Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats?

Dnia 2007-12-06 Steve Freides napisa³(a):
> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:fj6vr8$asl$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
>>
>> Actually, I don't think that I need that. I do selected few exercises
>> which take care of flexibility needs all by themselves. Stretching is
>> even more boring than running so I'd have to be quite motivated to do
>> it
>> on a regular basis. Anyway, I could probably still put my leg on top
>> of
>> my head without any flexibility training ever. I can pull this lotos
>> position quite easily, and I actually type sitting cross legged just
>> now.
>>
>> Why would I need more flexibility work?
>
> Allow me, please, to run a few concepts by you that you may not have
> considered.
>
> Effective flexibility training is, for the most part, learning to relax
> muscle tension, not stretch anything.
>
> I will repeat that one - learn to relax your muscles, repattern your
> neural software, if you will.

Learning to relax? Range of motion isn't knowledge. Mobility training
may be knowledge, but mobility itself isn't. I, for example, have
"tight" quads, but it doesn't mean that I can't relax them. If I don't
use them, they can be as relaxed as you like. No problem.

> A weak muscle will not relax,

Really? Oh my! I know a woman with all muscles weak, and she has
pretty good mobility all around. How come?

> so that approach advocated by Pavel,
> Thomas Kurz, and others recommends you develop strength in the ranges of
> motion in which you wish to be able to move. That means flexibility
> training is strength training, not stretching.

Do they say that yoga recently stopped working after five thousands
years of success?

> This increasingly popular method goes by many names, but the simplest to
> understand is contract-relax,

Damn, the progress in those areas is so fast. One day it will be faster
than in computers! We will be able to get stronger according to Moore's
law.

> and in general terms, is practiced as
> follows - you get near the limits of your range of motion, you tense the
> muscles you're trying to learn to relax isometrically for a few seconds,
> maybe as long as half a minute, then you relax them. In their relaxed
> state, they should allow you to move a little further into your desired
> range of motion, so you do. A few of these and you hopefully increase
> your "flexibility" within the space of a few minutes.

There is absolutely nothing new to this. It may work well, I'm not
saying it doesn't, but static stretching isn't much different. Don't
you think that if static stretching never worked a ballet dancers
would stop doing it by now?

> Bryce Lane's booklet explains all this well, as do the other sources I
> mentioned earlier in this thread.
>
> Do you _need_ to be more flexible? No, but do you _need_ to be
> stronger, or _need_ to be in good condition at all? No.

It's not an answer. Restricted range of motion is often a symptom of
some underlying problem or can lead to a problem, but it's not a problem
in itself.

> Most people seem to have a goal along the lines of "get stronger and a
> bigger." My goal is to master my body and to master muscle tension, to
> increase both my ability to contract my muscles and my ability to relax
> them. Both are not only valuable skills, they often work to help each
> other.
>
> I am convinced that most static stretching is still not stretching
> anything,

Stupid ballet dancers. They waste all this time doing something which
obviously doesn't work. I wonder what professional contortionists
do? They surely must do a lot of active reactive ROM neural software
repatterning to do this.
http://www.broughtonapartments.co.uk/basement pictures/slides/contortionist.jpg
I bet that this girl must also have some superhuman strength to be able
to relax so much.

> but merely waiting for muscle tension to relax -
> contract-relax protocol is much more effective overall, and safer as
> well.

It's nothing especially novel, if you skip the hogwash about how lack of
range of motion results from inability to relax a muscle. I'm not
saying it doesn't work, though.

> Last but not least, one can become too flexible, and I am not advocating
> increasing flexibility ad infinitum. I believe a reasonable goal is to
> return to the body of our youth, one which operated with restrictions
> only imposed by anatomy, not by atrophy.
>
> Just my opinion - hope to have given you some new ideas on this subject,
> that is all.

Sure. I could write this post starting every paragraph with "I agree",
because I do for the most part. Still, I just don't like when some
wording chosen to vaguely describe what you are supposed to do becomes a
"knowledge" just because the approach happens to work. Plenty of
approaches work and most of them don't assume that powerlifters have
restricted shoulder mobility due to weak pectorals.

