i actually squat and bench press on the same days

Bully wrote:
> xyzer.DeleteThis@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Bully wrote:
> >> xyzer.DeleteThis@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>> Sag wrote:
> >>>> xyzer.DeleteThis@hotmail.com ha escrito:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I do this about once every 8 days or so...
> >>>>
> >>>> Monday: Squat, bench and bar rows.
> >>>> Wednesday: Squat, behind the neck press and Deadlifts
> >>>> Friday: Squat, bench and bar rows.
> >>>>
> >>>> alternating days rotator cuff and ab work.
> >>>>
> >>>> Gains have not stopped.
> >>>
> >>> All I have to say is I hope you have good genetics b/c it seems like
> >>> perhaps you could be looking at overtraining...
> >>
> >> Why do you say this? Do you know anything about overtraining? If he
> >> IS overtrained would he still be getting gains?
> >>
> >>> but maybe not depending
> >>
> >> Oh, maybe not eh? Do you know anything about overtraining? If he IS
> >> overtrained would he still be getting gains?
> >>
> >
> > Well, I was getting gains for a while in the beginning, but I
> > continued at that beginning intensity for way too long and basically
> > overtrained...
>
> How did you know you were overtrained? How long did you stop training for?
>
>

<snip>

I was actually bench pressing every other day in the beginning -- my
diet was very good, but I was (and probably still am in many ways)
very ignorant thinking one day's rest was enough. I was infatuated
with the bench press (and still am kind of) basically because of my
own personal progress with it. But, I knew it was time to stop doing
it every other day when my elbow started giving me problems.

The elbow issues were probably also caused by throwing a football too
much. At that time, the highest I could go would be 160 maybe two or
three times. I weighed under 130 lbs, around 128 most of the time. I
only recently gained 20 lbs after being in the real world for the last
year and a half or so (went five years to college and studied for a
prof examination for a year after that) and having to sit down all day.


Anyway, so , I don't know... 2 years ago or so I decided to cut back to
give myself at least a 2 day break between workouts. This worked for a
while... diet was spectacular...etc. I benched 190 lbs at a bodyweight
of 128 lbs -- again, I realize this is nothing compared to many of you,
but great for me. Then, though, I got shoulder problems, specifically
rotator cuff problems. In fact, you can probably read about it in this
group's archive.

So, I took a month off completely. And I got incredibly weak in the
process. I couldn't even bench 175 once when I went back. And it has
since been an uphill climb to get back to where I was, but I all of the
sudden am now back, after just recently having had 175 feel heavy for
me only to be able to do 2 reps or so max.

Now, though, the squat is becoming more fun to me honestly. I have
about a 31 inch vertical leap (which strangely enough I have not lost
since gaining 20 lbs even though I am a little fatter) and have hung on
a basketball goal before, but it'd be nice perhaps to dunk one day.
Squatting might help with that a little bit, and I like it because it
feels like I'm wrestling the bar. I used to hate squatting, so go
figure.
 >> Stay informed about: i actually squat and bench press on the same days 

Dnia 2006-12-28 Curt napisa³(a):
> Andrzej Rosa wrote:
> [...]
>
>> I'm <snip> not just an average gainer
>> who likes to whine but a real hardgainer.
>
> (glares)
>
> I resemble that remark. S
>
> CliffsNotes: That's what I'd call a play on words, Andrzej. There's a
> common retort, "I resent that remark," which indicates dissatisfaction
> with what someone has said - typically an unjust or false accusation,
> however the switch to the word resemble serves as an indication of
> admission to the accusation while, yes, also indicating, perhaps,
> unwarranted simultaneous resentment.
>
> (cough)

. I wasn't referring to you personally, of course, but if you think
that it applies, it actually may.

> Seriously, I think the definition of easy, average, and hard gainer are
> relative and highly variable dependent on a person's perspective,
> goals, expectations, and experience.

Sure, it does, but a solution of just training less often is still not
good. Though a three times a week full body routine makes sense.

