Building your own gym equipment

On Jan 8, 9:50 pm, Bartleby <arroy... RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> To protect one's shoulders. I could give you a number of books and
> urls which say that, unlike the flat bench, the
> bar should not touch the chest when doing incline bench presses. This
> is particularly true as the incline degree
> increases. To be fair, however, I could provide citations for
> touching the chest when doing inclines too

Interesting! I do know from my own experience that, yes, not going
down so low is better for my shoulders...but that's on any lift, where
not going all the way is better for the joints! Indeed, not fully
"locking" one's elbows is recommended for the same reasons.

Well, I'll just stick to a 30-degree incline...that's all right for my
shoulders.

> I wasn't aware that there are formal incline competitions. The flat
> bench, on the other hand, is one of the big three PL events.

LOL, sorry, I had in mind the flat bench press all of a sudden!

> I confess I know nothing about bodybuilding. I would still be
> surprised to learn that traditional bodybuilding
> necessarily involves beginners doing squats, deadlifts, and bench
> presses.

Yes, look at the bodybuilding magazines, that's what they always
recommend. It seems that an almost equal preoccupation with dieting
is what really separates bodybuilders from "real" weight-lifters.
Indeed, even at the higher levels of bodybuilding, elite bodybuilders
are very competent and impressive lifters.

> I don't know anything about this. If you say so

I'm curious why you aren't interested in bodybuilding. I mean, why
not look good in addition to being strong? I just got my first issue
of Milo magazine, "the journal for serious strength athletes," and,
strong as those guys are, they mostly look like donut-chasers!
Really, except for the Asians (LOL), everybody else in the December
issue looks like a character from "The Simpsons!"

Just what is the connection between fat and strength?? It almost
looks like one *has to be* fat in order to be among the strongest! I
see photos of fat-bodies heaving stones almost the size of their own
torsos, and I'm thinking, hmmm, if only the guy didn't have a big
belly in the way, too, to heave up as well!! But all the strongmen
are fat -- why is that??

> I don't see why the incline should fall outside the 10-45 degree
> range, but I
> suppose some people want even more shoulder emphasis

Yes, but my God, just imagine a 60-degree incline with a wide-grip!!
What the heck kind of shoulders could such a person have???

> More attention should be given to helping people learn to lift in ways
> which maximize the potential benefit and minimize the risk

I ***TOTALLY*** agree, and I just recently complained about that on
this here newsgroup, too. Unfortunately, there are also divergent
information on this matter, too!

> Will do.

Natch.
 >> Stay informed about: Building your own gym equipment 

On Jan 9, 12:19 pm, Prisoner at War <prisoner_at_....RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jan 8, 9:50 pm, Bartleby <arroy....RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > To protect one's shoulders. I could give you a number of books and
> > urls which say that, unlike the flat bench, the
> > bar should not touch the chest when doing incline bench presses. This
> > is particularly true as the incline degree
> > increases. To be fair, however, I could provide citations for
> > touching the chest when doing inclines too
>
> Interesting! I do know from my own experience that, yes, not going
> down so low is better for my shoulders...but that's on any lift, where
> not going all the way is better for the joints! Indeed, not fully
> "locking" one's elbows is recommended for the same reasons.

Those who say not to touch the bar to one's chest on the incline say
that doing so
would lead to excessive and unsafe extension of your shoulders, and
reduced control and
power coming off the bottom. Nor should you lower the bar to your
neck or near your clavicles -
that positioning is very dangerous for your shoulders.

Locking out is another topic. Doing so takes the weight off your
target muscles. On the other hand,
why not strengthen your tendons by locking out? What's the purpose of
tendons?

>
> Well, I'll just stick to a 30-degree incline...that's all right for my
> shoulders.
>
> > I wasn't aware that there are formal incline competitions. The flat
> > bench, on the other hand, is one of the big three PL events.
>
> LOL, sorry, I had in mind the flat bench press all of a sudden!
>
> > I confess I know nothing about bodybuilding. I would still be
> > surprised to learn that traditional bodybuilding
> > necessarily involves beginners doing squats, deadlifts, and bench
> > presses.
>
> Yes, look at the bodybuilding magazines, that's what they always
> recommend. It seems that an almost equal preoccupation with dieting
> is what really separates bodybuilders from "real" weight-lifters.
> Indeed, even at the higher levels of bodybuilding, elite bodybuilders
> are very competent and impressive lifters.

I'm sure there are some. Ronnie Coleman, for example.
Mariusz Pudzianowski, a top strongman, was once a bodybuilder.
>
> > I don't know anything about this. If you say so
>
> I'm curious why you aren't interested in bodybuilding. I mean, why
> not look good in addition to being strong? I just got my first issue
> of Milo magazine, "the journal for serious strength athletes," and,
> strong as those guys are, they mostly look like donut-chasers!
> Really, except for the Asians (LOL), everybody else in the December
> issue looks like a character from "The Simpsons!"

I'm neither all that strong nor all that good-looking. On the other
hand, I pass my own
and my wife's inspection.

Looking good is a very subjective thing. A lot of people don't much
care for the appearance of pro bodybuilders, male or female.
My top-priority goals don't have anything to do with becoming very
strong. Although I certainly want to get stronger, my gym
goals are really about becoming healthier. With respect to strength
training, I want to lift heavier weights in a way that
maximizes the potential gains and minimizes the potential risks.
That's why I posted about form and technique for incline benching.

Last night I did 225 lb 30 degree inclines in a power rack. I was
very disappointed by how hard this was. I very much doubt I'm
using correct form and technique.
>
> Just what is the connection between fat and strength?? It almost
> looks like one *has to be* fat in order to be among the strongest! I
> see photos of fat-bodies heaving stones almost the size of their own
> torsos, and I'm thinking, hmmm, if only the guy didn't have a big
> belly in the way, too, to heave up as well!! But all the strongmen
> are fat -- why is that??

