Can you "run" on an elliptical?

Charlie Pendejo wrote:
> nomail1983 wrote:
> > my son said that he "runs" on an elliptical
>
> I hate to break it to you, but he's not running on that machine. He's
> ... eloping!

Cute! Thanks for all the supportive responses. We all (so far) seem
to agree that the elliptical movement is not "running" -- and in fact,
it is a poor simulation of the running gait -- no matter how fast he
goes. I am sure your comments are wasted on him. But __I__ appreciate
them. Thanks again.
 >> Stay informed about: Can you "run" on an elliptical? 

<nomail1983 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1164269815.190738.291440@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> When my son said that he "runs" on an elliptical, I tried to correct
> him, saying that "running" involves the foot leaving the ground, which
> he agreed is not what he meant. His foot does not leave the "pedal"
> (foot platform?) of the elliptical. But he still insists that he is
> "running". I offered the term "spinning" -- although that might not
> be
> correct either. (Certainly the people that own the Spinning trademark
> would disagree with me ;->.)
>
> So my question is: what is the term typically used to describe "going
> very fast" on an elliptical? Is it truly called "running"?

I like your "going very fast," because he's not running.

> PS: My son says he "runs" on an elliptical in order to "retrain" his
> stride to avoid the "shin splints" he suffered after (truly) running
> on
> cement and asphalt. Since the elliptical motion seems very different
> to me than an actual running stride, I wonder: is it a good idea to
> "run" on an elliptical for that purpose? Are there better ways to
> learn to avoid shin splints and other running injuries?

Your son clearly has a lot to learn.

He is retraining his stride to the pattern of an elliptical machine,
useful for cardiovascular, aerobic type of fitness, useful for getting
good at using the elliptical, and nearly useless for anything else.

There are lots of ways to avoid shin splints and other running injuries.
If he wants to run, do a web search on "barefoot running" and similar
terms and learn about how to run properly. Then research training
programs, including the common, and common sense advice never to
increase by more than 10% per week in any parameter of a running
program - distance, intensity, etc. Then make sure he has shoes that
fit and are designed for his feet, his gait, and his type of running
surface - I have found that, if one runs with good form, the less shoe
the better, but if one doesn't run with good form, then a lot of shoe
and the proper type of shoe is very important.

All exercise should be goal driven, even if that goal is a modest "stay
fit." What is your son trying to accomplish? If it is just "stay fit,"
he has plenty of alternatives to running. Besides other aerobic
activities, many people, me included, have stopped running, swimming,
bicycling, and the like, and taken up pursuits that involve more pure
strength and the hybrid strength/endurance, which together have found me
in the best shape of my life at age 51 after a few decades of endurance
sports (none of it earth-shaking, but I was a 20 minute 5k runner, an
"A" level amateur cyclist, and a good swimmer). Martial arts study a
few times a week is another excellent alternative. You can find out
about my personal exercise choices by following the link below but the
point is that thinking this through more than just "I'm supposed to run
and I get shin splits so I'm going to use the elliptical really fast" is
what's in order in my humble opinion, based on what you've said.

Hope that's of some help to you, and Happy Thanksgiving Day.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com
 >> Stay informed about: Can you "run" on an elliptical? 

I am not overly fond of the elliptical,
but I do find that, as a X-trainer, the model
with the hand pedals, which also work one's
upper body, is useful for the purpose of
engaging, or simulating, the rhythm of whole body movement
used in running, vs, say, a bike or stairmaster,
which use only the lower body.
 >> Stay informed about: Can you "run" on an elliptical? 

Unfortuneately, the more they upgrade the models, the less, in my
opinion, the exercise elliptical really does anything!

The older models appeal to more than the overly fancy newer models,
which are all machine, no exercise.
 >> Stay informed about: Can you "run" on an elliptical? 

On 2006-11-23, nomail1983.DeleteThis@hotmail.com <nomail1983.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
> When my son said that he "runs" on an elliptical, I tried to correct
> him, saying that "running" involves the foot leaving the ground, which
> he agreed is not what he meant. His foot does not leave the "pedal"
> (foot platform?) of the elliptical. But he still insists that he is
> "running". I offered the term "spinning" -- although that might not be
> correct either. (Certainly the people that own the Spinning trademark
> would disagree with me ;->.)

