unilateral db bench press

Dnia 2007-02-06 Steve Freides napisa³(a):
> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:eq8brj$6in$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
>> Dnia 2007-02-05 Steve Freides napisa³(a):
>>> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:eq7rro$pa9$2@inews.gazeta.pl...
>>>>>
>>>>> If you are interested in answers to the above, I suggest you read
>>>>> the
>>>>> other threads I mentioned on the DragonDoor forum, including a
>>>>> recent
>>>>> one in which Pavel addresses these questions directly. Do you need
>>>>> me
>>>>> to list the individual URL's for you?
>>>>
>>>> It would be good. I scanned through Pavel's recent posts and found
>>>> nothing.
>>>
>>> http://forum.dragondoor.com/training/message/447388/?kbid=1022
>>
>> Well, it looks rather awful, doesn't it? First, it's not written by
>> Pavel, but by somebody who says what Pavel said. Funny, if you ask
>> me.
>> Second, Master of Sports is an official title which is granted to
>> people who pass official tests, not to somebody who supposedly made
>> the number during an in-house competition. That is the gist of the
>> whole accusation, that Pavel doesn't have the right to use the title,
>> and it seems that he can't defend it.
>
> He has defended it to my satisfaction,

I doubt it, even if you feel compelled to believe him.

> if not to yours. If the military
> has the authority to award Levels I through 3, which are merely lower
> grades on the same scale, while I can see how it might not be considered
> official, neither is it a lift just witnessed by a bunch of guys
> standing around somewhere.

But he's not a Master of Sports, even if guys who supposedly witnessed
"his numbers" were not his friends. It's very simple. Either he has
the right to the title or he has none of it. If he can't prove his
rights, he's a fraud.

Besides, I doubt that he was ever actually able to do the numbers
required too. If he was able, why he never made it official? He had
all the time in the world after he leaved military service (he was
what? like eighteen?). And there is a problem with his technique too.
There are people who say that it's virtually impossible to do it RKC
style.

>> Regarding his plagiarism, I think that he is totally in the right
>> here,
>> if the article in question is this one:
>> http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/80/
>>
>> Smolov's article with this program can be found here:
>> http://www.powerlifting.ru/library/training/squat/s_articles/squat_smolov/
>>
>> It's not the same thing. Program is the same, but text is totally
>> different, and program is properly attributed to Smolov, so here it
>> works fine. Still, Smolov is Master of Sports and Pavel probably is
>> not. If this is true, Pavel is a fraud.
>
> Harsh words.

As long as they are true, Pavel's accuser has a point.

> The precise circumstances have been made known, and I
> highly doubt the fact that they weren't before now was the result of
> some sort of attempt to defraud. A better analogy might have been
> claiming an AAU world record when the meet was refereed by officials
> only certified to the state or national level - this has happened, and
> the records don't count, but neither does anyone accuse the lifters of
> not having made their lifts in legitimate circumstances. I do not know
> all the details of Pavel's GS MS and likely never will.

It's way simpler than that. If you want to claim the title of Master
of Sports, you must fulfill the requirements. If you don't, you have
no right for the title. Do not make it more complicated than it really
is. As far as we know it, there is virtually no proof of Pavel ever
being able to "make the numbers".

>>> I dislike things I didn't do being stated as facts.
>>
>> You've been accused by others, and I believed them. My apologies for
>> not checking it out. I would keep my mouth shut (you can do what you
>> like in your free time) if not for the fact, that your answer about
>> doing more and saying less looked like too much of a tempting pun.
>
> If I was going to learn to keep my mouth shut, I would have learned a
> long time ago. I have no interest in keeping my mouth shut, and ...

I wrote about myself here.

>>> I don't hate you.
>>> This is a public forum and you're entitled to say whatever you like
>>> here, as am I.
>>
>> Yes, and if I make a mistake, I look like a fool.
>
> ... I have no problem looking like a fool if I make mistakes because I
> learn from them. For the record, if I was given the right to moderate
> the DragonDoor forum, I would like do it in a very similar manner,
> including deleting many posts. It's a private, commercial venture and
> under no obligations to leave anything up on its boards it doesn't want
> to. Anyone who doesn't like the rules can leave; some have.

