Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats?

On Dec 3, 8:41 am, Dave <D....TakeThisOut@Freenet.com> wrote:
> I find that I don't have enough shoulder flexibility to hold
> the bar securely with both hands when attempting to do squats. Would
> shoulder stretching exercises help with this prob? Any suggestions
> appreciated.
>
> Thanks.


Well, this is something new...I'd never considered the role of the
shoulders in squats...I do try to lift the bar with my arms and
shoulders when at a sticking point (essentially, I try to lift the bar
off my shoulders with my arms in order to help my legs straighten
up!), but I've never really had the shoulders do much work, for all my
effort, so I'm surprised shoulder flexibility should have anything to
do with the squat....

You'll want to look into some basic yoga for serious stretching
exercises...but I suspect you may be doing something wrong (or
something physiologically is wrong) if the shoulders play that great a
role in your squats...basically, they're just there...the bar lies on
them, that's all...hasn't anything to do with how well they can
flex....
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

"Dave" <Dave.DeleteThis@Freenet.com> wrote in message
news:TfidnQnmMMYCmsnaRVnyiwA@bt.com...
>
> I find that I don't have enough shoulder flexibility to hold the
> bar securely with both hands when attempting to do squats. Would shoulder
> stretching exercises help with this prob? Any suggestions appreciated.
>
> Thanks.


Try this: http://www.adfit.com/mantaray/index.asp. These work great.



--
Robert Schuh
"Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
- Nietzsche

http://www.hardbopdrums.com/
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

"Hobbes" <khobman800.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:khobman800-C4A17F.08030403122007@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> In article <TfidnQnmMMYCmsnaRVnyiwA.RemoveThis@bt.com>, Dave <Dave.RemoveThis@Freenet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I find that I don't have enough shoulder flexibility to
>> hold
>> the bar securely with both hands when attempting to do squats. Would
>> shoulder stretching exercises help with this prob? Any suggestions
>> appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks.
>
> Overhead squats. Start with a broomstick. You probably have issues
> with
> your hamstring and ankle flexibility too, so might as well address
> everything at once.

I agree but I have seen many people who aren't flexible enough to do any
sort of overhead squat, either, e.g., with a broomstick, at the bottom
the stick will be way out in front of them and they'll be all hunched
over.

For such people, I recommend a standing, one-armed overhead press with a
solid pause at the top. A kettlebell works somewhat better than a
dumbbell for this because the weight's center of mass is lower and
behind the arm, allowing you to lean forward slightly at the top in a
way that is less risky than doing the same thing with a dumbbell - but
it's fine to work the one-armed overhead press with a dumbbell for this
purpose as well. I've seen some people recommend simply putting your
hand up there but without a weight and moving it slightly, trying to
sink the shoulder into the socket while keeping the elbow locked and
just generally get used to that range of motion. Putting a weight
overhead and walking with it can also be useful for helping establish
better shoulder functioning in that position. Obviously start light with
any of these and increase the weight with caution.

IMHO, the devil is in the details - have someone watch and be sure you
know what you're trying achieve in terms of shoulder range of motion and
what you're trying to avoid, namely lifting the shoulders in order to
get more ROM.

Just my opinion.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

> Also - you don't really have to hold the bar securely with your hands.
> Just enough to prevent it from rolling.
>
> --
> Keith
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

On Dec 3, 3:02 pm, Dave <D....TakeThisOut@Freenet.com> wrote:
>
>
> Yes, I seem to have worked on my upper back and shoulders while
> neglecting flexibility. I can (with some difficulty) hold a body bar
> behind my neck if my hands are close together. The problem arises when I
> try to slide my hands along the bar away from my neck!!


That's a very limited range of motion, friend...I suggest you get to a
sports doc and find out what's really the matter...are you absolutely
sure you've got the barbell properly placed on the shoulders? Just
how wide are you trying to make your grip, anyway?