Maybe big, strong bellies can serve as a shelf on a powerful frame
when lifting stones?
Height is certainly a consideration in certain Strongman events.
>
> > I don't see why the incline should fall outside the 10-45 degree
> > range, but I
> > suppose some people want even more shoulder emphasis
>
> Yes, but my God, just imagine a 60-degree incline with a wide-grip!!
> What the heck kind of shoulders could such a person have???

Some people are nearly superhuman. They remind me of the Adeptus
Astartes
in a book I recently read.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Marines_(Warhammer_40,000)
>
> > More attention should be given to helping people learn to lift in ways
> > which maximize the potential benefit and minimize the risk
>
> I ***TOTALLY*** agree, and I just recently complained about that on
> this here newsgroup, too. Unfortunately, there are also divergent
> information on this matter, too!

Nothing wrong with different perspectives. That's why we're choosing
presidential candidates.

Simon and Garfunkel -

Mrs. Robinson

Sitting on a sofa on a Sunday afternoon
Going to the candidates debate
Laugh about it, shout about it
When you've got to choose
Every way you look at it, you lose
>
> > Will do.
>
> Natch.
 >> Stay informed about: Building your own gym equipment 

On Jan 11, 2:26 pm, Bartleby <arroy....RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> OK, but what I read about not touching the chest was not directed at
> people with a history of shoulder injuries.
> It was meant as preventative advice.

Well, I don't exactly have a "history" of shoulder problems...but it
sounds like good advice even for those who do! Though, of course,
such folks should just go lighter in poundage or avoid the movement in
the first place....

> I've always understood that one function of locked-out joints is to
> support loads.
> Fromhttp://www.forums.pilatesconnections.com/index.php?showtopic=1143&mod...
> (I don't take Pilates.)
> "Imagine your car stalling and you have to push it. Are you going to
> push it with bent arms?
> No, you're going to brace yourself and lock every joint possible.
> That's how you will deliver the most strength.
>
> If a box falls off a high shelf, how are you going to catch it or at
> least soften its fall?"
> With soft joints or locked? The joints are made to be locked out."

You can certainly use them that way, sure -- just like you can take
karate and use your fists as a jackhammer, I suppose!

Best to avoid using your joints to help support the weight, though.
Of course, something like Olympic lifts do just that -- but you ain't
looking to compete in that, right.

> I may never get to 300. I'm at 225 so 300 would be good enough for me.

You mean for a 1RM?

Are you aware of <www.exrx.net/Calculators/OneRepMax.html>??

> Lighter weights alone won't work. I would love to find a good way to
> overcome this problem.

Wait a minute: what, exactly, is the problem? Lighter weights "solve"
99% of all such issues.

> 2 days IBP-ing to date. Having faith is not going to work for me.
> I may not be thinking enough or have a good enough "mental script"
> handy to briefly rehearse what I need to do.

Well, there's a learning curve involved, too.

Isn't there anyone who looks like they know what they're doing in your
gym? Just go look at them. Maybe even hire a personal trainer for
one or two sessions.

> Please explain in terms of these variations enabling a greater or
> lesser amount of weight

Um, what do you need to know? Elbows flared tends to mean more
leverage. Elbows tucked usually means more triceps. Try it (with
light poundage) and see!

> Been there and will return soon, no doubt.
>
>
> Let's see...Who could I use as a weight if I call her a very light
> weight?

Eh??? No, man, I ain't talking about the Kama Sutra here!

> I'd like to read it.
>
>
> When these people walk, they're weight-lifting. A typical fat person
> has
> nothing to do with these guys. I'd be very surprised if one of these
> freakishly strong "fat" men would be as strong as a thinner version
> (barring
> illness, etc.)

And that's just what I'm wondering: what is it about the fat that's so
correlated with strength?? When I diet, I seem to feel a loss of
strength as well -- almost certainly can't try to push my performance
envelope then (when I want to move up in weight I make sure I'm well-
fed that day!) -- even though I've eaten the recommended amount of
protein, etc.

> OK. I don't know whether any famous pianist twiddled his/her thumbs.

You see how all these strongmen can't help picking up heavy things and
so forth? I suspect pianists must be tapping their fingers all the
time, too.

> Accountants run up much better number than weight lifters.

Accountants lie.

> People who pass my test would be more likely to know the answers to
> your test.

Indeed; if that's the case, we wouldn't need elections in the first
place -- only examinations!

> You should write a book, or at least an e-book, on getting it the
> first night

It would only be all of one sentence: find an attractive older woman.

> Smoker's cackle? It may be that, as a pianist, you're just more
> sensitive to
> auditory appeal

I'm no pianist (only a "practitioner"), but I can't quite put my
finger on it...just some quality about how she behaves, and it often
comes out in the way she laughs...I think it's really just the idea
that, for all her age, she's still dumb as a teeny-bopper...I mean, I
like party girls who like to laugh, don't get me wrong, but an older
lady...?? That only reminds me of her age, and makes me think how old
she really is, as if she tried to dress up like some lithe young
thing! I mean, like that one who wanted the whole dating b.s. -- she
actually told me up-front, a propos of nothing at all, that she needed
to be taken out to dinner and the movies...I was like, LMAO, GTFOH!!

> Yeah...my mistake. It would've helped if I had visualized these
> animals.

I wonder who the heck came up with these names. I mean, cougars??
 >> Stay informed about: Building your own gym equipment 

On Jan 13, 3:26 pm, Bartleby <arroy....TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> That's not how I think about it. I typically do multiple 5 rep sets.
> I don't train to failure. I want to have as much gas as possible to
> finish lifting relatively heavy weights with something left in the
> tank.
> That's intense enough for me.

Yes, I often hear that -- "I want something left over." There doesn't
seem to be any conclusive evidence that one way is better than
another. I suppose it all has to do with one's personality. I'm an
extremist -- "Type A personality" -- so I tend to go all the way.

I'll tell you something weird about training to failure, though: I'm
all "psyched" for hours afterwards, even though I'm also tired, such
that I can't sleep for the next two to four hours after a workout!
But a long hard jog has me sleeping almost as soon as I get home!