It's not "running". Part of the "running stride" involves impact. It will
help him maintain some conditioning during down time from running, but that's
what it is -- downtime from running.

There are certainly other ways besides "not running" (no, "running on an
elliptical" doesn't count) to avoid running injuries. Whether or not they are
"better" depends on goals, but if one of those goals is to be able to run
reasonably well, then ultimately "not running" isn't a long term solution.

Most common causes of running injuries are "too much too soon", and "racing
during training runs". The latter is quite likely to be an issue with a
young male runner who appears to know very little about training ...
Proper footwear also reduces injury risk.

If he has access to a treadmill, that may be an appropriate way to get a feel
for appropriate training pace (about 1:30-2:00 minutes per mile slower than 5k
time)

Cheers,
--
Elflord
 >> Stay informed about: Can you "run" on an elliptical? 

So take a mid 34s 10k guy (like me) who is doing aerobic training runs
at
7:30mpm on a treadmill. Do you think I'm going to find it that hard to
run at
7:30mpm when I get outdoors ?

When I first transitioned, yes, I did find it harder, but not because
of the "grade," rather
an proprioceptive physical coordination challenge. I feel like a get a
better training workout on the treadmill because I can pace myself in a
controlled manner, and I reinforce better running form, by keeping my
body aligned.

But that training did not not easily translate to real road running,
which for me, involves more stop and start, zig-zagging through
traffic, and generally, I think, shorter strides. The forced treadmill
pace keeps me on task better, too; I get bored easily on the road. If I
had a better route, which I could do mindlessly, and get more zoned
out, I might feel different about road running.

Clearly, I am no competitor; but this is my own sense of the
differences between treadmill and road running, off a track. Further,
it feels as though slightly different muscles are utilized, advantages
to each; I am speculating.
 >> Stay informed about: Can you "run" on an elliptical? 

On 2006-11-24, Gemini Jackson <GJ DeleteThis @GJ.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Nov 2006 15:02:54 +0000 (UTC), Elflord <abuse DeleteThis @aol.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On 2006-11-23, nomail1983 DeleteThis @hotmail.com <nomail1983 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> When my son said that he "runs" on an elliptical, I tried to correct
>>> him, saying that "running" involves the foot leaving the ground, which
>>> he agreed is not what he meant. His foot does not leave the "pedal"
>>> (foot platform?) of the elliptical. But he still insists that he is
>>> "running". I offered the term "spinning" -- although that might not be
>>> correct either. (Certainly the people that own the Spinning trademark
>>> would disagree with me ;->.)
>>
>>It's not "running". Part of the "running stride" involves impact. It will
>>help him maintain some conditioning during down time from running, but that's
>>what it is -- downtime from running.
>
> Are there any differences at all in the effects of running on a
> treadmill as opposed to not?

No significant differences. For example, you could train exclusively on a
treadmill all winter and not have any observable "downtime effect".

There is a general "specificity" rule of thumb for racing that says, train
in conditions that you will race in. So for a hilly cross country course,
that means getting in hill reps on trails. For track people, it means track
running. For the Boston marathon, it means doing long downhill runs. But
(a) you only need *some* of your training to be like this, not all of it, and
(b) the treadmill is no less specific to track running than say trail running
or running on pavement.

Cheers,
--
Elflord
 >> Stay informed about: Can you "run" on an elliptical? 

"Elflord" <abuse.TakeThisOut@aol.com> wrote in message
news:slrnemcmv6.6cm.abuse@panix3.panix.com...
> On 2006-11-24, Gemini Jackson <GJ.TakeThisOut@GJ.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 23 Nov 2006 15:02:54 +0000 (UTC), Elflord <abuse.TakeThisOut@aol.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>On 2006-11-23, nomail1983.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com <nomail1983.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> When my son said that he "runs" on an elliptical, I tried to
>>>> correct
>>>> him, saying that "running" involves the foot leaving the ground,
>>>> which
>>>> he agreed is not what he meant. His foot does not leave the
>>>> "pedal"
>>>> (foot platform?) of the elliptical. But he still insists that he
>>>> is
>>>> "running". I offered the term "spinning" -- although that might
>>>> not be
>>>> correct either. (Certainly the people that own the Spinning
>>>> trademark
>>>> would disagree with me ;->.)
>>>
>>>It's not "running". Part of the "running stride" involves impact. It
>>>will
>>>help him maintain some conditioning during down time from running,
>>>but that's
>>>what it is -- downtime from running.
>>
>> Are there any differences at all in the effects of running on a
>> treadmill as opposed to not?
>
> No significant differences. For example, you could train exclusively
> on a
> treadmill all winter and not have any observable "downtime effect".

