wall-squat versus deadlift

ee wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I've been doing some wall squats with a light kettlebell. Is that
> good practice for learning how to deadlift properly?
>
> My deadlift and wall squat feel a lot different, but I'm not very
> flexible, so maybe that's the reason. So I'm wondering if I should
> wall squat until I have the flexibility and strength to get my toes
> against the wall before taking up the deadlift again. Is that a
> recommended progression?
>
> Thanks,
> Eric

I found the deadlift the less technically demandant of the big
compound movements. Because of my long legged self, my starting
position is much higher than an atg squat, and less flexibility is
needed.

I'd recommend you to read this article:
http://www.crossfit.com/journal/library/51-2006_AnalysisofDeadlift.pdf.
There are a lot of cues for the correct starting position and
execution of the deadlift.

Even an analysis of why lats are involved in the deadlift
 >> Stay informed about: wall-squat versus deadlift 

"ee" <ekurth.TakeThisOut@broadcom.com> schreef:

> I've been doing some wall squats with a light kettlebell.

Why?

> Is that good practice for learning how to deadlift properly?

No.

If you want to learn how to deadlift prpoerly, you should deadlift.
Properly. (serious...)

> My deadlift and wall squat feel a lot different, but I'm not very
> flexible, so maybe that's the reason. So I'm wondering if I should
> wall squat until I have the flexibility and strength to get my toes
> against the wall before taking up the deadlift again. Is that a
> recommended progression?

Why do you "wall squat"?

And why do you use a KB?

--
Pete
 >> Stay informed about: wall-squat versus deadlift 

"ee" <ekurth.TakeThisOut@broadcom.com> writes:

> Hello,
>
> I've been doing some wall squats with a light kettlebell. Is that
> good practice for learning how to deadlift properly?

Wall squats are a pretty good way to make squatting more difficult (so
that less weight needs to be used). However, they aren't particularly
similar to deadlifts.

The good news is that the deadlift is probably the easiest of the big
compounds lifts to learn.

> My deadlift and wall squat feel a lot different, but I'm not very
> flexible, so maybe that's the reason. So I'm wondering if I should
> wall squat until I have the flexibility and strength to get my toes
> against the wall before taking up the deadlift again. Is that a
> recommended progression?

Wait a second. In the wall squats that I am talking about the *back*
touches the wall. If your toes are touching the wall either you are
more flexible than you give yourself credit for, or one of us is
confused.

I think that the best way to learn how to deadlift is to deadlift.
Start light and film yourself if you are really concerned, but
deadlifting isn't that tricky. It's less technical than squatting,
for instance.

Jason
 >> Stay informed about: wall-squat versus deadlift 

In article <87k5wys9v3.fsf.DeleteThis@workhorse.earlhome>,
Jason Earl <jearl.DeleteThis@xmission.com> wrote:

> "ee" <ekurth.DeleteThis@broadcom.com> writes:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I've been doing some wall squats with a light kettlebell. Is that
> > good practice for learning how to deadlift properly?
>
> Wall squats are a pretty good way to make squatting more difficult (so
> that less weight needs to be used). However, they aren't particularly
> similar to deadlifts.
>
> The good news is that the deadlift is probably the easiest of the big
> compounds lifts to learn.
>
> > My deadlift and wall squat feel a lot different, but I'm not very
> > flexible, so maybe that's the reason. So I'm wondering if I should
> > wall squat until I have the flexibility and strength to get my toes
> > against the wall before taking up the deadlift again. Is that a
> > recommended progression?
>
> Wait a second. In the wall squats that I am talking about the *back*
> touches the wall. If your toes are touching the wall either you are
> more flexible than you give yourself credit for, or one of us is
> confused.
>
> I think that the best way to learn how to deadlift is to deadlift.
> Start light and film yourself if you are really concerned, but
> deadlifting isn't that tricky. It's less technical than squatting,
> for instance.
>
> Jason

Your thinking of the chair squat - back against the wall. The kettlebell
people have their version of training aimed at keeping the knees back.

http://www.performbetter.com/catalog/matriarch/OnePiecePage.asp_Q_PageID_
E_201_A_PageName_E_kettlebellvideo3