I must confess, I seem to almost have the opposite problem, a
condition opposite to yours -- it's more uncomfortable for me for my
hands to be closer to than farther away from my neck! Though I have
no stability problems at all -- it just feels a bit more awkward to me
with such a close grip.

There's something called a manta ray, some kind of thingamajig you can
wear while doing squats...I don't know much about it, except that it's
pretty expensive at like $80, but I wonder if that could possibly help
you with your issues...main thing, though, is to see if maybe there's
something amiss physiologically -- an old football injury or
something, etc.

Maybe concurrent training in basic yoga will help, too...I'm going to
look into that...I suspect that proper breathing techniques and good
flexibility can help with weight-lifting....
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

In article <5rildiF14fbrvU1 RemoveThis @mid.individual.net>,
"Steve Freides" <steve RemoveThis @fridayscomputer.com> wrote:

> "Hobbes" <khobman800 RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:khobman800-C4A17F.08030403122007@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> > In article <TfidnQnmMMYCmsnaRVnyiwA RemoveThis @bt.com>, Dave <Dave RemoveThis @Freenet.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I find that I don't have enough shoulder flexibility to
> >> hold
> >> the bar securely with both hands when attempting to do squats. Would
> >> shoulder stretching exercises help with this prob? Any suggestions
> >> appreciated.
> >>
> >> Thanks.
> >
> > Overhead squats. Start with a broomstick. You probably have issues
> > with
> > your hamstring and ankle flexibility too, so might as well address
> > everything at once.
>
> I agree but I have seen many people who aren't flexible enough to do any
> sort of overhead squat, either, e.g., with a broomstick, at the bottom
> the stick will be way out in front of them and they'll be all hunched
> over.
>
> For such people, I recommend a standing, one-armed overhead press with a
> solid pause at the top. A kettlebell works somewhat better than a
> dumbbell for this because the weight's center of mass is lower and
> behind the arm, allowing you to lean forward slightly at the top in a
> way that is less risky than doing the same thing with a dumbbell - but
> it's fine to work the one-armed overhead press with a dumbbell for this
> purpose as well. I've seen some people recommend simply putting your
> hand up there but without a weight and moving it slightly, trying to
> sink the shoulder into the socket while keeping the elbow locked and
> just generally get used to that range of motion. Putting a weight
> overhead and walking with it can also be useful for helping establish
> better shoulder functioning in that position. Obviously start light with
> any of these and increase the weight with caution.
>
> IMHO, the devil is in the details - have someone watch and be sure you
> know what you're trying achieve in terms of shoulder range of motion and
> what you're trying to avoid, namely lifting the shoulders in order to
> get more ROM.
>
> Just my opinion.
>
> -S-
> http://www.kbnj.com
>
> > Also - you don't really have to hold the bar securely with your hands.
> > Just enough to prevent it from rolling.
> >
> > --
> > Keith
>
>

I agree with some points and disagree with others. The OH squat is the
best prescription. Depth in the OH squat is limited and the goal is to
work into a deep squat. Limits are:

1. If the lower back rounds - stop just above where it rounds.

2. If the bar or broomstick moves forward.

Iniitally start with a very wide grip on the broomstick. The problem
with the OH squat - and where Steve is correct IMO, is that it is better
to have supervision or an idea what you are doing.