Again, I wrote about myself here. I was genuinely embarrassed for not
checking if what I read was true before writing it as a fact. I could
have asked, if I wasn't sure.

--
Andrzej Rosa
 >> Stay informed about: unilateral db bench press 

"Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:eqa1jf$f87$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
> Dnia 2007-02-06 Steve Freides napisa³(a):
>> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:eq8brj$6in$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
>>> Dnia 2007-02-05 Steve Freides napisa³(a):
>>>> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:eq7rro$pa9$2@inews.gazeta.pl...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you are interested in answers to the above, I suggest you read
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> other threads I mentioned on the DragonDoor forum, including a
>>>>>> recent
>>>>>> one in which Pavel addresses these questions directly. Do you
>>>>>> need
>>>>>> me
>>>>>> to list the individual URL's for you?
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be good. I scanned through Pavel's recent posts and
>>>>> found
>>>>> nothing.
>>>>
>>>> http://forum.dragondoor.com/training/message/447388/?kbid=1022
>>>
>>> Well, it looks rather awful, doesn't it? First, it's not written by
>>> Pavel, but by somebody who says what Pavel said. Funny, if you ask
>>> me.
>>> Second, Master of Sports is an official title which is granted to
>>> people who pass official tests, not to somebody who supposedly made
>>> the number during an in-house competition. That is the gist of the
>>> whole accusation, that Pavel doesn't have the right to use the
>>> title,
>>> and it seems that he can't defend it.
>>
>> He has defended it to my satisfaction,
>
> I doubt it, even if you feel compelled to believe him.
>
>> if not to yours. If the military
>> has the authority to award Levels I through 3, which are merely lower
>> grades on the same scale, while I can see how it might not be
>> considered
>> official, neither is it a lift just witnessed by a bunch of guys
>> standing around somewhere.
>
> But he's not a Master of Sports, even if guys who supposedly witnessed
> "his numbers" were not his friends. It's very simple. Either he has
> the right to the title or he has none of it. If he can't prove his
> rights, he's a fraud.
>
> Besides, I doubt that he was ever actually able to do the numbers
> required too. If he was able, why he never made it official? He had
> all the time in the world after he leaved military service (he was
> what? like eighteen?). And there is a problem with his technique too.
> There are people who say that it's virtually impossible to do it RKC
> style.

The technique Pavel teaches at the RKC is not the only way Pavel (or
anyone) can perform a kettlebell snatch. Iit is the choice he has made
as the first style to teach. The RKC is not a GS training camp and it
barely talks about GS. It is abundantly clear to anyone who has spent
time with Pavel in person, or even to anyone who has watched several of
his videos all the way through, that he is a superb technician with a
kettlebell. Even lowly little old me can choose to snatch hard (RKC)
style or GS style whenever I like. Pavel put it well by saying (and I'm
quoting from memory here), "You must have strength before you can endure
strength," which I take to mean that it is bad pedagogy to try to teach
someone GS before they have become familiar with the kettlebell as
primarily a way to develop strength, both limit strength and explosive
strength. With that foundation of strength, and with familiarity with
the kettlebell, one can reasonably embark on the GS journey. The RKC
system gives one the tools, the foundation, but it does not teach GS
specifically past a brief introduction, at least not at any training
session I've ever attended nor in any published materials I've seen.
The most recent RKC weekend I attended was as an assistant instructor in
August of 2006, and I think we spent perhaps one hour on GS, discussing
how it was different that everything else we were teaching, giving
everyone a chance to try out a few of basic training strategies, etc.,
but that was it. The rest of the weekend was all about hard style,
limit and explosive strength.

Forgive me for being so verbose but I hope I'm giving you a more
complete picture than the one you had and, in that interest, perhaps
more words are better than fewer.