>> Andrzej Rosa 1127R
>
> And in the spirit of the misc. portion of misc.fitness.weights:

Sure. We gotta stay off topic.

> Had any of the bikes out recently?

Yeah. I got a very dead battery out of my bike, so no luck with
actually riding.

> An unseasonably warm weather spell
> has covered most of the Central and Eastern states thanks to an
> agreeable jet stream. And due to that, my motorcycle has seen more than
> a few miles recently. I suspect snow will fall in July.

Well, Greenland is still covered with ice, and there is no people
herding sheep on it, so nothing out of usual up to now. Through middle
ages Greenlanders had their own bishop, so it was warmer then than it
is now. I guess, they must have burned some huge campfires to cause a
global warming in middle ages...

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: i actually squat and bench press on the same days 

Andrzej Rosa wrote:
> Dnia 2006-12-28 Curt napisa³(a):
> > Andrzej Rosa wrote:
> > [...]
> >
> >> I'm <snip> not just an average gainer
> >> who likes to whine but a real hardgainer.
[...]
> . I wasn't referring to you personally, of course,
> but if you think that it applies, it actually may.

heh

> > <snip> definition <snip> hard gainer <snip>
> > relative and highly variable dependent on a
> > person's perspective, goals, expect<snip>
>
> Sure, it does, but a solution of just training less
> often is still not good. Though a three times a
> week full body routine makes sense.

I'm maintaining the ol' one more rep, one more pound goal approach. May
add some additional exercises, though.

[...]

> > Had any of the bikes out recently?
>
> Yeah. I got a very dead battery out of my bike,
> so no luck with actually riding.

I just pulled the bike out of storage last week expecting the same
treatment - a very dead battery - but the bike pleasantly surprised me
and started after SEVERAL attempts.

I'll be riding to the gym in about two hours. Had it out all day today.
A gorgeous day!

> > An unseasonably warm weather spell has
> > covered most of the Central and Eastern states
> > thanks to an agreeable jet stream. <snip>
>
> Well, Greenland is still covered with ice, and there is
> no people herding sheep on it, so nothing out of usual
> up to now. Through middle ages Greenlanders had their
> own bishop, so it was warmer then than it is now. I guess,
> they must have burned some huge campfires to cause a
> global warming in middle ages...

HA! Weren't there huge campfires to deal with Bubonic plague deaths?
Hopefully that didn't touch Greenland at all.

Hmmm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bubonic_plague_map.PNG

> Andrzej Rosa 1127R

And in non-deadly infectious disease news, I visited the doctor today
to inquire about my right shoulder. No stabbing pains. Just a feeling
that, hey, something's not right. Had two X-rays taken and will wait to
hear what the doctor has to say. The technician said that, typically,
an X-ray is required before an MRI can be completed. An MRI, it's my
understanding, but I could be wrong, will be able to see if there's an
soft tissue problems. It's obvious to me that there are no broken
bones.

My ten-buck co-pay bought me a few laughs with the technician, an,
"Aaahh, surgery can just make things worse," from the doctor, and a bit
of peace of mind that I actually visited the doctor rather than
ignoring the nuisance feeling that something's, well, not right.

Currently, when benching, I lower the bar to my lower pecs and then
stairstep the bar up to the end stroke rather than lowering to mid or
upper pec and then pressing. That seems to take the twinge out of the
benching equation.

And, yes, the Andrzej Flyes continue as well.

My rotator rehabilitation includes your flyes
<http://groups.google.com/group/misc.fitness.weights/msg/7aacc84ed16f2019>
and what I call pull-ins
<http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Subscapularis/CBInternalRotation.html>
and pull-outs
<http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Infraspinatus/DBLyingExternalRotation.html>.


--
Curt
 >> Stay informed about: i actually squat and bench press on the same days 

John Williams wrote:
> Shute wrote:

> > Now you sound like JMW. Why not just help them instead of
> > "put them straight"?
>
> And how do you propose to "just help them," Shute? By posting
> a link to some article in bodybuilding.com?