--
Keith
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

"Hobbes" <khobman800 DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:khobman800-0507DD.09442103122007@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> In article <5rildiF14fbrvU1 DeleteThis @mid.individual.net>,
> "Steve Freides" <steve DeleteThis @fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>
>> "Hobbes" <khobman800 DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:khobman800-C4A17F.08030403122007@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
>> > In article <TfidnQnmMMYCmsnaRVnyiwA DeleteThis @bt.com>, Dave
>> > <Dave DeleteThis @Freenet.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> I find that I don't have enough shoulder flexibility to
>> >> hold
>> >> the bar securely with both hands when attempting to do squats.
>> >> Would
>> >> shoulder stretching exercises help with this prob? Any suggestions
>> >> appreciated.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks.
>> >
>> > Overhead squats. Start with a broomstick. You probably have issues
>> > with
>> > your hamstring and ankle flexibility too, so might as well address
>> > everything at once.
>>
>> I agree but I have seen many people who aren't flexible enough to do
>> any
>> sort of overhead squat, either, e.g., with a broomstick, at the
>> bottom
>> the stick will be way out in front of them and they'll be all hunched
>> over.
>>
>> For such people, I recommend a standing, one-armed overhead press
>> with a
>> solid pause at the top. A kettlebell works somewhat better than a
>> dumbbell for this because the weight's center of mass is lower and
>> behind the arm, allowing you to lean forward slightly at the top in a
>> way that is less risky than doing the same thing with a dumbbell -
>> but
>> it's fine to work the one-armed overhead press with a dumbbell for
>> this
>> purpose as well. I've seen some people recommend simply putting your
>> hand up there but without a weight and moving it slightly, trying to
>> sink the shoulder into the socket while keeping the elbow locked and
>> just generally get used to that range of motion. Putting a weight
>> overhead and walking with it can also be useful for helping establish
>> better shoulder functioning in that position. Obviously start light
>> with
>> any of these and increase the weight with caution.
>>
>> IMHO, the devil is in the details - have someone watch and be sure
>> you
>> know what you're trying achieve in terms of shoulder range of motion
>> and
>> what you're trying to avoid, namely lifting the shoulders in order to
>> get more ROM.
>>
>> Just my opinion.
>>
>> -S-
>> http://www.kbnj.com
>>
>> > Also - you don't really have to hold the bar securely with your
>> > hands.
>> > Just enough to prevent it from rolling.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Keith
>>
>>
>
> I agree with some points and disagree with others. The OH squat is the
> best prescription. Depth in the OH squat is limited and the goal is to
> work into a deep squat. Limits are:
>
> 1. If the lower back rounds - stop just above where it rounds.
>
> 2. If the bar or broomstick moves forward.
>
> Iniitally start with a very wide grip on the broomstick. The problem
> with the OH squat - and where Steve is correct IMO, is that it is
> better
> to have supervision or an idea what you are doing.

You're not allowed to agree with some points and disagree with others,
Keith. This is mfw, and we have to have a flame war.



The skill level required for the OHS is high - not only does it require
good shoulder, upper back, hip, and hamstring flexibility, it requires
coordinating them all. I agree that all these things should be
addressed, but since the OP asked for shoulders, that's where I focused
my response. I believe it's generally best to address those skill
individually before asking for them all in one movement.

A typical beginner program here starts with bodyweight stiff-legged
good-mornings to teach folding at the hips while stretching the
hamstrings as exercise #1. I follow that with bodyweight box squats, a
fancy name for sitting in a chair, and we do it with a chair, not a box,
focusing on keeping the shins vertical and the back straight, basically
just adding bending the knees to the first exercise. #3 is a kettlebell
swing, and my feeling is that a standing overhead press (#5 for me
usually, with #4 being the kettlebell clean required to get to the start
of the press) combined with a kettlebell swing is better as a starting
point for most people.

I have seen, as I'm sure you have, many athletes who can demonstrate
strength and/or power and/or skill at athletic movements but still have
not mastered the basic movement patterns of hinging at the hips and
raising their arm straight up. People who have little or no supervision
can, IMHO, achieve better results with the skills addressed as
individually as possible, which is why I almost always do it that way.
If someone gets the hang of those things, I've introduced the OHS with a
stick shortly thereafter, e.g., there's a guy I'm working with once
every month or two now for whom I added the OHS at our second session.