FWIW

--
Keith
 >> Stay informed about: wall-squat versus deadlift 

"Hobbes" <khobman800 RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:khobman800-AFA746.15521030032007@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> In article <87k5wys9v3.fsf RemoveThis @workhorse.earlhome>,
> Jason Earl <jearl RemoveThis @xmission.com> wrote:
>
>> "ee" <ekurth RemoveThis @broadcom.com> writes:
>>
>> > Hello,
>> >
>> > I've been doing some wall squats with a light kettlebell. Is that
>> > good practice for learning how to deadlift properly?
>>
>> Wall squats are a pretty good way to make squatting more difficult
>> (so
>> that less weight needs to be used). However, they aren't
>> particularly
>> similar to deadlifts.
>>
>> The good news is that the deadlift is probably the easiest of the big
>> compounds lifts to learn.
>>
>> > My deadlift and wall squat feel a lot different, but I'm not very
>> > flexible, so maybe that's the reason. So I'm wondering if I should
>> > wall squat until I have the flexibility and strength to get my toes
>> > against the wall before taking up the deadlift again. Is that a
>> > recommended progression?
>>
>> Wait a second. In the wall squats that I am talking about the *back*
>> touches the wall. If your toes are touching the wall either you are
>> more flexible than you give yourself credit for, or one of us is
>> confused.
>>
>> I think that the best way to learn how to deadlift is to deadlift.
>> Start light and film yourself if you are really concerned, but
>> deadlifting isn't that tricky. It's less technical than squatting,
>> for instance.
>>
>> Jason
>
> Your thinking of the chair squat - back against the wall. The
> kettlebell
> people have their version of training aimed at keeping the knees back.
>
> http://www.performbetter.com/catalog/matriarch/OnePiecePage.asp_Q_PageID_
> E_201_A_PageName_E_kettlebellvideo3
>
> FWIW

I do mine slightly different - no weight but touching fingers to the
ground, then trying to make the stance more narrow. It gets
significantly tougher the lower you go because you're basically trying
to defy the laws of physics - or so it seems!

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com


> --
> Keith
 >> Stay informed about: wall-squat versus deadlift 

Hobbes <khobman800.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> writes:

> In article <87k5wys9v3.fsf.TakeThisOut@workhorse.earlhome>,
> Jason Earl <jearl.TakeThisOut@xmission.com> wrote:
>
>> "ee" <ekurth.TakeThisOut@broadcom.com> writes:
>>
>> > Hello,
>> >
>> > I've been doing some wall squats with a light kettlebell. Is that
>> > good practice for learning how to deadlift properly?
>>
>> Wall squats are a pretty good way to make squatting more difficult (so
>> that less weight needs to be used). However, they aren't particularly
>> similar to deadlifts.
>>
>> The good news is that the deadlift is probably the easiest of the big
>> compounds lifts to learn.
>>
>> > My deadlift and wall squat feel a lot different, but I'm not very
>> > flexible, so maybe that's the reason. So I'm wondering if I should
>> > wall squat until I have the flexibility and strength to get my toes
>> > against the wall before taking up the deadlift again. Is that a
>> > recommended progression?
>>
>> Wait a second. In the wall squats that I am talking about the *back*
>> touches the wall. If your toes are touching the wall either you are
>> more flexible than you give yourself credit for, or one of us is
>> confused.
>>
>> I think that the best way to learn how to deadlift is to deadlift.
>> Start light and film yourself if you are really concerned, but
>> deadlifting isn't that tricky. It's less technical than squatting,
>> for instance.
>>
>> Jason
>
> Your thinking of the chair squat - back against the wall. The kettlebell
> people have their version of training aimed at keeping the knees back.
>
> http://www.performbetter.com/catalog/matriarch/OnePiecePage.asp_Q_PageID_
> E_201_A_PageName_E_kettlebellvideo3
>
> FWIW

Thanks for that. That looks like it would be a pretty good drill for
improving squat form. It is not a substitute for deadlifts though.

Jason
 >> Stay informed about: wall-squat versus deadlift 

"Jason Earl" <jearl DeleteThis @xmission.com> wrote in message
news:87k5wvorfu.fsf@workhorse.earlhome...
> Hobbes <khobman800 DeleteThis @yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> In article <87k5wys9v3.fsf DeleteThis @workhorse.earlhome>,
>> Jason Earl <jearl DeleteThis @xmission.com> wrote:
>>
>>> "ee" <ekurth DeleteThis @broadcom.com> writes:
>>>
>>> > Hello,
>>> >
>>> > I've been doing some wall squats with a light kettlebell. Is that
>>> > good practice for learning how to deadlift properly?
>>>
>>> Wall squats are a pretty good way to make squatting more difficult
>>> (so
>>> that less weight needs to be used). However, they aren't
>>> particularly
>>> similar to deadlifts.
>>>
>>> The good news is that the deadlift is probably the easiest of the
>>> big
>>> compounds lifts to learn.
>>>
>>> > My deadlift and wall squat feel a lot different, but I'm not very
>>> > flexible, so maybe that's the reason. So I'm wondering if I
>>> > should
>>> > wall squat until I have the flexibility and strength to get my
>>> > toes
>>> > against the wall before taking up the deadlift again. Is that a
>>> > recommended progression?
>>>
>>> Wait a second. In the wall squats that I am talking about the
>>> *back*
>>> touches the wall. If your toes are touching the wall either you are
>>> more flexible than you give yourself credit for, or one of us is
>>> confused.
>>>
>>> I think that the best way to learn how to deadlift is to deadlift.
>>> Start light and film yourself if you are really concerned, but
>>> deadlifting isn't that tricky. It's less technical than squatting,
>>> for instance.
>>>
>>> Jason
>>
>> Your thinking of the chair squat - back against the wall. The
>> kettlebell
>> people have their version of training aimed at keeping the knees
>> back.
>>
>> http://www.performbetter.com/catalog/matriarch/OnePiecePage.asp_Q_PageID_
>> E_201_A_PageName_E_kettlebellvideo3
>>
>> FWIW
>
> Thanks for that. That looks like it would be a pretty good drill for
> improving squat form. It is not a substitute for deadlifts though.