I am far from a GS expert but I have learned enough to have made it to
the bottom level of the ranking charts (Level III) at a meet a few years
ago and also to have been certified an RKC. Just like there is olympic
lifting, powerlifting, and that 1000+ rep stuff that Dragan Radovic
does, all with the traditional weight implements of barbells and
dumbbells, so there are many, many ways in which one can use a
kettlebell. The fact that it's shaped differently gives it a different
spectrum of uses, but it's still quite a wide spectrum.

>>> Regarding his plagiarism, I think that he is totally in the right
>>> here,
>>> if the article in question is this one:
>>> http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/80/
>>>
>>> Smolov's article with this program can be found here:
>>> http://www.powerlifting.ru/library/training/squat/s_articles/squat_smolov/
>>>
>>> It's not the same thing. Program is the same, but text is totally
>>> different, and program is properly attributed to Smolov, so here it
>>> works fine. Still, Smolov is Master of Sports and Pavel probably is
>>> not. If this is true, Pavel is a fraud.
>>
>> Harsh words.
>
> As long as they are true, Pavel's accuser has a point.
>
>> The precise circumstances have been made known, and I
>> highly doubt the fact that they weren't before now was the result of
>> some sort of attempt to defraud. A better analogy might have been
>> claiming an AAU world record when the meet was refereed by officials
>> only certified to the state or national level - this has happened,
>> and
>> the records don't count, but neither does anyone accuse the lifters
>> of
>> not having made their lifts in legitimate circumstances. I do not
>> know
>> all the details of Pavel's GS MS and likely never will.
>
> It's way simpler than that. If you want to claim the title of Master
> of Sports, you must fulfill the requirements. If you don't, you have
> no right for the title. Do not make it more complicated than it
> really
> is. As far as we know it, there is virtually no proof of Pavel ever
> being able to "make the numbers".
>
>>>> I dislike things I didn't do being stated as facts.
>>>
>>> You've been accused by others, and I believed them. My apologies
>>> for
>>> not checking it out. I would keep my mouth shut (you can do what
>>> you
>>> like in your free time) if not for the fact, that your answer about
>>> doing more and saying less looked like too much of a tempting pun.
>>
>> If I was going to learn to keep my mouth shut, I would have learned a
>> long time ago. I have no interest in keeping my mouth shut, and ...
>
> I wrote about myself here.

Forgive me for misunderstanding, please - my mistake.

>>>> I don't hate you.
>>>> This is a public forum and you're entitled to say whatever you like
>>>> here, as am I.
>>>
>>> Yes, and if I make a mistake, I look like a fool.
>>
>> ... I have no problem looking like a fool if I make mistakes because
>> I
>> learn from them. For the record, if I was given the right to
>> moderate
>> the DragonDoor forum, I would like do it in a very similar manner,
>> including deleting many posts. It's a private, commercial venture
>> and
>> under no obligations to leave anything up on its boards it doesn't
>> want
>> to. Anyone who doesn't like the rules can leave; some have.
>
> Again, I wrote about myself here. I was genuinely embarrassed for not
> checking if what I read was true before writing it as a fact. I could
> have asked, if I wasn't sure.

OK, thanks for saying that.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com


> --
> Andrzej Rosa
 >> Stay informed about: unilateral db bench press 

On Tue, 6 Feb 2007 10:36:21 -0500, "Steve Freides"
<steve.DeleteThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:

