On topic: problem with squats

In article <4qe1egFmrjhkU1 DeleteThis @individual.net>,
"Bully" <bully1 DeleteThis @proteinbars.co.ok> wrote:

> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
> appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
> leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
> thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of what
> he squats.
>
> Any thoughts?

Weak glutes and hamstrings.

Front squat comes immediately to mind to help with technique. If you
have access the glute/ham/gastroc bench would be good. If not - manual
hamstring curls, reverse hyper, etc.

--
Keith
 >> Stay informed about: On topic: problem with squats 

"Bully" <bully1.DeleteThis@proteinbars.co.ok> schreef:

> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
> appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
> leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
> thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of
> what he squats.

> Any thoughts?

I suspect his legs are long wrt his torso.

My legs are short wrt my torso, and when i am "in the whole" i do not
incline that much forward.

Also, this seem to be a problem with people who are over 6 feet. Shorter
people usually have torsos just as long as people who are 2-3 inches taller.
The extra inches are in the legs, which also make distance you have to move
the weight longer.

BTW, how does he deadlift? I mean, what seems to be the dominant joint and
muscles used?

----
Pete
 >> Stay informed about: On topic: problem with squats 

Dnia 2006-10-27 Hobbes napisa³(a):
> In article <4qe1egFmrjhkU1.RemoveThis@individual.net>,
> "Bully" <bully1.RemoveThis@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote:
>
>> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
>> appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
>> leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
>> thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of what
>> he squats.
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>
> Weak glutes and hamstrings.

So he leans forward to transfer the load to those weak muscles? I
think that weak quads is the problem.

> Front squat comes immediately to mind to help with technique.

And this makes sense. More quad dominant exercise to fix quad weakness.

[...]
--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: On topic: problem with squats 

In article <ehsvo5$gun$1@inews.gazeta.pl>,
Andrzej Rosa <bakters DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:

> Dnia 2006-10-27 Hobbes napisa³(a):
> > In article <4qe1egFmrjhkU1 DeleteThis @individual.net>,
> > "Bully" <bully1 DeleteThis @proteinbars.co.ok> wrote:
> >
> >> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
> >> appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
> >> leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
> >> thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of
> >> what
> >> he squats.
> >>
> >> Any thoughts?
> >
> > Weak glutes and hamstrings.
>
> So he leans forward to transfer the load to those weak muscles? I
> think that weak quads is the problem.
>
> > Front squat comes immediately to mind to help with technique.
>
> And this makes sense. More quad dominant exercise to fix quad weakness.
>
> [...]


I'd disagree with that. Not in the hole in a deep squat. You start with
hip extension. Glutes and hamstings. He is leaning forward to get the
lower back more involved, not the glutes and hammies, IMO. I'd have to
see it, but weak quads are not likely the problem of leaning excessively
forward coming out of the hole.

Another thing may be creating intra-abdominal pressure and static
strength in the abs and lower back. But not likely if he is a strong
deadlifter. I'm betting he deadlifts with his hips relatively high and
uses a lot of lower back. So I stick with hams and glutes.

--
Keith
 >> Stay informed about: On topic: problem with squats 

John Hanson wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:22:35 +0100, "Bully" <bully1.DeleteThis@proteinbars.co.ok>
> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
>> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his
>> squats, appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight
>> further]. He leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the
>> hole". I initially thought he might have a weak lower back but he
>> deadlifts approx 140% of what he squats.
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>
> Have him do some front squats. That will correct the problem.

Are you sure?

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
 >> Stay informed about: On topic: problem with squats 

Hobbes wrote:
> In article <4qe1egFmrjhkU1.RemoveThis@individual.net>,
> "Bully" <bully1.RemoveThis@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote:
>
>> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his
>> squats, appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight
>> further]. He leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the
>> hole". I initially thought he might have a weak lower back but he
>> deadlifts approx 140% of what he squats.
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>

> Weak glutes and hamstrings.

Glutes was one area I considered, not so hammies!

Could the corollary to this be over developed ab/adductors?

>
> Front squat comes immediately to mind to help with technique. If you
> have access the glute/ham/gastroc bench would be good. If not - manual
> hamstring curls, reverse hyper, etc.

OK, cheers.

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
 >> Stay informed about: On topic: problem with squats 

In article <4qecipFmnpgfU1 RemoveThis @individual.net>,
"Bully" <bully1 RemoveThis @proteinbars.co.ok> wrote:

> Hobbes wrote:
> > In article <4qe1egFmrjhkU1 RemoveThis @individual.net>,
> > "Bully" <bully1 RemoveThis @proteinbars.co.ok> wrote:
> >
> >> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his
> >> squats, appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight
> >> further]. He leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the
> >> hole". I initially thought he might have a weak lower back but he
> >> deadlifts approx 140% of what he squats.
> >>
> >> Any thoughts?
> >
>
> > Weak glutes and hamstrings.
>
> Glutes was one area I considered, not so hammies!
>
> Could the corollary to this be over developed ab/adductors?

I think so. Certainly if the lower back is a strength (ie.
over-developed) it could happen. Ditto for the adductors (more so than
the abductors in this case). You tend to use what works!

Hamstrings are also hip extensors, remember.