> Not good at all. Still, I think that one can and should train one's
> joints to support load.

But it's not like they grow bigger or something, or become more
efficient somehow, or that the "jelly" between joints grows thicker or
anything. You're just going to wear them out!

> As I said earlier, I don't know anything about the bench press but I
> wonder whether heavy
> benchers lock out when they accept the bar from the spotter and/or
> before they return the
> bar to the rack with a spotter's help.

I don't ever lock out in that sense because, frankly, there's no need
to. I really don't think you should "go there"...what's a joint but a
hinge? A hinge is for movement, not for direct load-bearing...if you
insist on pursuing such a crazy practice, though, be sure to report
back when you develop joint problems!

> It's said that the devil lies in the details. Maybe that's true
> here. Do benchers who injure
> themselves locking out train joint and ligament strength? Are there
> other reasons why
> inflammation may occur when benchers lock out? Are there form and
> technique factors
> at work?

"Technique factors"?? Yeah, like using joints to bear loads! Wrong
technique right there!

Mind you, "locking out" in the sense I'm talking about isn't "locking
out" in the colloquial sense of "straightening your arms"....

> Lighter helps but I think I need to do a lot of shoulder stabilization
> work too
> and figure out how to lift relatively heavy weights without subjecting
> my shoulder
> to excessive stress.

Basically, anytime the joint is called up to shoulder (no pun
intended) the weight, there's too much weight involved for the muscles
involved.

> Yeah. Books and videos help, but there's no substitute for taking a
> class and getting feedback
> from a good instructor. Classes and individual training sessions can
> both be very helpful.
> Where do I sign up for a bench pressing class?

Just get in touch with your local weightlifting club. Then you can
see people who actually compete at the movement.

> I'm pretty good with inverted and weighted push-ups. Like you, I
> originally thought
> that training inverted, weighted pushups would help with my incline
> bench press.
> I haven't found that to be the case, but I will continue to
> experiment. I've heard that a push-up
> is basically a 2/3 BW bench press. So, if I'm 200 lbs, a pushup would
> be like bench pressing
> 133 lbs. The BP definitely feels harder.

Well, yes, a bench press would be much harder -- that's the whole
point in graduating from push-ups to bench presses, after all! Push-
ups are mainly about "endurance" as opposed to "pure strength" the way
a bench press is, but the motions involved are quite comparable.

> Don't want that. I think I get my best lift with elbows tucked and
> forearms vertical.

I've heard of people swearing by that technique, yes.

> I seem to lose umph when my elbows are away from my body.

Flared elbows recruit the anterior deltoids much more. How are your
front delts?

> I think my
> lats
> are decently strong (but still need work like everything else). Do
> you think that training
> the outer pectoral muscles would help when using a wide-grip incline
> bench press?

Yes, that's the conventional wisdom, though Bob "The Chick" Cicherillo
believes that a wide-grip trains inner pecs while a narrow grip trains
outer pecs!

> If so, how (other than wide-grip BP-ing) would I train these outer
> pecs?

Dumbbell flyes and such similar movements, like pec deck or cables.

> Do they coo and say - in a sultry, husky, cougar way - "You've got a
> lot of nerve."

LOL! Nothing like a good mutual compression of nerving endings!

> I don't know anything about dieting. If the guy lost 20 pounds of
> overall fat and
> didn't increase his lean muscle mass by 20 pounds and still pushed up
> 405,
> he would be lifting a greater percentage of his BW.

Yeah, but I'm wondering whether that extra weight, IOW, hinders
him...whether that fat would constitute what economists call an
opportunity cost....

> I've never thought about my relationships with spotters in terms of
> my relationships with women. I'm now thinking of only benching in
> a power rack!

LOL -- if you don't have a spotter, the power rack is the only way to
go! (Actually, I'd sooner trust a power rack than any spotter where
safety issues are concerned -- a spotter to me is only good for forced
reps!) I'm surprised no one advises that, in all the articles I've
read on the bench press. I myself was one of those lifters who would
sometimes get stuck underneath the bar until I finally figured out on
my own what a power rack was good for! I don't know why it took me
six months to realize it, but I used to pass by the empty power rack
all the time while wishing I had someone to spot me on my bench, duh!!

Actually, one thing they should also teach is that if stuck underneath
the bar, it's possible to roll it off. Thus, I was never really
"stuck" because I would always just carefully roll it from my torso to
my thighs, whereupon I would sit up and very carefully heave the
weight off like a much abbreviated deadlift. Of course, power racks
are still best, particularly since those safety pins can literally
catch a "catastrophic failure" where, say, a muscle is -- God forbid!
-- torn or something....

> Games can be fun and strategically challenging. Of course, there
> are boring and unnecessary games too.

I find the mating dance is boring and unnecessary. "The Iron Game,"
weightlifting, is very interesting, however. It looks like the
dumbest thing, to be sure, but it feels so good. It's a very strange
hobby, I must admit. Now if only I can find some girls with similar
interests! I was surprised to see in Milo that some of the female
strength athletes still looked female. =)

> We use cars for this. No need for a carpet.

Now you tell me! And to think I've been working on my bench press all
this time....
 >> Stay informed about: Building your own gym equipment 

On Jan 14, 12:24 pm, Prisoner at War <prisoner_at_....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> On Jan 13, 3:26 pm, Bartleby <arroy....TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > That's not how I think about it. I typically do multiple 5 rep sets.
> > I don't train to failure. I want to have as much gas as possible to
> > finish lifting relatively heavy weights with something left in the
> > tank.
> > That's intense enough for me.
>
> Yes, I often hear that -- "I want something left over." There doesn't
> seem to be any conclusive evidence that one way is better than
> another. I suppose it all has to do with one's personality. I'm an
> extremist -- "Type A personality" -- so I tend to go all the way.