Alternatively, you could use your vast resources and incredible
generosity of spirit combined with intelligence to, oh, I don't know,
perhaps post a link to some PubMed-type literature. Why, maybe you
could even go so far as to offer a translation of sorts so the layman
could understand that PubMed-type information. Aid the mooks, you know,
the great unwashed in their quest for assistance.

Here's my proposal. Pull your head out of your, uh, hat. (Did the
janitor take yours?) And, hey, post useful info rather than distracting
diatribes. (Yeah, Cohen, I know, I know.)

> I like to believe that people still come to MFW looking for critical
> analysis. Those people have web browsers just like you do, Shute.

Cool.

You'd be surprised how many times people just don't want to be bothered
with seeeeearching for something. Hnh! Actually, how could you be
surprised? It's human nature, isn't it? Many if not most people are
hard working, yes, but for certain things, hey, they'd just prefer it
be handed to them. Convenience. Do they have convenience stores in your
neck of the woods, John? If so, do you make your own coffee when you
stop at one? Grind the beans? Drill for oil and then process it until
you've got yourself a fill-up for your vehicle? Or, who'dathunkit, do
you drive up, fill it up, pay for your gas and then grab a cup of joe
for the road?

> They don't need you

That's just hurtful, John. They need Shute. He's a nice guy. And people
will ALWAYS be looking for someone to fight with over a parking space!
;o) Shute! Don't you say [expletive deleted] to me, you [expletive
deleted]! Don't you do it!

> and Captain Google

I embrace the nickname. Thank you from the depths of my search string.
Now, please, stand back! This looks like a job for...

Dant-dant-DAAANNNN!!!! CapTAIN GOOOO-GLE!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/curt_james/RAB/captgoogle.jpg

A handsome devil, yes?

> to say, "Hey, lookee at the link I found for you!" Many of them
> have already seen the Reader's Digest version put out by the
> supplement sellers, but they want to hear the *other side* of
> the story.

And, so, another proposal: OFFER THEM that *other side* of the story,
John.

Say, while I'm here, care to explain your whole conduit-enabler
philosophy? No? No surprise, you hypocrite.

--
Curt
 >> Stay informed about: i actually squat and bench press on the same days 

Bully wrote:
> "Shute" wrote
[...]

> > Now you sound like JMW. Why not just help
> > them instead of "put them straight"?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiom

Ironic?

HEY BULLY! PEOPLE DON'T NEED YOU TO SAY, "HEY, LOOKIE AT THE LINK I
FOUND FOR YOU!" he yelled in an attempt to circumvent the box of cotton
shoved in Bully's ears.

Or, hey, that's what my bestestest buddy says.

Hth.

--
Curt
 >> Stay informed about: i actually squat and bench press on the same days 

Andrzej Rosa wrote:
> Dnia 2006-12-28 Curt napisa³(a):
> > Andrzej Rosa wrote:
> >>
> >> Sure, it does, but a solution of just training less
> >> often is still not good. Though a three times a
> >> week full body routine makes sense.
> >
> > I'm maintaining the ol' one more rep, one more pound goal approach. May
> > add some additional exercises, though.
>
> Well, with slight adjustments in a technique with which you are
> executing an exercise, it works a bit like more exercises. For example
> for dips, I sometimes lean way forward for more chest involvement,
> sometimes I try to keep my legs horizontal for more abs, and sometimes
> I do regular dips for more triceps work. I could get all that with
> more exercises, but not within the same time frame.

The gym has one of those dip/chin-assist machines. I hate to give up
the bench although, yeah, at a buck twenty-five # for reps, what's the
use? Perhaps I'll switch that in tonight's workout. Going for a coffee
momentarily and then the gym.

> >> > Had any of the bikes out recently?
> >><snip>
>
> Ice around here. Bike's out.

