SamE = fat and happy?

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 >> Stay informed about: SamE = fat and happy? 

In article <17633 DeleteThis @134412590.57419254.11577.6155.20901>,
DZ <9456 DeleteThis @2196910326.230324815.18363.11851.13323.com> wrote:

> WillBrink wrote:
> > JMW <jmw DeleteThis @event.horizon> wrote:
> >> WillBrink wrote:
> >> > DZ wrote:
> >>>> Can you post the summary here? I know that SAMe needs to be taken
> >>>> with B vitamins to protect from the increase of
> >>>> homocysteine. Anything else?
> >>
> >>>I didn't know SAMe raised homocysteine. Is it not also a methyl
> >>>donor(?), which in theory, should lower homocysteine.
> >>>
> >>> Giulidori P, Galli-Kienle M, Catto E, Stramentinoli G.
> >>> Transmethylation, transsulfuration, and aminopropylation
> >>> reactions of S- adenosyl-L-methionine in vivo. J Biol Chem
> >>> 1984;259:4205-11
> >>
> >> No elevation of homocysteine in fifteen test subjects at 1600mg/day of
> >> SAMe.
> >
> > As a methyl donor, I would have expected to see a drop in homocysteine
> > as you do with other methyl donors.
>
> The effect can be opposite if they are a part of the methionine cycle
> (methionine -> SAMe -> SAH <-> homocysteine -> back to
> methionine). For example, it would make sense that methionine, which
> is also a methyl donor, would raise homocysteine. But those methyl
> donors that speed up re-methylation of homocysteine back to methionine
> can reduce its concentration.

As John pointed out, it does not appear to increase homocysteine. I was
under the impression it lowered it, but perhaps it has no effects either
way. Have not looked into it much.

>
> So, I have some vague interest in SAMe but I'm undecided on pros and
> cons. There is some evidence that methionine reduces lifespan.

Are there any SAMe life span studies in animals perhaps?

--
Will Brink @ http://www.brinkzone.com/
 >> Stay informed about: SamE = fat and happy? 

"WillBrink" <WillBrink*NOSPAM*@Comcast.net> wrote
> DZ <9456.DeleteThis@2196910326.230324815.18363.11851.13323.com> wrote:
>> WillBrink wrote:
>> > JMW <jmw.DeleteThis@event.horizon> wrote:
>> >> WillBrink wrote:
>> >> > DZ wrote:
>> >>>> Can you post the summary here? I know that SAMe needs to be taken
>> >>>> with B vitamins to protect from the increase of
>> >>>> homocysteine. Anything else?
>> >>
>> >>>I didn't know SAMe raised homocysteine. Is it not also a methyl
>> >>>donor(?), which in theory, should lower homocysteine.
>> >>>
>> >>> Giulidori P, Galli-Kienle M, Catto E, Stramentinoli G.
>> >>> Transmethylation, transsulfuration, and aminopropylation
>> >>> reactions of S- adenosyl-L-methionine in vivo. J Biol Chem
>> >>> 1984;259:4205-11
>> >>
>> >> No elevation of homocysteine in fifteen test subjects at 1600mg/day of
>> >> SAMe.
>> >
>> > As a methyl donor, I would have expected to see a drop in homocysteine
>> > as you do with other methyl donors.
>>
>> The effect can be opposite if they are a part of the methionine cycle
>> (methionine -> SAMe -> SAH <-> homocysteine -> back to
>> methionine). For example, it would make sense that methionine, which
>> is also a methyl donor, would raise homocysteine. But those methyl
>> donors that speed up re-methylation of homocysteine back to methionine
>> can reduce its concentration.
>
> As John pointed out, it does not appear to increase homocysteine. I was
> under the impression it lowered it, but perhaps it has no effects either
> way. Have not looked into it much.
>
>> So, I have some vague interest in SAMe but I'm undecided on pros and
>> cons. There is some evidence that methionine reduces lifespan.
>
> Are there any SAMe life span studies in animals perhaps?

Allow me to add my cheap Jew comment at this point: SAMe is freakin'
expensive!!

David
 >> Stay informed about: SamE = fat and happy? 

Jason Earl <jearl.DeleteThis@xmission.com> wrote:

>DZ <21570.DeleteThis@254720045.1822716872.19278.11617.4350> writes:
>
>> JMW <jmw.DeleteThis@event.horizon> wrote:
>>> Or ask Cohen if I know what I'm talking about.
>>
>> Can you post the summary here? I know that SAMe needs to be taken
>> with B vitamins to protect from the increase of
>> homocysteine. Anything else?
>
>If you can't post the summary here, then I would be interested in the
>information that you have. The email address that I use for USENET is
>valid.

Done.
 >> Stay informed about: SamE = fat and happy? 