--
Keith
 >> Stay informed about: On topic: problem with squats 

Dnia 2006-10-27 Hobbes napisa³(a):
> In article <ehsvo5$gun$1@inews.gazeta.pl>,
> Andrzej Rosa <bakters.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Dnia 2006-10-27 Hobbes napisa³(a):
>> > In article <4qe1egFmrjhkU1.TakeThisOut@individual.net>,
>> > "Bully" <bully1.TakeThisOut@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote:
>> >
>> >> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
>> >> appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
>> >> leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
>> >> thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of
>> >> what
>> >> he squats.
>> >>
>> >> Any thoughts?
>> >
>> > Weak glutes and hamstrings.
>>
>> So he leans forward to transfer the load to those weak muscles? I
>> think that weak quads is the problem.
>>
>> > Front squat comes immediately to mind to help with technique.
>>
>> And this makes sense. More quad dominant exercise to fix quad weakness.
>>
>> [...]
>
>
> I'd disagree with that. Not in the hole in a deep squat. You start with
> hip extension. Glutes and hamstings. He is leaning forward to get the
> lower back more involved, not the glutes and hammies, IMO. I'd have to
> see it, but weak quads are not likely the problem of leaning excessively
> forward coming out of the hole.
>
> Another thing may be creating intra-abdominal pressure and static
> strength in the abs and lower back. But not likely if he is a strong
> deadlifter. I'm betting he deadlifts with his hips relatively high and
> uses a lot of lower back. So I stick with hams and glutes.

All right. It seems counterintuitive, but if you are saying something
I listen.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: On topic: problem with squats 

"Hobbes" <khobman800 RemoveThis @yahoo.com> schreef:

>> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
>> appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
>> leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
>> thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of
>> what
>> he squats.

>> Any thoughts?

> Weak glutes and hamstrings.

If he can pull 140% of what he can squat, i think its safe to assume he has
strong glutes and hams.

I am not sure, but i think its a pretty good assumption.

> Front squat comes immediately to mind to help with technique.

Seems to me that front squats will stress the quads more then back squats.
Dont you think good mornings can solve this problem?

----
Pete
 >> Stay informed about: On topic: problem with squats 

In article <4541ff87$0$82054$dbd4d001@news.wanadoo.nl>,
"Pete" <phoutstra.TakeThisOut@wanadoo.nl> wrote:

> "Hobbes" <khobman800.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> schreef:
>
> >> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
> >> appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
> >> leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
> >> thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of
> >> what
> >> he squats.
>
> >> Any thoughts?
>
> > Weak glutes and hamstrings.
>
> If he can pull 140% of what he can squat, i think its safe to assume he has
> strong glutes and hams.

Nope. He could be hoisting all lower back. And you don't come out of the
hole in a deep squat using your quads that much. More glutes and
hamdstrings. Hip extension. More quads once the joint angle at the knee
is more favourable.

Also remember strength is specific to joint angles for partial
movements. In terms of knee and hip extension the deadlift is a partial
movement. Not so the deep squat.

--
Keith
 >> Stay informed about: On topic: problem with squats 

"Hobbes" <khobman800 RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:khobman800-C7D149.07505027102006@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> I'd disagree with that. Not in the hole in a deep squat. You start with
> hip extension. Glutes and hamstings. He is leaning forward to get the
> lower back more involved, not the glutes and hammies, IMO. I'd have to
> see it, but weak quads are not likely the problem of leaning excessively
> forward coming out of the hole.
>
> Another thing may be creating intra-abdominal pressure and static
> strength in the abs and lower back. But not likely if he is a strong
> deadlifter. I'm betting he deadlifts with his hips relatively high and
> uses a lot of lower back. So I stick with hams and glutes.

I think you've nailed an issue I'm having, as I'm trying to get back into
lifting since a back injury. Thanks. I'm going to focus on my glutes and
hamstrings to see if I can't sit back on my squats a little better.

I have short thighs relative to my torso. My deadlifts were really strong
before I hurt my back, but I've always had to struggle with my squat form
(tendency to tip forward, like the guy Bully describes) and could never
advance very far in terms of weight with my squats, and I'm even worse now
that I'm weak all over. I do notice that my hamstrings are quite weak on my
hamstring curls, relative to my quads, etc. I'm going to work with some
forward squats with my BF -- I've never done forward squats.

Thanks again.

ep
(No, I didn't hurt my back lifting. It was a backpacking/mountain-climbing
injury. I sprained four or five thoracic back ribs on my left side, while
(and probably because, in part) my right rhomboid was already atrophied
before that from *another* backpacking injury many years ago.)
 >> Stay informed about: On topic: problem with squats 

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 11:47:20 +0200, "Pete" <phoutstra.TakeThisOut@wanadoo.nl> wrote:

>"Bully" <bully1.TakeThisOut@proteinbars.co.ok> schreef:
>
>> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
>> appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight further]. He
>> leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the hole". I initially
>> thought he might have a weak lower back but he deadlifts approx 140% of
>> what he squats.
>
>> Any thoughts?
>
>I suspect his legs are long wrt his torso.
>
>My legs are short wrt my torso, and when i am "in the whole" i do not
>incline that much forward.
>
>Also, this seem to be a problem with people who are over 6 feet. Shorter
>people usually have torsos just as long as people who are 2-3 inches taller.
>The extra inches are in the legs, which also make distance you have to move
>the weight longer.

So, what is your _solution_? Have his femurs shortened?
 >> Stay informed about: On topic: problem with squats 

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