I've found that my back works better if I do either wall squats or
barbell overhead squats before I deadlift - does something to
extend/align the spine for me. In my case, neither movement comes
"naturally", which is to say that I can't really do either well for my
first rep, but after a few reps, I manage to rearrange something(s) in
my back, and then the lifts go OK after that.

This article discusses a third way that's also worked well for me,
although I confess it's my least favorite of the three - basically
standing with your back to a wall and then bringing your arms over your
head while keeping your heels, butt, back, and head touching the wall -
very similar to both the wall squat and the OHS.

http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/368?kbid=1022

Another way I've found to work on spinal alignment is in the pool - lay
on your back, fully extend your arms so that your hands overlap, your
elbows are locked out, and your upper arms are pressing against the
sides of your head. Now kick-only, on your back, the length of the
pool. People without sufficient strength and flexibility in their backs
and shoulders can't do this, and it took me a long time to be able to do
it myself, although many people find it quite easy.

Hope that list is helpful to someone.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com
 >> Stay informed about: wall-squat versus deadlift 

On Mar 30, 2:24 pm, Jason Earl <j....RemoveThis@xmission.com> wrote:
> "ee" <eku....RemoveThis@broadcom.com> writes:
> > Hello,
>
> > I've been doing some wall squats with a light kettlebell. Is that
> > good practice for learning how to deadlift properly?
>
> Wall squats are a pretty good way to make squatting more difficult (so
> that less weight needs to be used). However, they aren't particularly
> similar to deadlifts.
>
> The good news is that the deadlift is probably the easiest of the big
> compounds lifts to learn.
>
> > My deadlift and wall squat feel a lot different, but I'm not very
> > flexible, so maybe that's the reason. So I'm wondering if I should
> > wall squat until I have the flexibility and strength to get my toes
> > against the wall before taking up the deadlift again. Is that a
> > recommended progression?
>
> Wait a second. In the wall squats that I am talking about the *back*
> touches the wall. If your toes are touching the wall either you are
> more flexible than you give yourself credit for, or one of us is
> confused.
>
> I think that the best way to learn how to deadlift is to deadlift.
> Start light and film yourself if you are really concerned, but
> deadlifting isn't that tricky. It's less technical than squatting,
> for instance.
>
> Jason

The point of doing the wall squat was to try and feel what a good
deadlift movement would feel like. I'm talking about facing the wall
with toes a few inches away. It is impossible for me to stand with
toes against the wall and squat due inflexiblity in hams, calves.
Etc. Like most people, I don't have a coach. I just downloaded a
paper by Dan John and he is pictured working with a lifter to get them
to deadlift properly - holding a stick against their glutes, holding
their chin up, and having them stand with toes on thing weights to
force lifting thorugh the heels. Without a coach, I was hoping the
walll squat might force me to "grease the groove" of a good pull, even
if it's not exactly the same as a barbell deadlift.

So it's possible that in some sense I was correct in that wall squats
may be good to do before deadlifitng. Because they really force you
to keep an arch in your back, and stick your butt out as you go down,
and therefore keep your shins vertical, which is considered a big plus
for the knees.

