incline bench press

On Jan 4, 11:53 am, Prisoner at War <prisoner_at_... RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jan 4, 11:29 am, Bartleby <arroy... RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Hi
>
> > I want to improve my incline bench press 5RM.
>
> > I have almost no experience with a flat or an incline bench press so I
> > would appreciate suggestions on everything relating to form and
> > technique. I want to progressively increase the weights and am not
> > interested in a strictly bodybuilding approach. I think I can figure
> > out the cycling or periodization aspect (if not, I'll ask later) and
> > just want to know stuff like range for bench angle; grip technque and
> > spacing; distance from bar to upper chest at bottom position,
> > depending on bench angle; whether forearms should always be vertical;
> > angle of upper arms to rib cage (45-60 degrees, based on individual
> > variations in arm length and torso girth?); need for foot braces if
> > seat is too high or legs are too short?); arc of press (up and
> > slightly to rear over nose?), degree of back arch, position of heels
> > (in front of imaginary line dropped from knees?), need to pull up on
> > transversus (how?); breathing; assistance exercises; etc.
>
> > Thanks for any help, including urls.
>
> All those considerations make for an interesting usenet thread, but
> the real answer to your question is: don't worry about it.
>
> Your body will tell you how to handle the weight. Trust yourself.
> The great thing about activities like weight-lifting is that there's a
> zen-like sensibility that takes over: when you're under 315-lbs., you
> no longer think "how am I doing?" or "what should I be doing?" but you
> simply try your best to put it up! So trust your body to do what it
> does best: remember, seven million years of evolution can't be wrong!
>
> As for myself -- just to give you an idea -- my 1RM is 335-lbs. I
> work out with 275-lbs. and 315-lbs. I do, depending on how I feel,
> various sets and reps at those weights (after a warm-up of eleven reps
> at 225-lbs.; you should almost always warm up some). I've heard that
> forearms ought to be directly underneath the bar ("vertical," as you
> say); elbows should be tucked, not flared; bar should hit lower pecs
> area but over chin or nose or even eyes at the apex...and I do any of
> those things for fun. But most of all, I just trust my body to be
> smarter than I am when it comes to physical matters, and let it lift
> the weight however it wants. Aside from no butt-squirming or lifting
> of feet -- competition rules like that -- I just do whatever it takes
> otherwise to rack the weight!
>
> I think the paint-by-numbers or cookbook-recipe approaches put out by
> bodybuilding magazines are mostly useless, especially since they
> always qualify their advice with "YMMV" -- in which case, you're back
> to just listening to your body and working with it.
>
> Work with it, like an artist. Work with your material, your medium.
> Don't try to treat paint the way you would use colored pencils.
>
> You improve any lift by adding weight to it. Learn to honestly listen
> to your body, and you will know whether to tack on 2.5-lbs. a week or
> 10-lbs. a month or whatever your body dictates. That is the alpha and
> omega of it all. Everything in-between is mere commentary.
>
> Which I leave now to our resident experts.


First, thanks for your prompt reply.

It sounds like you have experience with the incline bench press.
Perhaps you know more about the basics than you realize. I, on the
other hand, don't have
any experience with either the flat or the incline bench. This being
the case, I am not willing
at this stage to wing it. Beginners can make bad mistakes, ranging
from lifting unsafely to
lifting unproductively or not as productively as possible.

I don't own any bodybuilding mags. I do own several weightlifting
books. While there are
some discrepancies in the advice offered, all point out important
considerations about various lifts,
in greater or lesser detail.

All that aside, I'm very surprised that you try to lower the bar to
your lower chest when doing inclines.
And then you raise it to your chin, nose or your eyes. Lower chest to
eyes - that's quite an arc!
I would think it would be from upper chest to nose and straight up and
then a bit to the rear. This is just one
area where I'd like good advice.