Just my opinion.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

>
> --
> Keith
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

Prisoner at War wrote:
> On Dec 3, 8:41 am, Dave <D....DeleteThis@Freenet.com> wrote:
>> I find that I don't have enough shoulder flexibility to hold
>> the bar securely with both hands when attempting to do squats. Would
>> shoulder stretching exercises help with this prob? Any suggestions
>> appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks.
>
>
> Well, this is something new...I'd never considered the role of the
> shoulders in squats...I do try to lift the bar with my arms and
> shoulders when at a sticking point (essentially, I try to lift the bar
> off my shoulders with my arms in order to help my legs straighten
> up!), but I've never really had the shoulders do much work, for all my
> effort, so I'm surprised shoulder flexibility should have anything to
> do with the squat....
>
> You'll want to look into some basic yoga for serious stretching
> exercises...but I suspect you may be doing something wrong (or
> something physiologically is wrong) if the shoulders play that great a
> role in your squats...basically, they're just there...the bar lies on
> them, that's all...hasn't anything to do with how well they can
> flex....


Yes, I seem to have worked on my upper back and shoulders while
neglecting flexibility. I can (with some difficulty) hold a body bar
behind my neck if my hands are close together. The problem arises when I
try to slide my hands along the bar away from my neck!!
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

"Dave" <Dave DeleteThis @Freenet.com> wrote in message
news:TfidnQnmMMYCmsnaRVnyiwA@bt.com...
>
> I find that I don't have enough shoulder flexibility to hold the
> bar securely with both hands when attempting to do squats. Would shoulder
> stretching exercises help with this prob? Any suggestions appreciated.
>
> Thanks.The way I do it is:


I wrap my arms around the bar so that my forearm is on the bar and my
fingers are on the inside ring behind the plates.

I use the same hold when I start with a "warm-up" before I do anything in
the gym.

As far as being flexible, it's up to you, you are as young as your spine.

BUT, it sounds like you have a lot to learn and you need either a gym
buddy that knows what he/she is doing are you need to get a trainer for a
month or two to teach you what's going on.

Until you do that you need to be very careful or you are going to get
hurt, "For Sure".

Burr

Big, Lean, Mean & Clean

Subs. Iron Mind 20 yrs.
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

"Dave" <Dave.TakeThisOut@Freenet.com> schreef:

> I find that I don't have enough shoulder flexibility to hold the
> bar securely with both hands when attempting to do squats. Would shoulder
> stretching exercises help with this prob? Any suggestions appreciated.


Hacks.

--
Uncle Bob
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

Dnia 2007-12-03 Dave napisa³(a):
>
> I find that I don't have enough shoulder flexibility to hold
> the bar securely with both hands when attempting to do squats.

Use it or lose it. Side presses, behind the neck overhead presses,
stretching or whatever will work for you.

> Would shoulder stretching exercises help with this prob?

A bit. But I find that I don't care enough about range of motion, so I
tend to chose movements where I can lift more if I have better range of
motion. This way it's easy to see progress. If you overhead squat
more, you either increased your strength or increased your range of
motion, for example.

> Any suggestions appreciated.

You can start with military press (put your head under the bar fast),
then side presses and bent presses. That's what worked for me.
Recently I found that it helps to do lockouts in the "catch" position of
a bent press.

--
Andrzej Rosa
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

Dnia 2007-12-03 Hobbes napisa³(a):
>
> I agree with some points and disagree with others. The OH squat is the
> best prescription. Depth in the OH squat is limited and the goal is to
> work into a deep squat. Limits are:
>
> 1. If the lower back rounds - stop just above where it rounds.
>
> 2. If the bar or broomstick moves forward.
>
> Iniitally start with a very wide grip on the broomstick. The problem
> with the OH squat - and where Steve is correct IMO, is that it is better
> to have supervision or an idea what you are doing.

If I took this approach I'd be still doing half squats with a very wide
grip on a broomstick (without some weight on the bar there is no force
which can "stretch" the joint). My arms simply do not bend this way (I'm
not very inflexible all around, I just don't bend this way somehow), and
it would take ages of boredom to get anywhere. Approach recommended by
Steve actually worked for me, although once I started on OHS's I still
managed to injure my groin. If we lack flexibility in one joint, we tend
to overcompensate with other joints, which at times means strained tendons
and some such.