"Larry Hodges" <2larry2 DeleteThis @2maximizesoftware2.com> wrote:

>"JMW" <jmw DeleteThis @event.horizon> wrote in message
>news:j725r15ilco1v78uhl1igbpb4hb4h1vmu1@4ax.com...
>> DZ <21570 DeleteThis @254720045.1822716872.19278.11617.4350> wrote:
>>
>>>JMW <jmw DeleteThis @event.horizon> wrote:
>>>> Or ask Cohen if I know what I'm talking about.
>>>
>>>Can you post the summary here?
>>
>> I prefer not to do so. I'll email it if you're interested. I recall
>> you saying in the past that you weren't interested in a stack that
>> acted as a stimulant.
>
>I'm interested, and have been thinking about starting SamE this winter with
>all the rain. Can you email me as well John? Remember, remove the "2"s.

Done.
 >> Stay informed about: SamE = fat and happy? 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: SamE = fat and happy? 

"JMW" <jmwilliams_56.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote
> David Cohen wrote:
>>
>> Allow me to add my cheap Jew comment at this point: SAMe is freakin'
>> expensive!!
>
> But it does have a half-decent and enduring stimulant effect in
> combination with some other natural substrates and xenobiotics, correct?

Yes.

And it's freakin' expensive!

David
 >> Stay informed about: SamE = fat and happy? 

"David Cohen" <sammiesdad.DeleteThis@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>"JMW" <jmwilliams_56.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote
>> David Cohen wrote:
>>>
>>> Allow me to add my cheap Jew comment at this point: SAMe is freakin'
>>> expensive!!
>>
>> But it does have a half-decent and enduring stimulant effect in
>> combination with some other natural substrates and xenobiotics, correct?
>
>Yes.
>
>And it's freakin' expensive!

All a matter of preferences. Many folks, if not most, wouldn't even
consider spending the exorbitant amounts you do on elite-branded
firearms, cutlery, and dog food.
 >> Stay informed about: SamE = fat and happy? 

"DZ" <7029 DeleteThis @2959914386.306626215.8734.21123.10001> wrote
> David Cohen <sammiesdad DeleteThis @earthlink.net> wrote:
>> "WillBrink" wrote
>>> DZ wrote:
>>>> WillBrink wrote:
>>>>> JMW <jmw DeleteThis @event.horizon> wrote:
>>>>>> WillBrink wrote:
>>>>>> > DZ wrote:
>>>>>>>> Can you post the summary here? I know that SAMe needs to be taken
>>>>>>>> with B vitamins to protect from the increase of
>>>>>>>> homocysteine. Anything else?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I didn't know SAMe raised homocysteine. Is it not also a methyl
>>>>>>>donor(?), which in theory, should lower homocysteine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No elevation of homocysteine in fifteen test subjects at
>>>>>> 1600mg/day of SAMe.
>>>>>> Giulidori P, Galli-Kienle M, Catto E, Stramentinoli G.
>>>>>> Transmethylation, transsulfuration, and aminopropylation
>>>>>> reactions of S- adenosyl-L-methionine in vivo. J Biol Chem
>>>>>> 1984;259:4205-11
>>>>>
>>>>> As a methyl donor, I would have expected to see a drop in homocysteine
>>>>> as you do with other methyl donors.
>>>>
>>>> The effect can be opposite if they are a part of the methionine cycle
>>>> (methionine -> SAMe -> SAH <-> homocysteine -> back to
>>>> methionine). For example, it would make sense that methionine, which
>>>> is also a methyl donor, would raise homocysteine. But those methyl
>>>> donors that speed up re-methylation of homocysteine back to methionine
>>>> can reduce its concentration.
>>>
>>> As John pointed out, it does not appear to increase homocysteine. I was
>>> under the impression it lowered it, but perhaps it has no effects either
>>> way. Have not looked into it much.
>
> There was actually some increase in that study, measured at both week
> 2 and week 4 during the experiment. They say that it wasn't
> statistically significant (baseline: 6.93 +- 1.52; week 2: 7.58 +-
> 2.10; week 4: 7.29 +- 1.91).
>
> As they report, the difference week 2 vs. baseline has the p-value of
> 0.05; and week 4 vs. baseline has the p-value of 0.115. They probably
> thought that because of the 2 comparisons made here, the 0.05 level
> needs to be 2 times more stringent or so. But this is not the case,
> because they're testing the same hypothesis. If we're interested in
> the overall effect, baseline vs. supplementation, we can in fact
> combine p1=0.05 and p2=0.115 values. Here is a handy formula that me
> and Lev derived. It's a reduction from a more general case that we
> published
>
> Denote w=p1*p2. Then the overall "significance" is
> p12 = w*(1-ln(w)) = 0.035.
>
> In this case, p12 is smaller than either p1 or p2. That is, there is a
> statistically significant increase in homocysteine levels. Of course,
> the magnitude of the increase might be too small to be of any
> practical importance.
>
>>>> So, I have some vague interest in SAMe but I'm undecided on pros and
>>>> cons. There is some evidence that methionine reduces lifespan.
>>>
>>> Are there any SAMe life span studies in animals perhaps?
>>
>> Allow me to add my cheap Jew comment at this point: SAMe is freakin'
>> expensive!!
>
> Certainly, putting rats on calorie restriction is a lot cheaper then
> giving them extra anything!