I've received somewhat discrepant information as to whether the bar
should hit the chest when doing inclines.
Apparently, this is what you do, but I've heard and read that,
depending on the bench angle, one should or should not
touch the bar to the chest. With a very slight incline, one could
touch the chest like in a flat bench. However, with a
steeper incline, lowering the bar close to the chest without touching
it would be advisable in order to avoid shoulder injuries.
I think I want to do inclines at approx a 30 degree angle so I'm
wondering whether an inch or two distance from the chest
would be OK.
 >> Stay informed about: incline bench press 

On Jan 4, 12:31 pm, Bartleby <arroy....RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> First, thanks for your prompt reply.

Not at all...much more interesting than work, after all.

> It sounds like you have experience with the incline bench press.
> Perhaps you know more about the basics than you realize. I, on the
> other hand, don't have
> any experience with either the flat or the incline bench. This being
> the case, I am not willing
> at this stage to wing it. Beginners can make bad mistakes, ranging
> from lifting unsafely to
> lifting unproductively or not as productively as possible.

You are absolutely correct, and I should have addressed the issue of
injuries, which in many other threads I've complained was under-
addressed by this newsgroup as well as bodybuilding magazines and
weight-lifting books in general!

> I don't own any bodybuilding mags. I do own several weightlifting
> books. While there are
> some discrepancies in the advice offered, all point out important
> considerations about various lifts,
> in greater or lesser detail.

Okay, I'm going to respond to your original post point-by-point later.

> All that aside, I'm very surprised that you try to lower the bar to
> your lower chest when doing inclines.
> And then you raise it to your chin, nose or your eyes. Lower chest to
> eyes - that's quite an arc!

Yep, I've read that! There's a site called T-Nation...they're mostly
a bunch of steroid-heads over there, but they do lift serious
weight...one of their articles on the bench press spoke of the
exercise being performed best that way. This article was by a Dave
Somebody-or-Other, who was a big-time strength coach or something over
at the famed gym Westside Barbell in PA or something...anyway, point
is, so many different tips, so don't overly concern yourself with
them. It's entertainment. Something to chat about at the water
cooler.

> I would think it would be from upper chest to nose and straight up and
> then a bit to the rear. This is just one
> area where I'd like good advice.

Almost all the advice you'll ever get on most any subject in weight-
lifting -- and health and fitness in general -- will come with the
disclaimer "YMMV." I was just pointing that out. I'll leave it up to
others to offer their perspectives...if they don't blast you for not
googling first!

> I've received somewhat discrepant information as to whether the bar
> should hit the chest when doing inclines.

And all you'll get is more discrepant information. No one really
knows. Part of the problem is that everyone is built differently.
Someone with shoulder issues would probably not want the bar to go too
low, for example. Me, I like hitting the collar bone on inclines. I
seem to preclude most shoulder issues by narrowing my grip.

> Apparently, this is what you do, but I've heard and read that,
> depending on the bench angle, one should or should not
> touch the bar to the chest. With a very slight incline, one could
> touch the chest like in a flat bench. However, with a
> steeper incline, lowering the bar close to the chest without touching
> it would be advisable in order to avoid shoulder injuries.
> I think I want to do inclines at approx a 30 degree angle so I'm
> wondering whether an inch or two distance from the chest
> would be OK.

Okay by whom? Ultimately, it has to be by you, right?

Remember this: people can explain things to you, but no one can
understand something for you.

I just wanted you to understand, since you sounded like (and have now
confirmed yourself to be) a newbie, that the first thing to know is
that nobody really knows. Which is why you have all that discrepant
information. That doesn't mean we just give up and go home -- it
simply means that we see things as they are: this is all just
entertainment.

Okay, I'm going to specifically address each of your original
questions in another post now.
 >> Stay informed about: incline bench press 

On Jan 4, 11:29 am, Bartleby <arroy....DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi
>
> I want to improve my incline bench press 5RM.

Just remember that everything anyone says will be contradicted, in all
sincerity and often with "proof," by others.

Now, the usual advice for increasing one's lifts is to work with ~80%
of one's 1RM. If your 1RM is 100-lbs., work at 80-lbs.

Also, emphasize poundage over reps in order to improve. That means
even if you can only do five reps at 80-lbs., that's better than 8
reps at 70-lbs.