The jet stream is my friend. It's supposed to hit 50 degrees F
tomorrow. F as in FRIGGING FANTASTIC! No snow, no ice, no
precipitation, no wind, and LOTS of sunshine. It's a motorcyclist's
dream world.

> > And in non-deadly infectious disease news, I visited the doctor today
> > to inquire about my right shoulder. No stabbing pains. Just a feeling
> > that, hey, something's not right. Had two X-rays taken and <snip>
> >
> > Currently, when benching, I lower the bar to my lower pecs and then
> > stairstep the bar up to the end stroke rather than lowering to mid or
> > upper pec and then pressing. That seems to take the twinge out of the
> > benching equation.
>
> Still, be rather careful with that stuff. It took me some time to give
> up on benching, but since I did I've no more shoulder problems. Dips
> do work my lower chest well enough, especially if I put some effort
> into doing them the right way.

Old timer Vince Gironda has some specific opinions on dips, iirc.

> I could have fine upper chest with Oly press, if I cared. Benches
> aren't necessary. Actually, they are shoulder wreckers.

My bench has never been a success story. I think I effed up a tendon in
my right shoulder by using too much weight on a vertical bench press
machine. Still, I took off a few weeks and the shoulder didn't get much
better. Impingement might just be the word of the day. >S

> > And, yes, the Andrzej Flyes continue as well.
> >
> > My rotator rehabilitation includes your flyes
> ><http://groups.google.com/group/misc.fitness.weights/msg/7aacc84ed16f2019>
> > and what I call pull-ins
> ><http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Subscapularis/CBInternalRotation.html>
> > and pull-outs
> ><http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Infraspinatus/DBLyingExternalRotation.html>.
>
> Well, I don't know why pull-ins are supposed to be needed, but maybe
> they are. External rotations are more like it, and probably a Cuban
> press would be even better, but I've my doubts about their efficacy at
> fixing already damaged shoulder. You may fix the imbalances to a
> point, but will they heal your tendon? I doubt it.

Cuban press? Will Google. To wit:

http://www.99shadesofgrey.com/fitness/2005/08/09/cuban_press.php

And, yes, healing the tendon is what I'm interested in.

> Once again, what did it for me was stopping benching and concentrating
> on one-armed snatches. I did a sort of power snatch version when you
> lean forward and to the side to get under the bar, and it worked well.
> I'd suggest replacing pull-ins with waiter walks, when you walk for
> time or distance with a weight held overhead.

Well, if I haven't been tossed out of the gym on my ear for completing
Andrzej Flyes then I suppose they'll look the other way as I do waiter
walks.

"Yes, that's the skinny bald guy. Just leave him alone. His workouts
may be unusual but he buys a Gatorade every night."

> It will develop your "stability muscles" on its own, without going into
> details. You need stability to, well, stabilize big weight held overhead
> with one hand.

As always, Andrzej, thank you for the recommendations.

> Andrzej Rosa 1127R

--
Curt
 >> Stay informed about: i actually squat and bench press on the same days 

Dnia 2006-12-28 Curt napisa³(a):
> Andrzej Rosa wrote:
>>
>> Sure, it does, but a solution of just training less
>> often is still not good. Though a three times a
>> week full body routine makes sense.
>
> I'm maintaining the ol' one more rep, one more pound goal approach. May
> add some additional exercises, though.

Well, with slight adjustments in a technique with which you are
executing an exercise, it works a bit like more exercises. For example
for dips, I sometimes lean way forward for more chest involvement,
sometimes I try to keep my legs horizontal for more abs, and sometimes
I do regular dips for more triceps work. I could get all that with
more exercises, but not within the same time frame.

>> > Had any of the bikes out recently?
>>
>> Yeah. I got a very dead battery out of my bike,
>> so no luck with actually riding.
>
> I just pulled the bike out of storage last week expecting the same
> treatment - a very dead battery - but the bike pleasantly surprised me
> and started after SEVERAL attempts.
>
> I'll be riding to the gym in about two hours. Had it out all day today.
> A gorgeous day!