--
Andrzej Rosa
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

"Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fj8trl$5dn$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
> Dnia 2007-12-06 Steve Freides napisa³(a):
>> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:fj6vr8$asl$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
>>>
>>> Actually, I don't think that I need that. I do selected few
>>> exercises
>>> which take care of flexibility needs all by themselves. Stretching
>>> is
>>> even more boring than running so I'd have to be quite motivated to
>>> do
>>> it
>>> on a regular basis. Anyway, I could probably still put my leg on
>>> top
>>> of
>>> my head without any flexibility training ever. I can pull this
>>> lotos
>>> position quite easily, and I actually type sitting cross legged just
>>> now.
>>>
>>> Why would I need more flexibility work?
>>
>> Allow me, please, to run a few concepts by you that you may not have
>> considered.
>>
>> Effective flexibility training is, for the most part, learning to
>> relax
>> muscle tension, not stretch anything.
>>
>> I will repeat that one - learn to relax your muscles, repattern your
>> neural software, if you will.
>
> Learning to relax? Range of motion isn't knowledge. Mobility
> training
> may be knowledge, but mobility itself isn't. I, for example, have
> "tight" quads, but it doesn't mean that I can't relax them. If I
> don't
> use them, they can be as relaxed as you like. No problem.
>
>> A weak muscle will not relax,
>
> Really? Oh my! I know a woman with all muscles weak, and she has
> pretty good mobility all around. How come?
>
>> so that approach advocated by Pavel,
>> Thomas Kurz, and others recommends you develop strength in the ranges
>> of
>> motion in which you wish to be able to move. That means flexibility
>> training is strength training, not stretching.
>
> Do they say that yoga recently stopped working after five thousands
> years of success?
>
>> This increasingly popular method goes by many names, but the simplest
>> to
>> understand is contract-relax,
>
> Damn, the progress in those areas is so fast. One day it will be
> faster
> than in computers! We will be able to get stronger according to
> Moore's
> law.
>
>> and in general terms, is practiced as
>> follows - you get near the limits of your range of motion, you tense
>> the
>> muscles you're trying to learn to relax isometrically for a few
>> seconds,
>> maybe as long as half a minute, then you relax them. In their
>> relaxed
>> state, they should allow you to move a little further into your
>> desired
>> range of motion, so you do. A few of these and you hopefully
>> increase
>> your "flexibility" within the space of a few minutes.
>
> There is absolutely nothing new to this. It may work well, I'm not
> saying it doesn't, but static stretching isn't much different. Don't
> you think that if static stretching never worked a ballet dancers
> would stop doing it by now?
>
>> Bryce Lane's booklet explains all this well, as do the other sources
>> I
>> mentioned earlier in this thread.
>>
>> Do you _need_ to be more flexible? No, but do you _need_ to be
>> stronger, or _need_ to be in good condition at all? No.
>
> It's not an answer. Restricted range of motion is often a symptom of
> some underlying problem or can lead to a problem, but it's not a
> problem
> in itself.
>
>> Most people seem to have a goal along the lines of "get stronger and
>> a
>> bigger." My goal is to master my body and to master muscle tension,
>> to
>> increase both my ability to contract my muscles and my ability to
>> relax
>> them. Both are not only valuable skills, they often work to help
>> each
>> other.
>>
>> I am convinced that most static stretching is still not stretching
>> anything,
>
> Stupid ballet dancers. They waste all this time doing something which
> obviously doesn't work. I wonder what professional contortionists
> do? They surely must do a lot of active reactive ROM neural software
> repatterning to do this.
> http://www.broughtonapartments.co.uk/basement
> pictures/slides/contortionist.jpg
> I bet that this girl must also have some superhuman strength to be
> able
> to relax so much.
>
>> but merely waiting for muscle tension to relax -
>> contract-relax protocol is much more effective overall, and safer as
>> well.
>
> It's nothing especially novel, if you skip the hogwash about how lack
> of
> range of motion results from inability to relax a muscle. I'm not
> saying it doesn't work, though.
>
>> Last but not least, one can become too flexible, and I am not
>> advocating
>> increasing flexibility ad infinitum. I believe a reasonable goal is
>> to
>> return to the body of our youth, one which operated with restrictions
>> only imposed by anatomy, not by atrophy.
>>
>> Just my opinion - hope to have given you some new ideas on this
>> subject,
>> that is all.
>
> Sure. I could write this post starting every paragraph with "I
> agree",
> because I do for the most part. Still, I just don't like when some
> wording chosen to vaguely describe what you are supposed to do becomes
> a
> "knowledge" just because the approach happens to work. Plenty of
> approaches work and most of them don't assume that powerlifters have
> restricted shoulder mobility due to weak pectorals.

I'm not going to reply point-by-point because I don't think that will
further this discussion. A few general things to keep in mind, however,
are worth adding.

Dr. Stuart McGill, who is a well-known expert on low back disorders,
uses the term "self-selecting" to explain things like the position
professional cyclists ride in. He says that such a position is not good
for the average back, and that cyclists who rise to the top of the
profession are, among other things, people whose backs can function for
prolonged periods of time in a position that would bother most people,
no matter what training approach they took.

I say the same thing to you about ballet dancers, yoga, and other things
you've mentioned. There are many ways that have worked for some people,
but that does not make them the best way or the only way. I am trying
to give you alternatives to what you've done, that is all, but the
alternatives I have proposed are, to my mind, better than the
traditional approaches you've described and for obvious reasons -
someone has taken the time to figure out a better way to stretch. And I
do not mean to say that ballet and yoga are bad, just that, like many
traditional approaches, they contain both good and not so good things.
The same could be said of many traditional martial arts. For me, at
least, the only traditional physical discipline with which I have yet to
find some fault is internal-based martial arts - that may be because I
haven't studied or practiced any of them extensively, but if I had to
pick one discipline to which I had to be completely devoted to today, it
would be some form of qigong, tai chi, bagua, etc.