Interestingly, it's sometimes said that higher reps help build actual
muscle mass, whereas higher poundages might only train for strength,
which may mean more muscle mass or "only" just more of existing muscle
fibers being recruited to work.

> I have almost no experience with a flat or an incline bench press so I
> would appreciate suggestions on everything relating to form and
> technique. I want to progressively increase the weights and am not
> interested in a strictly bodybuilding approach.

Ah, okay -- heavy weights, lower reps and sets for you, then!

> I think I can figure
> out the cycling or periodization aspect (if not, I'll ask later) and
> just want to know stuff like range for bench angle;

If you mean the incline (as opposed to flat) bench press, they usually
recommend an angle like 30 degrees. It seems that you would only want
enough of an angle to target the upper pecs. Basically, as long as
you can feel those muscles working -- as opposed to your front delts
-- that's the angle for you.

> grip technque and
> spacing;

Basics: closer = more triceps, wider = more delts and traps. Those
with shoulder issues are advised to adopt closer grips. The reference
for grip-width is your shoulders: "neutral" spacing would be just an
inch or so wider than your shoulders.

> distance from bar to upper chest at bottom position,

The closer one's bar is to one's lower pecs, the easier it often seems
to lift the weight (on the flat bench press).

> depending on bench angle;

No more than 30 degrees, usually. It all depends on what you want to
achieve. The steeper the incline, the more you're working your
shoulders.

> whether forearms should always be vertical;

It's the recommended form simply because it allows the most efficient
use of energies generated -- straight up (compare running straight
forward as opposed to waddling laterally).

Note that your wrists shouldn't be bent, either, or else your force
also gets dissipated.

> angle of upper arms to rib cage (45-60 degrees, based on individual
> variations in arm length and torso girth?);

Yes.

> need for foot braces if
> seat is too high or legs are too short?);

Yes, if legs aren't bent at close to 90 degrees.

> arc of press (up and
> slightly to rear over nose?),

Whatever works.

> degree of back arch, position of heels
> (in front of imaginary line dropped from knees?),

Whatever works.

> need to pull up on
> transversus (how?);

Actually, I think that theory has been disproved.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E02EEDA113BF93BA35751C...6E95826

> breathing;

It's recommended that you hold your breath during most of the rep,
when under greatest exertion. I breathe out forcefully, like giving a
karate chop or something (sort of; I'm not a real grunter), at lift-
off, then take a deep but quick breath, though not too hurried a
breath, as I slowly lower the bar to my chest. I then lift it back
up, all the while holding that breath, and finally breathe out
forcefully again once I've cleared the last "sticking point," and only
take another breath when the bar is back on the rack securely. The
whole process takes anywhere from five seconds when fresh and strong
to ten seconds when training to failure (when training to failure I
often find it necessary to take another breath before the rep is
completed as described).

Notice that you probably do that already, quite naturally.

> assistance exercises;

Working on your triceps REALLY helps out with bench presses. Ditto
your delts, particularly the front delt. Some even claim working on
your back helps. Ultimately, it simply depends on where you choose to
draw the line, as the human body is all intricately connected -- "the
leg bone connects to the thigh bone, the thigh bone connects to the
hip bone" -- and distinctions, if analyzed severely enough, will
usually fail.

> etc.

Main thing is: don't worry about it.

> Thanks for any help, including urls.

Start with T-Nation and the fora on bodybuilding.com. A whole mess to
wade through right there. For added chuckles, google MFW's archives
with keywords like "bench press" and "sexy."
 >> Stay informed about: incline bench press 

On Jan 4, 11:29 am, Bartleby <arroy....DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi
>
> I want to improve my incline bench press 5RM.
>
> I have almost no experience with a flat or an incline bench press so I
> would appreciate suggestions <snip>

Go to the gym.

Repeat the following phrase to someone who looks like they can bench:
"Hey, can you demonstrate the incline bench? I'm totally unfamiliar
with the lift, thanks."

Just as you won't easily learn to ride a bike through simply text
instructions, benching is something best learned at the gym. Get to
it!