Ice around here. Bike's out.

> And in non-deadly infectious disease news, I visited the doctor today
> to inquire about my right shoulder. No stabbing pains. Just a feeling
> that, hey, something's not right. Had two X-rays taken and will wait to
> hear what the doctor has to say. The technician said that, typically,
> an X-ray is required before an MRI can be completed. An MRI, it's my
> understanding, but I could be wrong, will be able to see if there's an
> soft tissue problems. It's obvious to me that there are no broken
> bones.
>
> My ten-buck co-pay bought me a few laughs with the technician, an,
> "Aaahh, surgery can just make things worse," from the doctor, and a bit
> of peace of mind that I actually visited the doctor rather than
> ignoring the nuisance feeling that something's, well, not right.
>
> Currently, when benching, I lower the bar to my lower pecs and then
> stairstep the bar up to the end stroke rather than lowering to mid or
> upper pec and then pressing. That seems to take the twinge out of the
> benching equation.

Still, be rather careful with that stuff. It took me some time to give
up on benching, but since I did I've no more shoulder problems. Dips
do work my lower chest well enough, especially if I put some effort
into doing them the right way. I could have fine upper chest with Oly
press, if I cared. Benches aren't necessary. Actually, they are
shoulder wreckers.

> And, yes, the Andrzej Flyes continue as well.
>
> My rotator rehabilitation includes your flyes
><http://groups.google.com/group/misc.fitness.weights/msg/7aacc84ed16f2019>
> and what I call pull-ins
><http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Subscapularis/CBInternalRotation.html>
> and pull-outs
><http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Infraspinatus/DBLyingExternalRotation.html>.

Well, I don't know why pull-ins are supposed to be needed, but maybe
they are. External rotations are more like it, and probably a Cuban
press would be even better, but I've my doubts about their efficacy at
fixing already damaged shoulder. You may fix the imbalances to a
point, but will they heal your tendon? I doubt it.

Once again, what did it for me was stopping benching and concentrating
on one-armed snatches. I did a sort of power snatch version when you
lean forward and to the side to get under the bar, and it worked well.
I'd suggest replacing pull-ins with waiter walks, when you walk for
time or distance with a weight held overhead. It will develop your
"stability muscles" on its own, without going into details. You need
stability to, well, stabilize big weight held overhead with one hand.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: i actually squat and bench press on the same days 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: i actually squat and bench press on the same days 

Dnia 2006-12-29 Curt napisa³(a):
> Andrzej Rosa wrote:
>> Dnia 2006-12-28 Curt napisa³(a):
>>
>> Well, with slight adjustments in a technique with which you are
>> executing an exercise, it works a bit like more exercises. For example
>> for dips, I sometimes lean way forward for more chest involvement,
>> sometimes I try to keep my legs horizontal for more abs, and sometimes
>> I do regular dips for more triceps work. I could get all that with
>> more exercises, but not within the same time frame.
>
> The gym has one of those dip/chin-assist machines.

Why not work yourself up to doing unassisted dips? You can even
practice at home using backs of chairs. It's slightly unstable, but
way more stable than blast straps, which I use now. With chairs you
will be able to provide your own assistance with legs, but at the same
time you'll know that it's just a temporary crutch, not an exercise, so
it will actually work.

Many sets of low reps do work, no matter what Darden might think that
he knows.

> I hate to give up
> the bench although, yeah, at a buck twenty-five # for reps, what's the
> use? Perhaps I'll switch that in tonight's workout. Going for a coffee
> momentarily and then the gym.

So don't give up totally, just temporarily . Anyway, pushups will
most probably be safer for you than benches. You may try to do semi
one-armed pushups by doing them with one arm fully outstretched to the
side and switching sides with every rep. Pushups and dips let your
shoulder blades move freely, so they are better option. As are
supposedly "worthless" cross-overs. Cross-overs isolate your pecs, but
superset them with diamond pushups and you have a very nice combination.