Eric
 >> Stay informed about: wall-squat versus deadlift 

"ee" <ekurth.TakeThisOut@broadcom.com> wrote in message
news:1175534352.852663.124730@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 30, 2:24 pm, Jason Earl <j....TakeThisOut@xmission.com> wrote:
>> "ee" <eku....TakeThisOut@broadcom.com> writes:
>> > Hello,
>>
>> > I've been doing some wall squats with a light kettlebell. Is that
>> > good practice for learning how to deadlift properly?
>>
>> Wall squats are a pretty good way to make squatting more difficult
>> (so
>> that less weight needs to be used). However, they aren't
>> particularly
>> similar to deadlifts.
>>
>> The good news is that the deadlift is probably the easiest of the big
>> compounds lifts to learn.
>>
>> > My deadlift and wall squat feel a lot different, but I'm not very
>> > flexible, so maybe that's the reason. So I'm wondering if I should
>> > wall squat until I have the flexibility and strength to get my toes
>> > against the wall before taking up the deadlift again. Is that a
>> > recommended progression?
>>
>> Wait a second. In the wall squats that I am talking about the *back*
>> touches the wall. If your toes are touching the wall either you are
>> more flexible than you give yourself credit for, or one of us is
>> confused.
>>
>> I think that the best way to learn how to deadlift is to deadlift.
>> Start light and film yourself if you are really concerned, but
>> deadlifting isn't that tricky. It's less technical than squatting,
>> for instance.
>>
>> Jason
>
> The point of doing the wall squat was to try and feel what a good
> deadlift movement would feel like. I'm talking about facing the wall
> with toes a few inches away. It is impossible for me to stand with
> toes against the wall and squat due inflexiblity in hams, calves.
> Etc. Like most people, I don't have a coach. I just downloaded a
> paper by Dan John and he is pictured working with a lifter to get them
> to deadlift properly - holding a stick against their glutes, holding
> their chin up, and having them stand with toes on thing weights to
> force lifting thorugh the heels. Without a coach, I was hoping the
> walll squat might force me to "grease the groove" of a good pull, even
> if it's not exactly the same as a barbell deadlift.
>
> So it's possible that in some sense I was correct in that wall squats
> may be good to do before deadlifitng. Because they really force you
> to keep an arch in your back, and stick your butt out as you go down,
> and therefore keep your shins vertical, which is considered a big plus
> for the knees.

Please see my reply to Jason in this thread. What you're talking about
is good spinal alignment/extension, and it's a great idea to work on.
You don't necessarily need a coach for this. If you want Pavel's DVD
that includes the wall squat, with a lot of tips and tricks to
performing it well as it applies to powerlifting, here's a link:

http://www.dragondoor.com/dv024.html?kbid=1022

The move originates, as I know it, in Chinese Qigong practice, and Pavel
learned of it from John DuCane then adapted it to powerlifting. There's
a picture of John and Pavel teaching it, with me as the "victim," in the
article about me on the DD site.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com
 >> Stay informed about: wall-squat versus deadlift 

"ee" <ekurth.TakeThisOut@broadcom.com> writes:

> On Mar 30, 2:24 pm, Jason Earl <j....TakeThisOut@xmission.com> wrote:
>> "ee" <eku....TakeThisOut@broadcom.com> writes:
>> > Hello,
>>
>> > I've been doing some wall squats with a light kettlebell. Is that
>> > good practice for learning how to deadlift properly?
>>
>> Wall squats are a pretty good way to make squatting more difficult (so
>> that less weight needs to be used). However, they aren't particularly
>> similar to deadlifts.
>>
>> The good news is that the deadlift is probably the easiest of the big
>> compounds lifts to learn.
>>
>> > My deadlift and wall squat feel a lot different, but I'm not very
>> > flexible, so maybe that's the reason. So I'm wondering if I should
>> > wall squat until I have the flexibility and strength to get my toes
>> > against the wall before taking up the deadlift again. Is that a
>> > recommended progression?
>>
>> Wait a second. In the wall squats that I am talking about the *back*
>> touches the wall. If your toes are touching the wall either you are
>> more flexible than you give yourself credit for, or one of us is
>> confused.
>>
>> I think that the best way to learn how to deadlift is to deadlift.
>> Start light and film yourself if you are really concerned, but
>> deadlifting isn't that tricky. It's less technical than squatting,
>> for instance.
>>
>> Jason
>
> The point of doing the wall squat was to try and feel what a good
> deadlift movement would feel like. I'm talking about facing the
> wall with toes a few inches away. It is impossible for me to stand
> with toes against the wall and squat due inflexiblity in hams,
> calves. Etc. Like most people, I don't have a coach. I just
> downloaded a paper by Dan John and he is pictured working with a
> lifter to get them to deadlift properly - holding a stick against
> their glutes, holding their chin up, and having them stand with toes
> on thing weights to force lifting thorugh the heels. Without a
> coach, I was hoping the walll squat might force me to "grease the
> groove" of a good pull, even if it's not exactly the same as a
> barbell deadlift.

I was confused. Squatting with your toes against the wall is almost
certainly a good way to work on deadlift form.

I haven't had a whole lot of formal coaching either. I have found
that the most useful thing that I have done is to film myself. I
simply go over the cues that Dan John mentions in his book (I also
have his video) and then I see how I did by watching the film. It's
not ideal, but it certainly helps.

> So it's possible that in some sense I was correct in that wall
> squats may be good to do before deadlifitng. Because they really
> force you to keep an arch in your back, and stick your butt out as
> you go down, and therefore keep your shins vertical, which is
> considered a big plus for the knees.

Wall squats are good. I was confused.

Sorry,
Jason
 >> Stay informed about: wall-squat versus deadlift