--
Curt
 >> Stay informed about: incline bench press 

On Jan 4, 7:25 pm, Curt <curtja....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 4, 11:29 am, Bartleby <arroy....TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi
>
> > I want to improve my incline bench press 5RM.
>
> > I have almost no experience with a flat or an incline bench press so I
> > would appreciate suggestions <snip>
>
> Go to the gym.
>
> Repeat the following phrase to someone who looks like they can bench:
> "Hey, can you demonstrate the incline bench? I'm totally unfamiliar
> with the lift, thanks."
>
> Just as you won't easily learn to ride a bike through simply text
> instructions, benching is something best learned at the gym. Get to
> it!
>
> --
> Curt


You're right about learning through watching someone do it. . .
correctly.

I'm not quite sure about the approaching someone who looks like he can
bench. If I don't know how to bench, how would I be able to recognize
someone who is using good form and technique?

I belong to a gym and am not unfamiliar with lifting. I've done this
off and on for years. I've just never benched.

On a whim, I just bought a chest video at a vitamin store for $15
(Chest, Animal Training Series, Vol II ) www.animalpak.com
Maybe after watching it, I'll know who to approach at the gym.
 >> Stay informed about: incline bench press 

On Jan 4, 2:05 pm, Prisoner at War <prisoner_at_... RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jan 4, 11:29 am, Bartleby <arroy... RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi
>
> > I want to improve my incline bench press 5RM.
>
> Just remember that everything anyone says will be contradicted, in all
> sincerity and often with "proof," by others.
>
> Now, the usual advice for increasing one's lifts is to work with ~80%
> of one's 1RM.  If your 1RM is 100-lbs., work at 80-lbs.
>
> Also, emphasize poundage over reps in order to improve.  That means
> even if you can only do five reps at 80-lbs., that's better than 8
> reps at 70-lbs.

OK
>
> Interestingly, it's sometimes said that higher reps help build actual
> muscle mass, whereas higher poundages might only train for strength,
> which may mean more muscle mass or "only" just more of existing muscle
> fibers being recruited to work.
>
> > I have almost no experience with a flat or an incline bench press so I
> > would appreciate suggestions on everything relating to form and
> > technique.  I want to progressively increase the weights and am not
> > interested in a strictly bodybuilding approach.
>
> Ah, okay -- heavy weights, lower reps and sets for you, then!

OK
>
> >   I think I can figure
> > out the cycling or periodization aspect (if not, I'll ask later) and
> > just want to know stuff like range for bench angle;
>
> If you mean the incline (as opposed to flat) bench press, they usually
> recommend an angle like 30 degrees.  It seems that you would only want
> enough of an angle to target the upper pecs.  Basically, as long as
> you can feel those muscles working -- as opposed to your front delts
> -- that's the angle for you.

OK
>
> > grip technque and
> > spacing;
>
> Basics: closer = more triceps, wider = more delts and traps.  Those
> with shoulder issues are advised to adopt closer grips.  The reference
> for grip-width is your shoulders: "neutral" spacing would be just an
> inch or so wider than your shoulders.
>
> > distance from bar to upper chest at bottom position,
>
> The closer one's bar is to one's lower pecs, the easier it often seems
> to lift the weight (on the flat bench press).
>
> > depending on bench angle;
>
> No more than 30 degrees, usually.  It all depends on what you want to
> achieve.  The steeper the incline, the more you're working your
> shoulders.
>
> >  whether forearms should always be vertical;
>
> It's the recommended form simply because it allows the most efficient
> use of energies generated -- straight up (compare running straight
> forward as opposed to waddling laterally).

Hard to imagine how I can keep my forearms vertical with wide grip
spacing.
With respect to distance from upper chest at the bottom using a 30
degree incline and a barbell, I think I'll stop an inch or two away.
>
> Note that your wrists shouldn't be bent, either, or else your force
> also gets dissipated.

OK
>
> > angle of upper arms to rib cage (45-60 degrees, based on individual
> > variations in arm length and torso girth?);
>
> Yes.