>> > And in non-deadly infectious disease news, I visited the doctor today
>> > to inquire about my right shoulder. No stabbing pains. Just a feeling
>> > that, hey, something's not right. Had two X-rays taken and <snip>
>> >
>> > Currently, when benching, I lower the bar to my lower pecs and then
>> > stairstep the bar up to the end stroke rather than lowering to mid or
>> > upper pec and then pressing. That seems to take the twinge out of the
>> > benching equation.
>>
>> Still, be rather careful with that stuff. It took me some time to give
>> up on benching, but since I did I've no more shoulder problems. Dips
>> do work my lower chest well enough, especially if I put some effort
>> into doing them the right way.
>
> Old timer Vince Gironda has some specific opinions on dips, iirc.

Simply try it and see for yourself. Some people can do dips fine, some
can do benches fine, and some can't do any.

>> I could have fine upper chest with Oly press, if I cared. Benches
>> aren't necessary. Actually, they are shoulder wreckers.
>
> My bench has never been a success story. I think I effed up a tendon in
> my right shoulder by using too much weight on a vertical bench press
> machine. Still, I took off a few weeks and the shoulder didn't get much
> better. Impingement might just be the word of the day. >S

Several weeks isn't much for a tendon to heal. When was the first time
I mentioned my groin pull? A month ago? Well, it's still not healed
fully and I still can't overhead squat heavy. Tendons are a bitch to
heal. Get patient.

> Cuban press? Will Google. To wit:
>
> http://www.99shadesofgrey.com/fitness/2005/08/09/cuban_press.php
>
> And, yes, healing the tendon is what I'm interested in.

So it won't heal it. Nothing will heal your tendon. It must heal
itself and it will take ages. But all the assistance exercises you do
will hopefully fix imbalance issues you have, so once you are healed
your shoulder should be way stronger.

Actually that is my point. Work around an injury by doing things you
can do and avoiding things you can't do, and you'll fix your imbalances
sort of accidentally.

>> Once again, what did it for me was stopping benching and concentrating
>> on one-armed snatches. I did a sort of power snatch version when you
>> lean forward and to the side to get under the bar, and it worked well.
>> I'd suggest replacing pull-ins with waiter walks, when you walk for
>> time or distance with a weight held overhead.
>
> Well, if I haven't been tossed out of the gym on my ear for completing
> Andrzej Flyes then I suppose they'll look the other way as I do waiter
> walks.
>
> "Yes, that's the skinny bald guy. Just leave him alone. His workouts
> may be unusual but he buys a Gatorade every night."

Well, once you are at it, give a shot to one-armed overhead squats.
You will not have a flexibility to perform them correctly, but you know
what? You most probably need more flexibility in your shoulder girdle
too.

>> It will develop your "stability muscles" on its own, without going into
>> details. You need stability to, well, stabilize big weight held overhead
>> with one hand.
>
> As always, Andrzej, thank you for the recommendations.

Simply do not take them too literally. I sort of try to give you a
basis for figuring things out for yourself, not a pre-packaged solution.
I don't know what will actually work for you, so all I can do is give
hints and some reasoning behind them. All the real world applications
is on you though.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: i actually squat and bench press on the same days 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: i actually squat and bench press on the same days 

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 >> Stay informed about: i actually squat and bench press on the same days 

Shute wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:39:17 -0000, "Bully" <bully1 RemoveThis @proteinbars.co.ok>
> wrote:
>
>> Yes, but that's not what we were talking about is it Shute? We were
>> talking about his understanding of the term overtraining.
>
> You have yet to explain your twisted definition of the word.

Shute, if you had been paying attention these last months you would have
seen my define overtraining syndrome a number of times previously.

> And it is not relevant since he obviously isn't.

Maybe he is, by my definition?



--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
 >> Stay informed about: i actually squat and bench press on the same days 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: i actually squat and bench press on the same days