I too don't know whether there's any conclusive evidence one way or
another.
I think, however, that with enough sets using relatively heavy weight,
you could satisfy any extremist tendencies you have - even if you
never go to failure.
>
> I'll tell you something weird about training to failure, though: I'm
> all "psyched" for hours afterwards, even though I'm also tired, such
> that I can't sleep for the next two to four hours after a workout!
> But a long hard jog has me sleeping almost as soon as I get home!

I'm "psyched" after a hard workout too. A long, hot shower afterwards
certainly helps.
A massage would be killer!
>
> > Not good at all. Still, I think that one can and should train one's
> > joints to support load.
>
> But it's not like they grow bigger or something, or become more
> efficient somehow, or that the "jelly" between joints grows thicker or
> anything. You're just going to wear them out!

I can't quote from anything to prove my point or to disprove yours.
However, I think that one can "train" the joints, tendons, ligaments
to
support load. No, the joints don't act like muscles in moving a
weight, but
that's not to say they can't be trained to become more efficient in
catching
and supporting load. Isn't this something that Olympic lifters train
to do?
>
> > As I said earlier, I don't know anything about the bench press but I
> > wonder whether heavy
> > benchers lock out when they accept the bar from the spotter and/or
> > before they return the
> > bar to the rack with a spotter's help.
>
> I don't ever lock out in that sense because, frankly, there's no need
> to. I really don't think you should "go there"...what's a joint but a
> hinge? A hinge is for movement, not for direct load-bearing...if you
> insist on pursuing such a crazy practice, though, be sure to report
> back when you develop joint problems!

Perhaps there's more to joints than you think. I can't say for sure,
but
I think joints are designed to work in conjunction with the rest of
our bodies
to ensure stabilization when supporting load.
>
> > It's said that the devil lies in the details. Maybe that's true
> > here. Do benchers who injure
> > themselves locking out train joint and ligament strength? Are there
> > other reasons why
> > inflammation may occur when benchers lock out? Are there form and
> > technique factors
> > at work?
>
> "Technique factors"?? Yeah, like using joints to bear loads! Wrong
> technique right there!

I'm not convinced, but I thank you for giving me the incentive to
research this question.
>
> Mind you, "locking out" in the sense I'm talking about isn't "locking
> out" in the colloquial sense of "straightening your arms"....

Please explain what you mean by "locking out."
>
> > Lighter helps but I think I need to do a lot of shoulder stabilization
> > work too
> > and figure out how to lift relatively heavy weights without subjecting
> > my shoulder
> > to excessive stress.
>
> Basically, anytime the joint is called up to shoulder (no pun
> intended) the weight, there's too much weight involved for the muscles
> involved.

I don't think this is what the joints do; they don't bring the weight
up so much as help to
stabilize or support it at the top. I find that getting a sec or so
of rest at the top gives me a little extra juice to get the next heavy
rep. Of course, I can't wait too long at the top because that too
would tire me out.
>
> > Yeah. Books and videos help, but there's no substitute for taking a
> > class and getting feedback
> > from a good instructor. Classes and individual training sessions can
> > both be very helpful.
> > Where do I sign up for a bench pressing class?
>
> Just get in touch with your local weightlifting club. Then you can
> see people who actually compete at the movement.

"Local weightlifting club"? I'll look into that. All I see around
me are gyms.
I never thought about going to PL federation websites to see whether
there are local weightlifting clubs.
>
> > I'm pretty good with inverted and weighted push-ups. Like you, I
> > originally thought
> > that training inverted, weighted pushups would help with my incline
> > bench press.
> > I haven't found that to be the case, but I will continue to
> > experiment. I've heard that a push-up
> > is basically a 2/3 BW bench press. So, if I'm 200 lbs, a pushup would
> > be like bench pressing
> > 133 lbs. The BP definitely feels harder.
>
> Well, yes, a bench press would be much harder -- that's the whole
> point in graduating from push-ups to bench presses, after all! Push-
> ups are mainly about "endurance" as opposed to "pure strength" the way
> a bench press is, but the motions involved are quite comparable.

I'm not talking about endurance. I find a single 133 lb BP more
difficult than a pushup. (Neither are at all hard; I'm talking about
subtle degrees of difference.)
The motions are similar, but not identical. A BP is done on one's
back and a pushup isn't.
Furthermore, a BP involves more technique than a pushup. When doing a
pushup, I don't have to worry about arc, pushing my heels into the
floor, arch, etc.


>
> > Don't want that. I think I get my best lift with elbows tucked and
> > forearms vertical.
>
> I've heard of people swearing by that technique, yes.
>
> > I seem to lose umph when my elbows are away from my body.
>
> Flared elbows recruit the anterior deltoids much more. How are your
> front delts?

My right shoulder bothers me when I go heavy. Otherwise, my shoulders
are pretty strong.
I did 135 lbs 5 reps on weighted triceps dips yesterday. My depth
isn't good but I go to where I feel a mild stretch in my shoulders so
I'm OK with it. My shoulder doesn't bother me when doing dips.
>
> > I think my
> > lats
> > are decently strong (but still need work like everything else). Do
> > you think that training
> > the outer pectoral muscles would help when using a wide-grip incline
> > bench press?
>
> Yes, that's the conventional wisdom, though Bob "The Chick" Cicherillo
> believes that a wide-grip trains inner pecs while a narrow grip trains
> outer pecs!

Interesting.
>
> > If so, how (other than wide-grip BP-ing) would I train these outer
> > pecs?
>
> Dumbbell flyes and such similar movements, like pec deck or cables.

Yeah, DB flyes are OK. Not sure about the productiveness of the pec
deck or cables - although I could be convinced.
>
> > Do they coo and say - in a sultry, husky, cougar way - "You've got a
> > lot of nerve."
>
> LOL! Nothing like a good mutual compression of nerving endings!
>
> > I don't know anything about dieting. If the guy lost 20 pounds of
> > overall fat and
> > didn't increase his lean muscle mass by 20 pounds and still pushed up
> > 405,
> > he would be lifting a greater percentage of his BW.
>
> Yeah, but I'm wondering whether that extra weight, IOW, hinders
> him...whether that fat would constitute what economists call an
> opportunity cost....