If I could get by on rat-sized doses, I wouldn't bitch about the price.

But I can't, so, BITCH BITCH BITCH.

David
 >> Stay informed about: SamE = fat and happy? 

JMW wrote:
> "David Cohen" <sammiesdad.TakeThisOut@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >"JMW" <jmwilliams_56.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote
> >> David Cohen wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Allow me to add my cheap Jew comment at this point: SAMe is freakin'
> >>> expensive!!
> >>
> >> But it does have a half-decent and enduring stimulant effect in
> >> combination with some other natural substrates and xenobiotics, correct?
> >
> >Yes.
> >
> >And it's freakin' expensive!
>
> All a matter of preferences. Many folks, if not most, wouldn't even
> consider spending the exorbitant amounts you do on elite-branded
> firearms, cutlery, and dog food.

Oh, but that is vastly different. Firearms, knives, and dogs (in
reverse order)are objectively provable as more important that
supplements. Or even most pharmaceuticals. Or anything else, really.
Except one's own kids. Usually. On good days, at least. When they're
asleep.

David
 >> Stay informed about: SamE = fat and happy? 

"JMW" <jmw.RemoveThis@event.horizon> wrote in message
news:04s6r1hv7asdr7il40p1522m2b2jrt7804@4ax.com...
> "Larry Hodges" <2larry2.RemoveThis@2maximizesoftware2.com> wrote:
>
>>"JMW" <jmw.RemoveThis@event.horizon> wrote in message
>>news:j725r15ilco1v78uhl1igbpb4hb4h1vmu1@4ax.com...
>>> DZ <21570.RemoveThis@254720045.1822716872.19278.11617.4350> wrote:
>>>
>>>>JMW <jmw.RemoveThis@event.horizon> wrote:
>>>>> Or ask Cohen if I know what I'm talking about.
>>>>
>>>>Can you post the summary here?
>>>
>>> I prefer not to do so. I'll email it if you're interested. I recall
>>> you saying in the past that you weren't interested in a stack that
>>> acted as a stimulant.
>>
>>I'm interested, and have been thinking about starting SamE this winter
>>with
>>all the rain. Can you email me as well John? Remember, remove the "2"s.
>
> Done.

Got it....thanks John. Looks interesting.
 >> Stay informed about: SamE = fat and happy? 

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 13:45:27 -0500, JMW <jmw.DeleteThis@event.horizon> wrote:

>WillBrink <WillBrink*NOSPAM*@Comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>In article <12909.DeleteThis@3039922182.553826526.23792.31723.24250>,
>> DZ <21570.DeleteThis@254720045.1822716872.19278.11617.4350> wrote:
>>
>>> JMW <jmw.DeleteThis@event.horizon> wrote:
>>> > Or ask Cohen if I know what I'm talking about.
>>>
>>> Can you post the summary here? I know that SAMe needs to be taken with
>>> B vitamins to protect from the increase of homocysteine. Anything
>>> else?
>>
>>I didn't know SAMe raised homocysteine. Is it not also a methyl
>>donor(?), which in theory, should lower homocysteine.
>>
>> Giulidori P, Galli-Kienle M, Catto E, Stramentinoli G.
>>Transmethylation, transsulfuration, and aminopropylation reactions of S-
>>adenosyl-L-methionine in vivo. J Biol Chem 1984;259:4205-11
>
>
>No elevation of homocysteine in fifteen test subjects at 1600mg/day of
>SAMe.
>
>Goren JL, Stoll AL, Damico KE, Sarmiento IA, Cohen BM. Bioavailability
>and lack of toxicity of S-adenosyl-L-methionine (SAMe) in humans.
>Pharmacotherapy. 2004 Nov;24(11):1501-7.
>
>That's way more than I recommend, but like I said, I consider the SAMe
>to be part of a synergistic mix. You may not remember it, but I
>discussed this a little bit when we met for dinner in Cambridge.

For those that don't want to be left in the dark about SamE by those
who would like to make a black art of drug taking, here is a simple
background:

http://www.biopsychiatry.com/sameart.html

HTH
 >> Stay informed about: SamE = fat and happy? 

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 00:13:29 -0500, JMW <jmw DeleteThis @event.horizon> wrote:

>Jason Earl <jearl DeleteThis @xmission.com> wrote:
>
>>DZ <21570 DeleteThis @254720045.1822716872.19278.11617.4350> writes:
>>
>>> JMW <jmw DeleteThis @event.horizon> wrote:
>>>> Or ask Cohen if I know what I'm talking about.
>>>
>>> Can you post the summary here? I know that SAMe needs to be taken
>>> with B vitamins to protect from the increase of
>>> homocysteine. Anything else?
>>
>>If you can't post the summary here, then I would be interested in the
>>information that you have. The email address that I use for USENET is
>>valid.
>
>Done.

But he will know that if you have emailed him; why do you want the
rest of us to know?

You are a great tart John Williams! ;o)
 >> Stay informed about: SamE = fat and happy?