>"Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:eqa1jf$f87$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
>> Dnia 2007-02-06 Steve Freides napisa³(a):
>>> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:eq8brj$6in$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
>>>> Dnia 2007-02-05 Steve Freides napisa³(a):
>>>>> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:eq7rro$pa9$2@inews.gazeta.pl...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you are interested in answers to the above, I suggest you read
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> other threads I mentioned on the DragonDoor forum, including a
>>>>>>> recent
>>>>>>> one in which Pavel addresses these questions directly. Do you
>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>> to list the individual URL's for you?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It would be good. I scanned through Pavel's recent posts and
>>>>>> found
>>>>>> nothing.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://forum.dragondoor.com/training/message/447388/?kbid=1022
>>>>
>>>> Well, it looks rather awful, doesn't it? First, it's not written by
>>>> Pavel, but by somebody who says what Pavel said. Funny, if you ask
>>>> me.
>>>> Second, Master of Sports is an official title which is granted to
>>>> people who pass official tests, not to somebody who supposedly made
>>>> the number during an in-house competition. That is the gist of the
>>>> whole accusation, that Pavel doesn't have the right to use the
>>>> title,
>>>> and it seems that he can't defend it.
>>>
>>> He has defended it to my satisfaction,
>>
>> I doubt it, even if you feel compelled to believe him.
>>
>>> if not to yours. If the military
>>> has the authority to award Levels I through 3, which are merely lower
>>> grades on the same scale, while I can see how it might not be
>>> considered
>>> official, neither is it a lift just witnessed by a bunch of guys
>>> standing around somewhere.
>>
>> But he's not a Master of Sports, even if guys who supposedly witnessed
>> "his numbers" were not his friends. It's very simple. Either he has
>> the right to the title or he has none of it. If he can't prove his
>> rights, he's a fraud.
>>
>> Besides, I doubt that he was ever actually able to do the numbers
>> required too. If he was able, why he never made it official? He had
>> all the time in the world after he leaved military service (he was
>> what? like eighteen?). And there is a problem with his technique too.
>> There are people who say that it's virtually impossible to do it RKC
>> style.
>
>The technique Pavel teaches at the RKC is not the only way Pavel (or
>anyone) can perform a kettlebell snatch. Iit is the choice he has made
>as the first style to teach. The RKC is not a GS training camp and it
>barely talks about GS. It is abundantly clear to anyone who has spent
>time with Pavel in person, or even to anyone who has watched several of
>his videos all the way through, that he is a superb technician with a
>kettlebell. Even lowly little old me can choose to snatch hard (RKC)
>style or GS style whenever I like. Pavel put it well by saying (and I'm
>quoting from memory here), "You must have strength before you can endure
>strength," which I take to mean that it is bad pedagogy to try to teach
>someone GS before they have become familiar with the kettlebell as
>primarily a way to develop strength, both limit strength and explosive
>strength. With that foundation of strength, and with familiarity with
>the kettlebell, one can reasonably embark on the GS journey. The RKC
>system gives one the tools, the foundation, but it does not teach GS
>specifically past a brief introduction, at least not at any training
>session I've ever attended nor in any published materials I've seen.
>The most recent RKC weekend I attended was as an assistant instructor in
>August of 2006, and I think we spent perhaps one hour on GS, discussing
>how it was different that everything else we were teaching, giving
>everyone a chance to try out a few of basic training strategies, etc.,
>but that was it. The rest of the weekend was all about hard style,
>limit and explosive strength.
>
>Forgive me for being so verbose but I hope I'm giving you a more
>complete picture than the one you had and, in that interest, perhaps
>more words are better than fewer.
>
>I am far from a GS expert but I have learned enough to have made it to
>the bottom level of the ranking charts (Level III) at a meet a few years
>ago and also to have been certified an RKC. Just like there is olympic
>lifting, powerlifting, and that 1000+ rep stuff that Dragan Radovic
>does, all with the traditional weight implements of barbells and
>dumbbells, so there are many, many ways in which one can use a
>kettlebell. The fact that it's shaped differently gives it a different
>spectrum of uses, but it's still quite a wide spectrum.
>
>>>> Regarding his plagiarism, I think that he is totally in the right
>>>> here,
>>>> if the article in question is this one:
>>>> http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/80/
>>>>
>>>> Smolov's article with this program can be found here:
>>>> http://www.powerlifting.ru/library/training/squat/s_articles/squat_smolov/
>>>>
>>>> It's not the same thing. Program is the same, but text is totally
>>>> different, and program is properly attributed to Smolov, so here it
>>>> works fine. Still, Smolov is Master of Sports and Pavel probably is
>>>> not. If this is true, Pavel is a fraud.
>>>
>>> Harsh words.
>>
>> As long as they are true, Pavel's accuser has a point.
>>
>>> The precise circumstances have been made known, and I
>>> highly doubt the fact that they weren't before now was the result of
>>> some sort of attempt to defraud. A better analogy might have been
>>> claiming an AAU world record when the meet was refereed by officials
>>> only certified to the state or national level - this has happened,
>>> and
>>> the records don't count, but neither does anyone accuse the lifters
>>> of
>>> not having made their lifts in legitimate circumstances. I do not
>>> know
>>> all the details of Pavel's GS MS and likely never will.
>>
>> It's way simpler than that. If you want to claim the title of Master
>> of Sports, you must fulfill the requirements. If you don't, you have
>> no right for the title. Do not make it more complicated than it
>> really
>> is. As far as we know it, there is virtually no proof of Pavel ever
>> being able to "make the numbers".
>>
>>>>> I dislike things I didn't do being stated as facts.
>>>>
>>>> You've been accused by others, and I believed them. My apologies
>>>> for
>>>> not checking it out. I would keep my mouth shut (you can do what
>>>> you
>>>> like in your free time) if not for the fact, that your answer about
>>>> doing more and saying less looked like too much of a tempting pun.
>>>
>>> If I was going to learn to keep my mouth shut, I would have learned a
>>> long time ago. I have no interest in keeping my mouth shut, and ...
>>
>> I wrote about myself here.
>
>Forgive me for misunderstanding, please - my mistake.
>
>>>>> I don't hate you.
>>>>> This is a public forum and you're entitled to say whatever you like
>>>>> here, as am I.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, and if I make a mistake, I look like a fool.
>>>
>>> ... I have no problem looking like a fool if I make mistakes because
>>> I
>>> learn from them. For the record, if I was given the right to
>>> moderate
>>> the DragonDoor forum, I would like do it in a very similar manner,
>>> including deleting many posts. It's a private, commercial venture
>>> and
>>> under no obligations to leave anything up on its boards it doesn't
>>> want
>>> to. Anyone who doesn't like the rules can leave; some have.
>>
>> Again, I wrote about myself here. I was genuinely embarrassed for not
>> checking if what I read was true before writing it as a fact. I could
>> have asked, if I wasn't sure.
>
>OK, thanks for saying that.
>
>-S-
>http://www.kbnj.com
>
>
>> --
>> Andrzej Rosa