I can't see how fat per se would be all that helpful. Still. as
you've noticed, there are so many fat, strong people that I wouldn't
be at all surprised that fat can, in some cases and circumstances, be
a good thing. I don't think that severe calorie restriction to lose
a lot of fat would be helpful when strength needs to be demonstrated
>
> > I've never thought about my relationships with spotters in terms of
> > my relationships with women. I'm now thinking of only benching in
> > a power rack!
>
> LOL -- if you don't have a spotter, the power rack is the only way to
> go! (Actually, I'd sooner trust a power rack than any spotter where
> safety issues are concerned -- a spotter to me is only good for forced
> reps!) I'm surprised no one advises that, in all the articles I've
> read on the bench press. I myself was one of those lifters who would
> sometimes get stuck underneath the bar until I finally figured out on
> my own what a power rack was good for! I don't know why it took me
> six months to realize it, but I used to pass by the empty power rack
> all the time while wishing I had someone to spot me on my bench, duh!!

Do you now have a warm and fuzzy relationship with your power rack?
>
> Actually, one thing they should also teach is that if stuck underneath
> the bar, it's possible to roll it off. Thus, I was never really
> "stuck" because I would always just carefully roll it from my torso to
> my thighs, whereupon I would sit up and very carefully heave the
> weight off like a much abbreviated deadlift. Of course, power racks
> are still best, particularly since those safety pins can literally
> catch a "catastrophic failure" where, say, a muscle is -- God forbid!
> -- torn or something....

I've heard that experienced benchers might not attach collars to the
bar to make it easier to get rid of the weight if they're beginning to
get stuck. Of course, a lot of gyms insist on collars. I'll stick
with a power rack.
>
> > Games can be fun and strategically challenging. Of course, there
> > are boring and unnecessary games too.
>
> I find the mating dance is boring and unnecessary. "The Iron Game,"
> weightlifting, is very interesting, however. It looks like the
> dumbest thing, to be sure, but it feels so good. It's a very strange
> hobby, I must admit. Now if only I can find some girls with similar
> interests! I was surprised to see in Milo that some of the female
> strength athletes still looked female. =)

Don't all female athletes lift? Unlike you, I don't find lifting all
that fascinating. However, it is one area of my life where I can put
my all into something. It has other pluses, to be sure, but I can
think of more enjoyable forms of recreation.

> > We use cars for this. No need for a carpet.
>
> Now you tell me! And to think I've been working on my bench press all
> this time....

You mean to be able to roll women up more efficiently? Now you've got
me wondering what stories guys in carpet stores could tell!
 >> Stay informed about: Building your own gym equipment 

On Jan 14, 2:21 pm, Bartleby <arroy....TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I too don't know whether there's any conclusive evidence one way or
> another.
> I think, however, that with enough sets using relatively heavy weight,
> you could satisfy any extremist tendencies you have - even if you
> never go to failure.

I should note that conventional wisdom seems to be that going to
failure shouldn't be done all the time. I would do it more often if I
had a spotter who can help with forced reps. As it is right now, I
must admit that what really keeps me from training to failure all the
time is not wanting to look like a punk who can't lift something.
It's silly, but part of what makes working out in a gym so motivating
is the sense of "imagined competition"....

> I'm "psyched" after a hard workout too. A long, hot shower afterwards
> certainly helps.
> A massage would be killer!

Ah, yes, those breasts on one's back....

> I can't quote from anything to prove my point or to disprove yours.
> However, I think that one can "train" the joints, tendons, ligaments
> to
> support load.

Joints certainly support loads, but that's a consequence, a by-
product, of their primary functions. Again, it's like using an army
for a police force -- you could do it, but it's really not the right
tool for the job.

Now I've already quoted you Delavier; I'm sure you could find an
orthopedic surgeon to say the same. Just remember that, generally
speaking, when you break a body part, it's usually not as strong as
before.

> No, the joints don't act like muscles in moving a
> weight, but
> that's not to say they can't be trained to become more efficient in
> catching
> and supporting load. Isn't this something that Olympic lifters train
> to do?

I don't know whether they lock out in the sense you're thinking, but
what they do they do to demonstrate control of the weight. It doesn't
appear that they specifically target the joints for some particular
training or other!

> Perhaps there's more to joints than you think. I can't say for sure,
> but
> I think joints are designed to work in conjunction with the rest of
> our bodies
> to ensure stabilization when supporting load.

I'm not denying their support roles, but in trying to train them
specifically to bear loads, you are, in effect, trying to make a
muscle out of a joint. Just be careful, if you must go there....

> I'm not convinced, but I thank you for giving me the incentive to
> research this question.

Certainly do let me know if you find evidence that Delavier is wrong.
It's very interesting to compare notes on these things!

> Please explain what you mean by "locking out."

The same as you, evidently -- so totally straightening the arm that
the elbow joint becomes the locus of a "real" (that is, "heavy")
weight-bearing task. I only threw that disclaimer about definitions
and semantics just as a kind of reminder that we're not talking about
what some folks might refer to as locking out in a more casual sense.

> I don't think this is what the joints do; they don't bring the weight
> up so much as help to
> stabilize or support it at the top.

Joints don't "stabilize," muscles and tendons do. And they should
only "help support" loads, not "support" loads in the sense of a main
or sole source of support (which is the case with the kind of lock-out
we're discussing).

Where did you get your ideas about joints, anyway?

> I find that getting a sec or so
> of rest at the top gives me a little extra juice to get the next heavy
> rep. Of course, I can't wait too long at the top because that too
> would tire me out.