Depends on who you talk to. Most runners I know say to place a
treadmill at a 1/2 or 1 degree incline to compensate for the fact that
it has a bit of springiness to it, otherwise you'll have a harder time
matching your treadmill pace once you get outdoor again.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com


> There is a general "specificity" rule of thumb for racing that says,
> train
> in conditions that you will race in. So for a hilly cross country
> course,
> that means getting in hill reps on trails. For track people, it means
> track
> running. For the Boston marathon, it means doing long downhill runs.
> But
> (a) you only need *some* of your training to be like this, not all of
> it, and
> (b) the treadmill is no less specific to track running than say trail
> running
> or running on pavement.
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Elflord
 >> Stay informed about: Can you "run" on an elliptical? 

On 2006-11-24, Steve Freides <steve.TakeThisOut@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:

>>> Are there any differences at all in the effects of running on a
>>> treadmill as opposed to not?
>>
>> No significant differences. For example, you could train exclusively on a
>> treadmill all winter and not have any observable "downtime effect".
>
> Depends on who you talk to. Most runners I know say to place a
> treadmill at a 1/2 or 1 degree incline to compensate for the fact that

I take it you mean percent grade here ... ? The theory is that it compensates
for wind resistance. Either way, the fact that you reduce your effective
mileage by a few percentage points is *not* going to produce what I'd call an
"observable downtime effect". "Observable downtime effect" means that you're
a sub 20 guy who jumps into a 5k race, hits mile 1 at 6:30 as usual, ends
up barely breaking 8 on the last mile and finishes over 22 minutes.

> it has a bit of springiness to it, otherwise you'll have a harder time
> matching your treadmill pace once you get outdoor again.

So take a mid 34s 10k guy (like me) who is doing aerobic training runs at
7:30mpm on a treadmill. Do you think I'm going to find it that hard to run at
7:30mpm when I get outdoors ?

Cheers,
--
Elflord
 >> Stay informed about: Can you "run" on an elliptical? 

Gemini Jackson wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Nov 2006 15:02:54 +0000 (UTC), Elflord <abuse.RemoveThis@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On 2006-11-23, nomail1983.RemoveThis@hotmail.com <nomail1983.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> When my son said that he "runs" on an elliptical, I tried to correct
> >> him, saying that "running" involves the foot leaving the ground, which
> >> he agreed is not what he meant. His foot does not leave the "pedal"
> >> (foot platform?) of the elliptical. But he still insists that he is
> >> "running". I offered the term "spinning" -- although that might not be
> >> correct either. (Certainly the people that own the Spinning trademark
> >> would disagree with me ;->.)
> >
> >It's not "running". Part of the "running stride" involves impact. It will
> >help him maintain some conditioning during down time from running, but that's
> >what it is -- downtime from running.
>
> Are there any differences at all in the effects of running on a
> treadmill as opposed to not?
>
> >
> >There are certainly other ways besides "not running" (no, "running on an
> >elliptical" doesn't count) to avoid running injuries. Whether or not they are
> >"better" depends on goals, but if one of those goals is to be able to run
> >reasonably well, then ultimately "not running" isn't a long term solution.
> >
> >Most common causes of running injuries are "too much too soon", and "racing
> >during training runs". The latter is quite likely to be an issue with a
> >young male runner who appears to know very little about training ...
> >Proper footwear also reduces injury risk.
> >
> >If he has access to a treadmill, that may be an appropriate way to get a feel
> >for appropriate training pace (about 1:30-2:00 minutes per mile slower than 5k
> >time)
> >
> >Cheers,
> ~GJ~


A few years ago the woman who was the only USA olympic marathon
qualifier that year (sorry I forget her name) trained almost
exclusively on a tredmil, so its a pretty good training tool for
runners. Personally I have a tredmil and hate it.


Eric
 >> Stay informed about: Can you "run" on an elliptical? 