You are RKC and GS Level III and you explained why Pavel teaches "hard
style" initially and why it can serve as an introduction to GS.
Someone who doesn't use KBs and who, based on a previous thread,
hasn't even read much in terms of how they can be used, has concluded
that Pavel's RKC style sucks. Apparently, it doesn't matter to him
that Pavel's efforts to educate people about stretching, joint health,
resilience, bodyweight exercises, martial arts, deadlifting,
bodybuilding with an emphasis on strength training, and kettlebells
have been so well-received among average folks as well as highly
reputable strength athletes and trainers. Maybe his rancor is based
on the fact that Pavel and his business partner are talented marketers
who are making money? Horrors!

His apparent dislike for Pavel based on who-knows-what "colors" his
reasoning and his less than persuasive judgments. Since your
back-and-forths with him are kind of edgy, I suppose it's possible
that you have contrbuted to his dislike of Pavel. Not that this would
be your fault.

People don't need to use KBs. People can get where they want to go
with DBs and a bar. On the other hand, there's an ever-growing number
of strength athletes, strength trainers, and athletes in general with
impressive credentials who are giving people straight information
about the benefits of KB training. Donnie Thompson is one of the
latest additions to this camp.

Reasonable, coherent explanations will never persuade people who are
locked into opposing you. Just remember that there are lots of
lurkers here and some of these might find what you are saying to be
reason enough to take a closer look.
 >> Stay informed about: unilateral db bench press 

On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:06:41 -0500, "Steve Freides"
<steve.RemoveThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:

>You are wasting your time .