I often wonder about that! I use that time to take another breath,
but sometimes I wind up "resting" at the top of a rep and that's often
fatal -- I mean "fatal" in the sense of "fatal for the rep" and
failing at the rep. But I say I "wonder" about it because I do so
enjoy that very tiny bit of rest, I can also see how it helps me
psychologically. My first few reps, it helps to use that time to
psych myself up for the next one, as well as to, mainly, "take my
pulse," make sure I have no odd pains and so forth before continuing
with more, but the last few reps of a set I think I need to just push
through if I want to make the reps, even though it's during those last
few reps that I really most need to take stock of how my body's doing
and whether I might be in danger of pulling a muscle or something!

> "Local weightlifting club"? I'll look into that. All I see around
> me are gyms.
> I never thought about going to PL federation websites to see whether
> there are local weightlifting clubs.

Yeah, check it out. Some gyms are hard-core, and are likely whether
the local chapter of some weightlifting organization meets to work
out!

> I'm not talking about endurance.

Neither am I. I was saying that despite push-ups being more about
endurance, the motions involved are fairly comparable. Now, comparing
notes over usenet is fun, don't get me wrong, but maybe you're over-
analyzing some things? You do seem particularly concerned about some
matter which I find somewhat self-explanatory, while you are rather
convinced about other matters, like joints, which should probably
excite your worries more!

> I find a single 133 lb BP more
> difficult than a pushup. (Neither are at all hard; I'm talking about
> subtle degrees of difference.)
> The motions are similar, but not identical. A BP is done on one's
> back and a pushup isn't.

Yes, yes, but in the context of your question concerning forearm
placement and so forth, a push-up is most instructive. Do a push-up
with your elbows tucked into your sides, and compare that with a push-
up where your elbows are "flared": that's what you'd get on a flat
bench press as well!

> Furthermore, a BP involves more technique than a pushup. When doing a
> pushup, I don't have to worry about arc, pushing my heels into the
> floor, arch, etc.

Yes yes yes, but insofar as you also use your feet and legs, it's
rather similar in that sense: despite initial appearances, both
movements utilize the legs to a great degree. Indeed -- as you can
probably imagine -- I advise people to "master" the push-up first
before trying out the flat bench press. Very hard to truly hurt
yourself doing push-ups, whereas with a bench press it's much easier.
Mainly, though, the similarities outweigh the differences, and the
push-up is exemplary instruction for the flat bench!

> My right shoulder bothers me when I go heavy. Otherwise, my shoulders
> are pretty strong.
> I did 135 lbs 5 reps on weighted triceps dips yesterday. My depth
> isn't good but I go to where I feel a mild stretch in my shoulders so
> I'm OK with it. My shoulder doesn't bother me when doing dips.

Well, they're not "bearing" loads on the dip the way they do on the
inclined bench press, after all, especially if you don't perform your
dips with much of a "lean."

> Interesting.

Yep -- just goes to show, once again, that advice in this field is
usually just all over the place! But his is a minority opinion, for
what that's worth.

> Yeah, DB flyes are OK. Not sure about the productiveness of the pec
> deck or cables - although I could be convinced.

Pec decks and cables can be safer to perform, and are considered
isolating movements.

> I can't see how fat per se would be all that helpful. Still. as
> you've noticed, there are so many fat, strong people that I wouldn't
> be at all surprised that fat can, in some cases and circumstances, be
> a good thing. I don't think that severe calorie restriction to lose
> a lot of fat would be helpful when strength needs to be demonstrated

I wonder if there are any studies regarding this matter. I also like
to run, so that's another reason why fat is such an issue for me -- I
don't mind the weight of muscles slowing me down, but fat is nothing
but an unauthorized hitchhiker!

> Do you now have a warm and fuzzy relationship with your power rack?

I think I'll spend Valentine's with my power rack, yes! I'm going to
move up in weight at that date, too -- take things up another notch,
so to speak....

Hmmm, I wonder how many girls will be in the gym on that day...it's a
Thursday, there'll be a stationary bike spin class then, which is 90%
female....

> I've heard that experienced benchers might not attach collars to the
> bar to make it easier to get rid of the weight if they're beginning to
> get stuck. Of course, a lot of gyms insist on collars. I'll stick
> with a power rack.

Yes, they advise folks working out alone to not use collars for just
that reason, but I've never heard of a gym "insisting" on using a
collar!

> Don't all female athletes lift? Unlike you, I don't find lifting all
> that fascinating. However, it is one area of my life where I can put
> my all into something. It has other pluses, to be sure, but I can
> think of more enjoyable forms of recreation.

Oh, I love most physical activities, even golf! But the particular
appeal of lifting is, as you see for yourself, the sheer 100-percent-
iveness of it all...frankly, it reminds me of orgasm -- yes! Every
rep is like a mini-orgasm, LOL, where you're giving it all you've
got. Heck, I suppose that's what a woman's multiple orgasm feels like
-- a couple of sets of deadlifts! (I say "deadlifts" and not "bench
presses" 'cause, much as I love the bench press and it's my favorite
lift just 'cause I'm so good at it, the deadlift is still king for
that off-the-charts total-body effort and intensity....)

> You mean to be able to roll women up more efficiently? Now you've got
> me wondering what stories guys in carpet stores could tell!

LOL!! They probably tell jokes like, "what do Mexicans put under
their carpets? Underlay, underlay!"
 >> Stay informed about: Building your own gym equipment 

On Jan 15, 2:24 am, Prisoner at War <prisoner_at_... RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jan 14, 2:21 pm, Bartleby <arroy... RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I too don't know whether there's any conclusive evidence one way or
> > another.
> > I think, however, that with enough sets using relatively heavy weight,
> > you could satisfy any extremist tendencies you have - even if you
> > never go to failure.
>
> I should note that conventional wisdom seems to be that going to
> failure shouldn't be done all the time. I would do it more often if I
> had a spotter who can help with forced reps. As it is right now, I
> must admit that what really keeps me from training to failure all the
> time is not wanting to look like a punk who can't lift something.
> It's silly, but part of what makes working out in a gym so motivating
> is the sense of "imagined competition"....