On 2006-11-24, bluezfolk <ericreh DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>

> A few years ago the woman who was the only USA olympic marathon
> qualifier that year (sorry I forget her name) trained almost
> exclusively on a tredmil, so its a pretty good training tool for
> runners. Personally I have a tredmil and hate it.

Christine Clark

There are other top runners who also use treadmills. It's not that uncommon.

Most runners I know can't stand more than about 1hr on a treadmill, so that is
the main thing that rules out using it exclusively ...

Cheers,
--
Elflord
 >> Stay informed about: Can you "run" on an elliptical? 

"Elflord" <abuse DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote in message
news:slrnemcr4f.4dp.abuse@panix3.panix.com...
> On 2006-11-24, Steve Freides <steve DeleteThis @fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>
>>>> Are there any differences at all in the effects of running on a
>>>> treadmill as opposed to not?
>>>
>>> No significant differences. For example, you could train exclusively
>>> on a
>>> treadmill all winter and not have any observable "downtime effect".
>>
>> Depends on who you talk to. Most runners I know say to place a
>> treadmill at a 1/2 or 1 degree incline to compensate for the fact
>> that
>
> I take it you mean percent grade here ... ? The theory is that it
> compensates
> for wind resistance. Either way, the fact that you reduce your
> effective
> mileage by a few percentage points is *not* going to produce what I'd
> call an
> "observable downtime effect". "Observable downtime effect" means that
> you're
> a sub 20 guy who jumps into a 5k race, hits mile 1 at 6:30 as usual,
> ends
> up barely breaking 8 on the last mile and finishes over 22 minutes.
>
>> it has a bit of springiness to it, otherwise you'll have a harder
>> time
>> matching your treadmill pace once you get outdoor again.
>
> So take a mid 34s 10k guy (like me) who is doing aerobic training runs
> at
> 7:30mpm on a treadmill. Do you think I'm going to find it that hard
> to run at
> 7:30mpm when I get outdoors ?

Yes, based on what I know. I'd recommend the 1/2 to 1 percent incline
for your treadmill work, otherwise you might find the "observable"
difference once you get outside again. Whether that's 2 minutes on a 5k
or not I can't say, but it seems reasonable to assume the difference
will be the difference in your pace and/or effort between flat and 1/2
or 1 percent on the treadmill, if you want to attempt to quantify that.

But I can say that sub-35:00 for a 10kg is pretty fast.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com


> Cheers,
> --
> Elflord
 >> Stay informed about: Can you "run" on an elliptical? 

bluezfolk wrote:
>
>
> A few years ago the woman who was the only USA olympic marathon
> qualifier that year (sorry I forget her name) trained almost
> exclusively on a tredmil, so its a pretty good training tool for
> runners. Personally I have a tredmil and hate it.

Chris Clark.

Embedded in a long thread elsewhere:
While Christine Clark did *most* of her training on the treadmill,
various reports that I've seen suggest she only used it for speed work
or about 2/3 of her training. (That would imply 2/3 of her work was
speed work, and I'm not sure that's accurate. Probably quotes from
different contexts.)

More general comments on treadmill training.
http://www.runningtimes.com/issues/02janfeb/treadmill.htm

" U.S. Olympic marathoner Christine Clark... told a reporter with the
Washington Running Report that she only uses the treadmill for speed
work, not distance training."
clipped from
http://www.townonline.com/natick/news/local_regional/ntb_newnamaratho...

"Instead of running more than 100 miles a week, she does 70. Instead of
running on the roads regularly, she does about two-thirds of her
training on a treadmill because of the icy conditions in Anchorage."
clipped from
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/olympics/news/2000/02/26/marathon_tr...

Her more usual training:
"I try to stay completely off the treadmill after April. I don't get
back on it until it gets dark and we have snow, which is about the
middle or end of October...Now, we have a wonderful trail system through
the woods which is rolling hills and dirt paths, and I try to stick to
that....I try to do one quality speed workout a week, on the trails
here."
clipped from
http://www.runnersworld.com/home/0,1300,1-0-0-3231,00.html
_____

More recently: "I couldn't do a winter like that on the treadmill. I
don't know if I could ever be that anal again."
from: http://www.adn.com/sports/story/5425199p-5361213c.html

Dot

--
"Dream big and dare to fail." --- Norman Vaughan
 >> Stay informed about: Can you "run" on an elliptical?