--
Andrzej Rosa
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

"Andrzej Rosa" <bakters RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fj4n7p$91l$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
> Dnia 2007-12-03 Hobbes napisa³(a):
>>
>> I agree with some points and disagree with others. The OH squat is
>> the
>> best prescription. Depth in the OH squat is limited and the goal is
>> to
>> work into a deep squat. Limits are:
>>
>> 1. If the lower back rounds - stop just above where it rounds.
>>
>> 2. If the bar or broomstick moves forward.
>>
>> Iniitally start with a very wide grip on the broomstick. The problem
>> with the OH squat - and where Steve is correct IMO, is that it is
>> better
>> to have supervision or an idea what you are doing.
>
> If I took this approach I'd be still doing half squats with a very
> wide
> grip on a broomstick (without some weight on the bar there is no force
> which can "stretch" the joint). My arms simply do not bend this way
> (I'm
> not very inflexible all around, I just don't bend this way somehow),
> and
> it would take ages of boredom to get anywhere.

That's no excuse, Comrade.

> Approach recommended by
> Steve actually worked for me,

What approach was that? (I don't remember.)

> although once I started on OHS's I still
> managed to injure my groin. If we lack flexibility in one joint, we
> tend
> to overcompensate with other joints, which at times means strained
> tendons
> and some such.

Time to work on your flexibility, then. http://www.kbnj.com/ris.htm or,
if you can figure out his stuff (I can't), http://www.stadion.com, or
Bryce Lane's flexibility booklet.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com


> --
> Andrzej Rosa
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

In article <5rnvonF15r0n7U1.TakeThisOut@mid.individual.net>,
"Steve Freides" <steve.TakeThisOut@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:

> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:fj4n7p$91l$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
> > Dnia 2007-12-03 Hobbes napisa³(a):
> >>
> >> I agree with some points and disagree with others. The OH squat is
> >> the
> >> best prescription. Depth in the OH squat is limited and the goal is
> >> to
> >> work into a deep squat. Limits are:
> >>
> >> 1. If the lower back rounds - stop just above where it rounds.
> >>
> >> 2. If the bar or broomstick moves forward.
> >>
> >> Iniitally start with a very wide grip on the broomstick. The problem
> >> with the OH squat - and where Steve is correct IMO, is that it is
> >> better
> >> to have supervision or an idea what you are doing.
> >
> > If I took this approach I'd be still doing half squats with a very
> > wide
> > grip on a broomstick (without some weight on the bar there is no force
> > which can "stretch" the joint). My arms simply do not bend this way
> > (I'm
> > not very inflexible all around, I just don't bend this way somehow),
> > and
> > it would take ages of boredom to get anywhere.
>
> That's no excuse, Comrade.
>
> > Approach recommended by
> > Steve actually worked for me,
>
> What approach was that? (I don't remember.)
>
> > although once I started on OHS's I still
> > managed to injure my groin. If we lack flexibility in one joint, we
> > tend
> > to overcompensate with other joints, which at times means strained
> > tendons
> > and some such.
>
> Time to work on your flexibility, then. http://www.kbnj.com/ris.htm or,
> if you can figure out his stuff (I can't), http://www.stadion.com, or
> Bryce Lane's flexibility booklet.
>
> -S-
> http://www.kbnj.com

Plus, if the shoulders are up to it add weight to the bar on the OH
squat! Simple.

May not work for everyone, but the common prescription in OL circles is
still to begin people working the base. Front squat, OH squat, power
versions of the clean and snatch. And OL tend to have very good shoulder
and hip flexibility.

My shoulders were extremely tight from years of benching - in particular
my external rotations was horrible. In two years I've added 25 degrees
of active external rotation, mainly by the snatch variatants and OH
squat in particular. The velocity on my baseball throw has really
improved.

--
Keith
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats?