What to do about This pain?

tforms

What caught my eye mostly here is your comment about your left shoulder
and doing external shoulder rotations with cables..... what do you
mean by "bad". and what do you feel that external shoulder rotations
of any type are doing for that shoulder? My first suggestion when
doing rehab with clients with shoulder issues is that rotations are not
really best utilized as a weighted exercise. When using weights, pick
a direction and go there. Round about is not actually a direction and
if you take a look at the way the muscle fibers in the various muscles
in the shoulder area point combined with the way the spinal nerves run
down to the hands it will probably begin to make sense why a rotating
weighted exercise is not that helpful in training. At best rotating
shoulders is a warm up of sorts.

with your right armpit area I have to agree with the other responder
that if you are finding that pain in other exercises now then it is
time to have a legitimate bio mechanics assessment and visit your Dr
and get a medical opinion. Now that said, if you have a "bad" left
shoulder then I would bet money that your right arm is compensating for
the protraction of the left shoulder by sliding your elboy slightly
forward in your back and chest exercises. This of course places more
weight on the right side and has a great cross fiber stress on the
entire right shoulder, upper and lower arm. You can see this quite
often on a heavy pec deck exercise as you watch some ones right elbow
drop down slightly on the way in. Essentially what this does is
protract the right shoulder although it is difficult to see because it
is done by turning the right elbow down towards the floor.

My suggestion: Take a very close look at your pec deck form making
sure that your chest does not drop at all during the exercise and that
both arms are doing exactly the same thing in the mirror through out
the range. Also on your standing bicep curls, take a look to see that
both arms on dumb bells and straight bar are doing exactly the same
thing and that one shoulder is not more elevated and/or one elbow is
not squeezing into your ribcage more than the other. These are both
signs that one shoulder is protracted more than the other and of course
you want some pretty extreme retraction of the shoulders if you are
going to maximize your potential in strength and endurance.

Lastly look what happens to your chin when you lift. if it drops
during a lift correct it. I often use the expression that when the
chin drops the exercise is over. You might continue of course but your
effectiveness and nerve conduction availability has been so far
minimized that you might as well have stopped. You will see this ALL
the time on a leg extension. Kind of funny really to think that your
leg extension is ruined just because your head drops but as every good
football coach knows. When you are on the line and your head drops,
the guy coming at you will slam you straight into the dirt like a girls
cout at a bake sale.



ok happy lifting, write any time....

John Mac
maclarenmethod.com
tforms1.RemoveThis@yahoo.com wrote:
> As part of my workout, I do pullups with weights attached with a
> dipping belt.
> The weights range from 45lbs up to 110lbs, depending on reps.
>
> I sometimes get pain in my right: tricep/armpit area.
> Its right at the connection point (I assume) of the tricep and armpit
> area.
> For instance if Im standing with my back towards you with my arms at my
> side, its basically at the spot where you can see my armpit.
>
> First the pain was when I was at the begining of the pullup (at the
> bottom) and I started to pull myself up.
> This went on for a few months, but it only hurt at that point.
>
> Now I changed my workout a bit and went with heavier weights, so now it
> hurt a lot more when I started the pullup and it also hurt when I did
> cleans and I was bringing the weight back down. from my neck area back
> to my knee area...when the weight got to the bottom it pulled on my
> shoulder and hurt there in the back.
>
> It also hurt if I raised my arms backwards (opposite of front raise)
>
> So I took 3 weeks off, and tonight went back to the gym and tried some
> pullups (no weights) and it still hurt.
>
> Any tips on what I can do?
>
> What could the problem be?
>
> Oh and I have a bad left shoulder, so I do external shoulder rotations
> with cables.
>
> Thanks
 >> Stay informed about: What to do about This pain? 

> Well you should probably see a doctor. I can't picture exactly where
> you are talking about on the body.

I pulled a picture off google and painted the pain spot
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i278/tforms1/z.jpg

Its hard to pinpoint exactly where it is, since it only hurts when I am
doing pullups.

> And you don't know if it is bone,
> joint, muscle, or something else. Someone needs to examine it more

I dont think its bone, probably tendon/ligament.
 >> Stay informed about: What to do about This pain? 

> What caught my eye mostly here is your comment about your left shoulder
> and doing external shoulder rotations with cables..... what do you
> mean by "bad".

I have a partial tear of the supraspinatus tendon.
This happened about 5-6 years ago.

> and what do you feel that external shoulder rotations
> of any type are doing for that shoulder? My first suggestion when

That is the exercise I am refering to:
http://www.sportsinjurybulletin.com/img/040sib_fig4.gif
http://www.sportsinjurybulletin.com/img/040sib_fig5.gif


> and get a medical opinion. Now that said, if you have a "bad" left
> shoulder then I would bet money that your right arm is compensating for

It could be.
But my left shoulder is mostly fine now, I only notice problems with it
the day after a hard workout. Then its a bit sore.

> My suggestion: Take a very close look at your pec deck form making

My main lifts are:
bench, incline bench, pullups, rows, squats, deadlift, clean and press,
curls, dips.

If you did not see my prior post, I pulled a picture from google and
painted in red where I believe the pain is. (hard to pinpoint since it
mainly hurts when I am doing a pullup)

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i278/tforms1/z.jpg

Thanks
 >> Stay informed about: What to do about This pain? 

<tforms1.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1161574884.752450.284620@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> As part of my workout, I do pullups with weights attached with a
> dipping belt.
> The weights range from 45lbs up to 110lbs, depending on reps.
>
> I sometimes get pain in my right: tricep/armpit area.
> Its right at the connection point (I assume) of the tricep and armpit
> area.
> For instance if Im standing with my back towards you with my arms at
> my
> side, its basically at the spot where you can see my armpit.
>
> First the pain was when I was at the begining of the pullup (at the
> bottom) and I started to pull myself up.
> This went on for a few months, but it only hurt at that point.
>
> Now I changed my workout a bit and went with heavier weights, so now
> it
> hurt a lot more when I started the pullup and it also hurt when I did
> cleans and I was bringing the weight back down. from my neck area
> back
> to my knee area...when the weight got to the bottom it pulled on my
> shoulder and hurt there in the back.
>
> It also hurt if I raised my arms backwards (opposite of front raise)
>
> So I took 3 weeks off, and tonight went back to the gym and tried some
> pullups (no weights) and it still hurt.
>
> Any tips on what I can do?
>
> What could the problem be?
>
> Oh and I have a bad left shoulder, so I do external shoulder rotations
> with cables.
>
> Thanks

See a doctor.

When you do pullups, start every rep by fully "sucking in" your
shoulders, IOW, begin the movement by pulling your shoulders down in
their sockets, which, if you are at a dead hang, may raise your body
some. Then keep them that way throughout the movement. It may slow
your speed down at first but it's better for your shoulders.

See a doctor before you do any more pullups.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com
 >> Stay informed about: What to do about This pain? 

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 >> Stay informed about: What to do about This pain? 

> I did loads of specific rotator cuff exercises and they never did
> anything for me (with possible and minor exception of Cuban press).
> Snatches did plenty of good, though.

When I was in rehab, I saw other people who had tears, impingment, and
other injuries, and we all did the SAME exercises!
lol


> Nowadays I follow the mode of thinking I picked up on the net
> somewhere, and it says that in case of troubles one should search for
> weak synergist muscles, so rotator cuff tear indicates weak upper back
> (for example), hamstring pull indicates weak glutes etc.


That makes sense.
Most of the time I've heard about shoulder injuries is that a lot of
people work their chest a lot more than their backs, so theirs an
inbalance.


> >> and get a medical opinion. Now that said, if you have a "bad" left

Only problem with getting a medical opinion....I started a new job.
Our work hours are 8 to 8 in another state.
So I am not in my home state until Friday late night.
And we were told not to take time off until quarter 2 of 2007.

The things we do for a paycheck.


> It won't work. Until you have something really common and clear, net
> diagnosis will always be hit or miss affair.

True.
But I was hoping that there would be "general" exercises.
Like I said, when I was in rehab for my Left shoulder, everyone who had
shoulder problems (impingment, tear, etc) all did very similiar
exercises:
External cable rotations, lateral raise, rear lateral raises, straight
arm pulldowns (like a pullover), cable rows, etc...in other words a lot
of back work.
When I went in for my bad lower back (I have vertibrate problems) I did
the same generic exercises I saw other people do: stretch hamstrings,
crunches, etc...

So I thought my current pain in the right armpit/tricep area has been
seen/experienced, and people had some general exercises I could do.


> There are other and exciting exercises so why not find something witch
> is 100% fine for your shoulder and concentrate on it for a while?

Any suggestions for a substitute for weighted pullups?
I already do barbell rows.

> BTW - check your mobility. I bet it sucks big time.

lol, my hamstrings are as tight as a 10 year old rubber band!

Thanks
 >> Stay informed about: What to do about This pain? 

Shute wrote:
> On 23 Oct 2006 08:47:57 -0700, tforms1.RemoveThis@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>> Well you should probably see a doctor. I can't picture exactly
>>> where you are talking about on the body.
>>
>> I pulled a picture off google and painted the pain spot
>> http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i278/tforms1/z.jpg
>>
>> Its hard to pinpoint exactly where it is, since it only hurts when I
>> am doing pullups.
>>
>>> And you don't know if it is bone,
>>> joint, muscle, or something else. Someone needs to examine it more
>>
>> I dont think its bone, probably tendon/ligament.
>
> Well I can't think of any vital body parts there. There are some
> lymph nodes further under the armpit which could have been a symptom
> of a more serious problem. Probably no there though. You could just
> have some kind of tendonitis in that location.
>
> Here is something you can give a try if you want. This isn't from
> traditional medicine so it might sound a little weird. Try putting
> your finger in the general area. Try to find a spot where you finger
> sort of fits into. Ideally on a tender spot. Try applying pressure
> for at least 5-10 seconds. If it hurts and the pain doesn't lighten
> up when you release your finger than don't continue because it is
> probably an injury. If it feels like sort of a good pain where it
> starts to feel a little better than try holding a few more times or
> for longer. There is a pressure point in that general location and if
> it works you may even feel some muscle tension release in other areas
> of your body afterward. No need to do it for more than a few minutes
> on a given day. If it works I can let you know more about it.

What if it's referred pain and the tension is elsewhere!!

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
 >> Stay informed about: What to do about This pain? 

Dnia 2006-10-23 tforms1 DeleteThis @yahoo.com napisa³(a):
>> What caught my eye mostly here is your comment about your left shoulder
>> and doing external shoulder rotations with cables..... what do you
>> mean by "bad".
>
> I have a partial tear of the supraspinatus tendon.
> This happened about 5-6 years ago.
>
>> and what do you feel that external shoulder rotations
>> of any type are doing for that shoulder? My first suggestion when
>
> That is the exercise I am refering to:
> http://www.sportsinjurybulletin.com/img/040sib_fig4.gif
> http://www.sportsinjurybulletin.com/img/040sib_fig5.gif

I did loads of specific rotator cuff exercises and they never did
anything for me (with possible and minor exception of Cuban press).
Snatches did plenty of good, though.

Nowadays I follow the mode of thinking I picked up on the net
somewhere, and it says that in case of troubles one should search for
weak synergist muscles, so rotator cuff tear indicates weak upper back
(for example), hamstring pull indicates weak glutes etc.

>> and get a medical opinion. Now that said, if you have a "bad" left
>> shoulder then I would bet money that your right arm is compensating for
>
> It could be.
> But my left shoulder is mostly fine now, I only notice problems with it
> the day after a hard workout. Then its a bit sore.
>
>> My suggestion: Take a very close look at your pec deck form making
>
> My main lifts are:
> bench, incline bench, pullups, rows, squats, deadlift, clean and press,
> curls, dips.
>
> If you did not see my prior post, I pulled a picture from google and
> painted in red where I believe the pain is. (hard to pinpoint since it
> mainly hurts when I am doing a pullup)
>
> http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i278/tforms1/z.jpg

It won't work. Until you have something really common and clear, net
diagnosis will always be hit or miss affair.

From my experience - when your shoulder complains, it is right. Drop
what makes him complain and give it a rest. Like *months* of rest.
There are other and exciting exercises so why not find something witch
is 100% fine for your shoulder and concentrate on it for a while?

It can be fun.

BTW - check your mobility. I bet it sucks big time.
--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: What to do about This pain? 

> have some kind of tendonitis in that location.

Thats what I assume it is.

> your finger in the general area. Try to find a spot where you finger
> sort of fits into. Ideally on a tender spot. Try applying pressure

I work in a conference room with 8 other people, I'll try this tonight.

Thanks
 >> Stay informed about: What to do about This pain? 

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 >> Stay informed about: What to do about This pain? 

> The only other thing I can think of to try is to do some stretches
> that involve your arms over the head. That might loosen it up some
> before the exercise.

I need to do this.
What types of stretches do you recommend?
Hang from a pullup bar?
Hands on a bar (above my head) and lean forward? (like a pullover)
Arm circles?

Thanks
 >> Stay informed about: What to do about This pain? 

> > When I was in rehab, I saw other people who had tears, impingment, and
> > other injuries, and we all did the SAME exercises!
> > lol
>
> Makes one think, doesn't it?

lol, I already have a dim view on doctors, lol.
I got my right elbow "popped" while wrestling and went to see the
orthopedist for the NY Knicks. His assistant came in and asked me
questions then he came in for 2 minutes, and asked me to stretch my
forearm, and he asked if it was tight, I said yes he said "Yes, I knew
it golfers elbow"
and I said "But my LEFT forearm is tight also, my whole body is tight,
my right elbow was yanked in the wrong direction, thats why it hurts"
But he said "Im the doctor...."

> I'm not sure, but I tend to think that bad posture can contribute to
> shoulder problems even without significant imbalance. Also there are
> those simple overuse injuries which you get by doing all things right,
> but to much of it.

Yes, posture probably messes up shoulders too.
Bad posture causes/or caused by - tight chests and loose backs.


> I say, try to figure it out on your own. It would be wonderful to get

Yes


> it than to follow some random opinion of someone who thinks he knows
> something.

True, but another reason for posting, is I figure if 6 people post and
4 all say 1 thing, then perhaps that 1 thing is correct. Of course I
would use my own logic and judgement also.


> Which I happen to believe are sort of worthless... Deadlifts fixed my
> back, not crunches. Crunches made it worse.

I think it depends, a lot of lower back pain is caused by weak abs and
tight hamstrings which pulls the body out of wack.
But I know if I do not workout for more than 4 days my lower back
hurts.


> Chins lower your shoulder blades, so in case of problem like yours I'll
> look at exercises which _elevate_ them. High pulls, power cleans, some
> row variations, standing face pulls, even upright rows if you happen to
> tolerate them and last but not least snatches.

Well, I already do cleans and presses, regular shoulder presses,
barbell and dumbbell rows.
But as I said in my first post when I finish with the clean (barbell at
neck area) and when I low it, as it gets to the knee area, it pulls on
my arms and it hurts the armpit area.
I assume this would happen on pulls also, when I lower the bar.


> I'd drop chins altogether and replace them with one of aforementioned
> exercises and see what happens. You can build tremendous back without
> chins. See some old-school back routines.

I still buy into the old thought process (could be wrong) that
pullups/chinups work width, while rows (all types) work thickness.


> > lol, my hamstrings are as tight as a 10 year old rubber band!
>
> Do Romanian deadlifts. Or go full monty and do the routine I mentioned
> above. You basically put the bar on the floor and add weight as you go
> through exercises and then remove it as you continue.

I already do Stiff leg deadlifts.

Thanks
 >> Stay informed about: What to do about This pain? 

> > I already do Stiff leg deadlifts.
>
> Romanian deadlift is slightly different with more stretch in

Whats the difference?
Is it a technical difference or just a style thing (Romanian you
stretch more and use less weight)


> they should help for tight hams. Doing "stretchy" exercises works for
> me, because I can't discipline myself to do real stretching.

lol, me too!


> Anyway - cut things which hurt you. If cleans hurt you, ditch them.
> Chins hurt you, so ditch them first. Sometimes you do everything right
> but your body is not able to keep up anyway.

Yeah....I guess now might be a good time to go lighter and higher reps
(I usually go heavy and 5 reps) and lose some fat.

> Other option is to change a way you do things. For example you might
> go to the pulley machine and do unilateral pulldows in some specific
> way which does not hurt. Or maybe do pull-overs instead of chins (at
> least as a mobility exercise)?

Yeah, I might change my weight amount and reps and maybe go lighter and
more reps and do uni-laterally....


> months. Today I discovered that some nasty popping in my left shoulder
> is non-existent any more!

Nice!
What did you do? Just stopped doing exercises that was bothering it?


> So I congratulate myself and wish you all the best.

Thanks for everything
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