I guess. Other people lifting heavy stuff is kind of motivating, but
I don't
see myself in competition with them. If I can't make my final rep
using good form,
I don't try to get it up any way I can just so other guys won't sneer
at me.
>
> > I'm "psyched" after a hard workout too. A long, hot shower afterwards
> > certainly helps.
> > A massage would be killer!
>
> Ah, yes, those breasts on one's back....

As long as the massage works the kinks out. . .
>
> > I can't quote from anything to prove my point or to disprove yours.
> > However, I think that one can "train" the joints, tendons, ligaments
> > to
> > support load.
>
> Joints certainly support loads, but that's a consequence, a by-
> product, of their primary functions. Again, it's like using an army
> for a police force -- you could do it, but it's really not the right
> tool for the job.
>
> Now I've already quoted you Delavier; I'm sure you could find an
> orthopedic surgeon to say the same. Just remember that, generally
> speaking, when you break a body part, it's usually not as strong as
> before.
>
> > No, the joints don't act like muscles in moving a
> > weight, but
> > that's not to say they can't be trained to become more efficient in
> > catching
> > and supporting load. Isn't this something that Olympic lifters train
> > to do?
>
> I don't know whether they lock out in the sense you're thinking, but
> what they do they do to demonstrate control of the weight. It doesn't
> appear that they specifically target the joints for some particular
> training or other!
>
> > Perhaps there's more to joints than you think. I can't say for sure,
> > but
> > I think joints are designed to work in conjunction with the rest of
> > our bodies
> > to ensure stabilization when supporting load.
>
> I'm not denying their support roles, but in trying to train them
> specifically to bear loads, you are, in effect, trying to make a
> muscle out of a joint. Just be careful, if you must go there....
>
> > I'm not convinced, but I thank you for giving me the incentive to
> > research this question.
>
> Certainly do let me know if you find evidence that Delavier is wrong.
> It's very interesting to compare notes on these things!

I am not saying or implying Delavier is wrong with respect to risking
injury by repeatedly locking out during bench pressing.
I've never flat benched and as of today I've only had three incline
bench pressing sessions. Heavy benching involves more weight
than shoulder pressing which is one place where I do frequently lock
out. Perhaps the weight difference is an issue. However, OL
lifters raise amazing heavy weight and they lock out. This helps to
keep the whole body rigid and stable. This makes me think that
there's
a training effect involved.

There are strength coaches who directly refer to the need to
strengthen the joints. They note that power in any movement is
limited to the strength of the weakest link in the movement chain.
This chain is formed by joints, ligaments, tendons, and muscles. They
also point out that most sports injuries occur to joints, ligaments,
and tendons - not to bones or muscle. These injuries are especially
likely to occur when the joints are in extension and rotation under
load. Therefore, they say that it is absolutely necessary to
strengthen the joints and connective tissues before attempting to make
big gains in muscle strength. Neglecting to do this greatly increases
the risk of injury when lifting or when playing sports.

These comments on the need to strengthen the joints and connective
tissues come from a book which does not mention locking out per se.
The focus was on training "rotational joint movements" under the
conditions of "full extension and heavy load." Sounds very similar to
what I mean by locking out. For example,
a biceps curl done with hands supinated and locked in one position by
the bar will build bigger biceps, but they may not build biceps that
function in sports movements. Delavier notes that benchers often
experience overuse injuries related to excessive training with long
sets and that locking out may, over time, lead to elbow pain,
inflammation, and possibly even crippling intra-articular
calcifications. Who knows whether these injuries would have occurred
if these benchers had deliberately tried to strengthen all the links
in the power chain.



>
> > Please explain what you mean by "locking out."
>
> The same as you, evidently -- so totally straightening the arm that
> the elbow joint becomes the locus of a "real" (that is, "heavy")
> weight-bearing task. I only threw that disclaimer about definitions
> and semantics just as a kind of a reminder that we're not talking about
> what some folks might refer to as locking out in a more casual sense.
>
> > I don't think this is what the joints do; they don't bring the weight
> > up so much as help to
> > stabilize or support it at the top.
>
> Joints don't "stabilize," muscles and tendons do. And they should
> only "help support" loads, not "support" loads in the sense of a main
> or sole source of support (which is the case with the kind of lock-out
> we're discussing).

Everything - joints, ligaments, tendons, and muscles - should be
trained to work together
>
> Where did you get your ideas about joints, anyway?

A couple of books...which made sense to me.
>
> > I find that getting a sec or so
> > of rest at the top gives me a little extra juice to get the next heavy
> > rep. Of course, I can't wait too long at the top because that too
> > would tire me out.
>
> I often wonder about that! I use that time to take another breath,
> but sometimes I wind up "resting" at the top of a rep and that's often
> fatal -- I mean "fatal" in the sense of "fatal for the rep" and
> failing at the rep. But I say I "wonder" about it because I do so
> enjoy that very tiny bit of rest, I can also see how it helps me
> psychologically. My first few reps, it helps to use that time to
> psych myself up for the next one, as well as to, mainly, "take my
> pulse," make sure I have no odd pains and so forth before continuing
> with more, but the last few reps of a set I think I need to just push
> through if I want to make the reps, even though it's during those last
> few reps that I really most need to take stock of how my body's doing
> and whether I might be in danger of pulling a muscle or something!

I want to have enough gas in the tank to be able to make all 5 reps.
Sometimes, I do an extra rep just to be sure. I want to do all 5
reps
using good form. I don't want to complete a rep any possible way.
>
> > "Local weightlifting club"? I'll look into that. All I see around
> > me are gyms.
> > I never thought about going to PL federation websites to see whether
> > there are local weightlifting clubs.
>
> Yeah, check it out. Some gyms are hard-core, and are likely whether
> the local chapter of some weightlifting organization meets to work
> out!
>
> > I'm not talking about endurance.
>
> Neither am I. I was saying that despite push-ups being more about
> endurance, the motions involved are fairly comparable. Now, comparing
> notes over usenet is fun, don't get me wrong, but maybe you're over-
> analyzing some things? You do seem particularly concerned about some
> matter which I find somewhat self-explanatory, while you are rather
> convinced about other matters, like joints, which should probably
> excite your worries more!