In terms of changing Andrzej's mind? I'm sure you're right. In
terms of possibly educating people who can reasonably evaluate the
evidence, perhaps it's not a time-wasting exercise.

Of course, the payoff must come from the replies I receive, if any,
and whether or not I obtain permission to post such replies here.
 >> Stay informed about: unilateral db bench press 

<gedaloda.DeleteThis@thisguy.com> wrote in message
news:ol5ls2tf32qshrj3qrpafl11des9qorvnv@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:06:41 -0500, "Steve Freides"
> <steve.DeleteThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>
>>You are wasting your time .
>
> In terms of changing Andrzej's mind? I'm sure you're right. In
> terms of possibly educating people who can reasonably evaluate the
> evidence, perhaps it's not a time-wasting exercise.
>
> Of course, the payoff must come from the replies I receive, if any,
> and whether or not I obtain permission to post such replies here.

I think the case has been made already and repeating the same
information doesn't accomplish much.

Just my opinion.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com
 >> Stay informed about: unilateral db bench press 

On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 08:22:53 -0500, "Steve Freides"
<steve.RemoveThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:

><gedaloda.RemoveThis@thisguy.com> wrote in message
>news:ol5ls2tf32qshrj3qrpafl11des9qorvnv@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:06:41 -0500, "Steve Freides"
>> <steve.RemoveThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>>
>>>You are wasting your time .
>>
>> In terms of changing Andrzej's mind? I'm sure you're right. In
>> terms of possibly educating people who can reasonably evaluate the
>> evidence, perhaps it's not a time-wasting exercise.
>>
>> Of course, the payoff must come from the replies I receive, if any,
>> and whether or not I obtain permission to post such replies here.
>
>I think the case has been made already and repeating the same
>information doesn't accomplish much.
>
>Just my opinion.
>
>-S-
>http://www.kbnj.com

You're right. Frankly, I strongly doubt that any of the elite GS
athletes I mentioned would want to get involved in this petty affair.

Andrzej has no knowledge, credentials, experience or expertise with
respect to KBs, girevoy sport or otherwise, so it's unlikely that the
people I listed would deliberately embroil themselves in this silly,
contentious debate or expend energy to refute Andrzej's lame
assertions which are rooted in some mysterious dislike of Pavel.
 >> Stay informed about: unilateral db bench press 

In news:9v9ms2prtqv1lhn2p5vvcrvtq52ufrnhes@4ax.com,
gedaloda DeleteThis @thisguy.com <gedaloda DeleteThis @thisguy.com> typed:
> On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 08:22:53 -0500, "Steve Freides"
> <steve DeleteThis @fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>
>> <gedaloda DeleteThis @thisguy.com> wrote in message
>> news:ol5ls2tf32qshrj3qrpafl11des9qorvnv@4ax.com...
>>> On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:06:41 -0500, "Steve Freides"
>>> <steve DeleteThis @fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You are wasting your time .
>>>
>>> In terms of changing Andrzej's mind? I'm sure you're right. In
>>> terms of possibly educating people who can reasonably evaluate the
>>> evidence, perhaps it's not a time-wasting exercise.
>>>
>>> Of course, the payoff must come from the replies I receive, if any,
>>> and whether or not I obtain permission to post such replies here.
>>
>> I think the case has been made already and repeating the same
>> information doesn't accomplish much.
>>
>> Just my opinion.
>>
>> -S-
>> http://www.kbnj.com
>
> You're right. Frankly, I strongly doubt that any of the elite GS
> athletes I mentioned would want to get involved in this petty affair.
>
> Andrzej has no knowledge, credentials, experience or expertise with
> respect to KBs, girevoy sport or otherwise, so it's unlikely that the
> people I listed would deliberately embroil themselves in this silly,
> contentious debate or expend energy to refute Andrzej's lame
> assertions which are rooted in some mysterious dislike of Pavel.

Nothing mysterious about someone disliking Pavel!

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
 >> Stay informed about: unilateral db bench press