OK
>
> > need for foot braces if
> > seat is too high or legs are too short?);
>
> Yes, if legs aren't bent at close to 90 degrees.
>
> >  arc of press (up and
> > slightly to rear over nose?),
>
> Whatever works.

Not sure about that.
>
> > degree of back arch, position of heels
> > (in front of imaginary line dropped from knees?),

Not sure about that either. For example, don't I want to avoid an
exaggerated arch on the incline bench press?
To avoid excessive arching, shouldn't I keep my heels in front of an
imaginary line dropped from the knees?
>
> Whatever works.
>
> > need to pull up on
> > transversus (how?);
>
> Actually, I think that theory has been disproved.
>
> http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E02EEDA113BF93BA35751...

? "Dr. Bachrach also advocates working a fourth muscle, the
transversus abdominis, which lies deep beneath the other abdominals.
Although it is not involved in moving the spine, it contracts to
stabilize and support it, a function Dr. Bachrach and many others
believe is important for spinal health and good posture. Forceful
breathing while tightening the abdominals or exercises that call upon
the abdominals to contract without any resultant spinal movement train
the transversus as well as the other abs."
>
> > breathing;
>
> It's recommended that you hold your breath during most of the rep,
> when under greatest exertion.  I breathe out forcefully, like giving a
> karate chop or something (sort of; I'm not a real grunter), at lift-
> off, then take a deep but quick breath, though not too hurried a
> breath, as I slowly lower the bar to my chest.  I then lift it back
> up, all the while holding that breath, and finally breathe out
> forcefully again once I've cleared the last "sticking point," and only
> take another breath when the bar is back on the rack securely.  The
> whole process takes anywhere from five seconds when fresh and strong
> to ten seconds when training to failure (when training to failure I
> often find it necessary to take another breath before the rep is
> completed as described).

Holding one's breath to stabilize the spine is probably the best idea
for a powerlifter in good health.
I probably will try to find an alternative like letting out my air
under pressure.
>
> Notice that you probably do that already, quite naturally.
>
> > assistance exercises;
>
> Working on your triceps REALLY helps out with bench presses.  Ditto
> your delts, particularly the front delt.  Some even claim working on
> your back helps.  Ultimately, it simply depends on where you choose to
> draw the line, as the human body is all intricately connected -- "the
> leg bone connects to the thigh bone, the thigh bone connects to the
> hip bone" -- and distinctions, if analyzed severely enough, will
> usually fail.

No traps work?
>
> > etc.
>
> Main thing is: don't worry about it.
>
> > Thanks for any help, including urls.
>
> Start with T-Nation and the fora on bodybuilding.com.  A whole mess to
> wade through right there.  For added chuckles, google MFW's archives
> with keywords like "bench press" and "sexy."

I think I'll avoid the "sexy" research. I belong to an ugly gym,
meaning more than a few ugly men and almost no women in a gym that
would be ugly even if packed with Victoria Secrets models! The one or
two women who belong to my gym wouldn't interest me even if I weren't
happily married.

I'll check out T-Nation and bodybuilding.com (even though I'm not into
bodybuilding).

Thanks!
 >> Stay informed about: incline bench press 

On Jan 4, 8:34 pm, Bartleby <arroy....DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> <SNIP>
>
>
> Hard to imagine how I can keep my forearms vertical with wide grip
> spacing.

Just another reason not to use a wide grip!

> With respect to distance from upper chest at the bottom using a 30
> degree incline and a barbell, I think I'll stop an inch or two away.

Since you started asking about the flat bench press, that's what I was
talking about, except where specifically noted otherwise.

For the incline, they generally recommend that you lower the barbell
to the upper pecs, naturally enough. 30 degrees is the recommended
incline, though many of the "static" or "set" incline benches seem
stuck at closer to 45 degrees, for which I lower the bar only to my
collar bones, which is low enough.

BTW, you might want to consider doing your benches -- flat, inclined,
and even the rather useless declined version -- with dumbbells. They
are said to give the muscles a much better workout, and are generally
safer, too.

><SNIP>
>
>
> Not sure about that.