I don't think I'm over-analyzing stuff. I just want to make sure I
have the
basics covered.
>
> > I find a single 133 lb BP more
> > difficult than a pushup. (Neither are at all hard; I'm talking about
> > subtle degrees of difference.)
> > The motions are similar, but not identical. A BP is done on one's
> > back and a pushup isn't.
>
> Yes, yes, but in the context of your question concerning forearm
> placement and so forth, a push-up is most instructive. Do a push-up
> with your elbows tucked into your sides, and compare that with a push-
> up where your elbows are "flared": that's what you'd get on a flat
> bench press as well!

I do pushups in various ways. Feet on a table, wearing a weight vest,
using straps which work like rings, using rubber bands, someone on my
upper back, close, wide, and other variants. I still find benching
more
challenging when the amount of weight is identical. I think it's a
technique
and practice thing.
>
> > Furthermore, a BP involves more technique than a pushup. When doing a
> > pushup, I don't have to worry about arc, pushing my heels into the
> > floor, arch, etc.
>
> Yes yes yes, but insofar as you also use your feet and legs, it's
> rather similar in that sense: despite initial appearances, both
> movements utilize the legs to a great degree. Indeed -- as you can
> probably imagine -- I advise people to "master" the push-up first
> before trying out the flat bench press. Very hard to truly hurt
> yourself doing push-ups, whereas with a bench press it's much easier.
> Mainly, though, the similarities outweigh the differences, and the
> push-up is exemplary instruction for the flat bench!

I agree, but it's not enough instruction - at least not for me
>
> > My right shoulder bothers me when I go heavy. Otherwise, my shoulders
> > are pretty strong.
> > I did 135 lbs 5 reps on weighted triceps dips yesterday. My depth
> > isn't good but I go to where I feel a mild stretch in my shoulders so
> > I'm OK with it. My shoulder doesn't bother me when doing dips.
>
> Well, they're not "bearing" loads on the dip the way they do on the
> inclined bench press, after all, especially if you don't perform your
> dips with much of a "lean."

True, leaning on the dips to focus more on the chest can be somewhat
irritating.
>
> > Interesting.
>
> Yep -- just goes to show, once again, that advice in this field is
> usually just all over the place! But his is a minority opinion, for
> what that's worth.
>
> > Yeah, DB flyes are OK. Not sure about the productiveness of the pec
> > deck or cables - although I could be convinced.
>
> Pec decks and cables can be safer to perform, and are considered
> isolating movements.

Do good benchers use pec decs and cables to improve their bench
performance?
>
> > I can't see how fat per se would be all that helpful. Still. as
> > you've noticed, there are so many fat, strong people that I wouldn't
> > be at all surprised that fat can, in some cases and circumstances, be
> > a good thing. I don't think that severe calorie restriction to lose
> > a lot of fat would be helpful when strength needs to be demonstrated
>
> I wonder if there are any studies regarding this matter. I also like
> to run, so that's another reason why fat is such an issue for me -- I
> don't mind the weight of muscles slowing me down, but fat is nothing
> but an unauthorized hitchhiker!

I'm not a runner so I can't contribute much here. Are you a sprinter
or a long-distance runner?
In either case, I can understand why fat would be unwelcome. To
return to your original question,
I can only speculate that a large-muscled person may have a visible
layer of fat. A bigger muscle is
potentially a stronger muscle. Someone with large muscles who
strength trains and also has a visible layer of fat
is going to be a strong dude. Does having a big belly assist in
certain lifts or in certain spoorts or occupations?
I don't know. I suppose I'd have to ask elite powerlifters and OL
lifters and NFL linemen about this. On the other hand,
I don't think I'm going to find many fat sprinters or marathoners or
pro tennis or basketball players.
>
> > Do you now have a warm and fuzzy relationship with your power rack?
>
> I think I'll spend Valentine's with my power rack, yes! I'm going to
> move up in weight at that date, too -- take things up another notch,
> so to speak....

I'm happy to hear you're developing a more intense relationship with
your bar belle.
>
> Hmmm, I wonder how many girls will be in the gym on that day...it's a
> Thursday, there'll be a stationary bike spin class then, which is 90%
> female....
>
> > I've heard that experienced benchers might not attach collars to the
> > bar to make it easier to get rid of the weight if they're beginning to
> > get stuck. Of course, a lot of gyms insist on collars. I'll stick
> > with a power rack.
>
> Yes, they advise folks working out alone to not use collars for just
> that reason, but I've never heard of a gym "insisting" on using a
> collar!

I remember being at a gym with a friend who loves to bench. He loaded
the
plates and was about to unrack the bar when the gym trainer told him
he had to
use collars. Now, this wasn't your typical gym trainer. He's a guy
with very
impressive lifting and strength coaching credentials.

>
> > Don't all female athletes lift? Unlike you, I don't find lifting all
> > that fascinating. However, it is one area of my life where I can put
> > my all into something. It has other pluses, to be sure, but I can
> > think of more enjoyable forms of recreation.
>
> Oh, I love most physical activities, even golf! But the particular
> appeal of lifting is, as you see for yourself, the sheer 100-percent-
> iveness of it all...frankly, it reminds me of orgasm -- yes! Every
> rep is like a mini-orgasm, LOL, where you're giving it all you've
> got. Heck, I suppose that's what a woman's multiple orgasm feels like
> -- a couple of sets of deadlifts! (I say "deadlifts" and not "bench
> presses" 'cause, much as I love the bench press and it's my favorite
> lift just 'cause I'm so good at it, the deadlift is still king for
> that off-the-charts total-body effort and intensity....)

Please don't tell me that! But when you find an attractive woman
who
feels the same way as you do about DL-ing, marry her!
>
> > You mean to be able to roll women up more efficiently? Now you've got
> > me wondering what stories guys in carpet stores could