Main thing is that your lift is up, and in control. It would seem
that over-the-chin is a shorter arc and thus less energy expended, but
for some reason some people take it as far as over their noses or even
their eyes (!).

> <SNIP>
>
>
> Not sure about that either. For example, don't I want to avoid an
> exaggerated arch on the incline bench press?

I'm not sure what an "exaggerated arch" would be...my experience has
been that the lower back arches naturally. Now I have a herniated
disc there -- that means a very, very bad back (I have great trouble
putting on socks!) -- but my back arches all on its own, with no
problems at all. I'm not sure if it's possible to have an exaggerated
arch there, whatever that means. When you're lifting, I really don't
think these thoughts are running through your head, anyway. That's
what I'd meant by my long sermon on "trusting your body" (when you've
learned to honestly listen to it). Just do it. It'll all fall into
place. Don't get egotistical and go crazy with the weights and hurt
yourself, but don't suffer from the "paralysis of analysis" either.

> To avoid excessive arching, shouldn't I keep my heels in front of an
> imaginary line dropped from the knees?

Yes, it would be more difficult to arch your back when your heels are
farther forward of your knees. However, know that an arched back
helps you lift greater weight -- and, believe it or not, your legs do
have a role to play in the flat bench press! Yes, it's perfectly
legit, and safe, for your to use your legs to help "solidify" your
lift. You're not supposed to lift your feet off the ground in
competition, but what I mean is to have a good stance -- typically one
that affords the best arch -- for a foundation through which all the
energy of your rigid body is conducted through your chest and into
your arms.

> ? "Dr. Bachrach also advocates working a fourth muscle, the
> transversus abdominis, which lies deep beneath the other abdominals.
> Although it is not involved in moving the spine, it contracts to
> stabilize and support it, a function Dr. Bachrach and many others
> believe is important for spinal health and good posture. Forceful
> breathing while tightening the abdominals or exercises that call upon
> the abdominals to contract without any resultant spinal movement train
> the transversus as well as the other abs."

Oops!! God-danged search engines...it was an article in the NYT, one
of them "ask the doctor" kind of columns they do where they
investigate health myths and so forth...it was an article on the myth
of the so-called stomach vacuum, which your "pulling on the
transversus" sounded like...sorry, I can't @#$%& find it!!

> Holding one's breath to stabilize the spine is probably the best idea
> for a powerlifter in good health.
> I probably will try to find an alternative like letting out my air
> under pressure.

Problem with letting air out under pressure is that if you're lifting
heavy, you're likely to fail. The whole point of holding your breath
under such conditions is to make of your torso a solid foundation upon
which your pecs and arms in general can push off of...if you let the
air out, your torso goes down, which is like sweeping the rug from
underneath your pecs and arms while they're trying to get the weight
up!

Of course, as with everything else, there's a dangerous aspect to
holding one's breath, too...rare, but some folks have had problems
from the enormous increase in blood pressure that comes from holding
one's breath...also, at some point, it becomes counterproductive as
the carbon dioxide builds up in your lungs....

> No traps work?

Sure, in a way -- your abs contract, too, during a flat bench press
(and someone out there probably wrinkles his nose as well!)...but the
main muscles by far in this movement are the pecs and triceps.

> I think I'll avoid the "sexy" research. I belong to an ugly gym,
> meaning more than a few ugly men and almost no women in a gym that
> would be ugly even if packed with Victoria Secrets models!

Heh heh, sounds hard-core!

> The one or
> two women who belong to my gym wouldn't interest me even if I weren't
> happily married.

Well, maybe bench pressing will elevate your testosterone levels,
then!

> I'll check out T-Nation and bodybuilding.com (even though I'm not into
> bodybuilding).

Many bodybuilding principles can be applied to a strength training
regimen. You'll know which ones to avoid -- hence keywords like
"sexy" and "tan" or "do my glutes look too big" -- but, especially
just starting out, bodybuilding *IS* weight-training....

> Thanks!

Update us on your progress. It's always inspirational to hear about
newbies making big gains!
 >> Stay informed about: incline bench press