Or maybe you would like your barber to apply leeches to you when you
don't feel well. A link on that subject:

http://www.wordinfo.info/words/index/info/view_unit/3364

Second, when you say that range of motion isn't knowledge, you are dead
wrong. Your body _knows_ what you are capable of doing. It is body
knowledge, if you will, not brain knowledge. I suspect that by now
you've seen pictures of me in various splits, but when I started, I
couldn't touch my ankles, let alone my toes, let alone get anywhere near
the things I can do now. Link to one such photo:

http://www.dragondoor.com/cgi-bin/thumbs.pl?dir=workshops/aug06&displa...mage&im

or

http://tinyurl.com/23zu4b

Lastly, there has been research done lately that compares flexibility
and range of motion with injury, and it has been proven that people who
are able to demonstrate good, unrestricted basic movement patterns are
less likely to become injured when practicing their chosen sport than
those who cannot. A web search on "functional movement screening" will
get you to some reading on this subject, and there are other approaches
as well, e.g., Z-Health, a system created by a chiropractor about which
I am now learning. The ability to perform an overhead squat with a
stick is one such basic movement pattern everyone ought to be able to
do.

I started working on my flexibility in my mid-40's. Anyone can make
great progress with acquiring strength in the extremes of their ranges
of motion, and/or improve their flexibility, if they are willing to
train smart and train hard. Whether or not you wish to do that is, of
course, completely up to you.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

In article <5rqk12F161brrU1 DeleteThis @mid.individual.net>,
"Steve Freides" <steve DeleteThis @fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>
> Lastly, there has been research done lately that compares flexibility
> and range of motion with injury, and it has been proven that people who
> are able to demonstrate good, unrestricted basic movement patterns are
> less likely to become injured when practicing their chosen sport than
> those who cannot. A web search on "functional movement screening" will
> get you to some reading on this subject, and there are other approaches
> as well, e.g., Z-Health, a system created by a chiropractor about which
> I am now learning. The ability to perform an overhead squat with a
> stick is one such basic movement pattern everyone ought to be able to
> do.

Dude, I did the search and found no research, just a pile of web-sites
that are selling things. And furthermore, basic movement patterns is a
term well-known to kinesiologists and generally refers to the body in
locomotion, landings, rotation, hang, etc. - not ROM.

Do a search on "basic movement patterns" - and use the quotes.

Now, your chiro may be using in a sense specific to his/her desire to
teach what they consider essential ROM, but that is not really what most
of the scientific research is addressing when they talk about basic
movement patterns.

Other than that, I tend to agree with your points in that motor patterns
become ingrained and are specific to activity. As a ex-powerlifter I
have the opposite problem of cyclists and speed skaters - I am virtually
unable to round my back. The 'cat' yoga stretch simply can't be done.
This may not seem like a bad adaptation as there are few activities
where a rounded back is really required, but it can cause problems. I'm
actually doing some work to overcome it.

--
Keith
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

"Hobbes" <khobman800.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:khobman800-1CB47D.10482306122007@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> In article <5rqk12F161brrU1.RemoveThis@mid.individual.net>,
> "Steve Freides" <steve.RemoveThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>>
>> Lastly, there has been research done lately that compares flexibility
>> and range of motion with injury, and it has been proven that people
>> who
>> are able to demonstrate good, unrestricted basic movement patterns
>> are
>> less likely to become injured when practicing their chosen sport than
>> those who cannot. A web search on "functional movement screening"
>> will
>> get you to some reading on this subject, and there are other
>> approaches
>> as well, e.g., Z-Health, a system created by a chiropractor about
>> which
>> I am now learning. The ability to perform an overhead squat with a
>> stick is one such basic movement pattern everyone ought to be able to
>> do.
>
> Dude, I did the search and found no research, just a pile of web-sites
> that are selling things. And furthermore, basic movement patterns is a
> term well-known to kinesiologists and generally refers to the body in
> locomotion, landings, rotation, hang, etc. - not ROM.
>
> Do a search on "basic movement patterns" - and use the quotes.

I learned about this from a half-day presentation, not from any web
search. I trust the source, Brett Jones, who has co-authored several
things with Gray Cook on functional movement screening and remedial
therapies. As to how the terms are used by kinesiologists, I defer to
you. I suspect that the studies Brett mentioned are included in
"Athletic Body in Balance," which is their basic book/DVD. See
http://www.functionalmovement.com for more, click on Products, Books to
find this one.

> Now, your chiro may be using in a sense specific to his/her desire to
> teach what they consider essential ROM, but that is not really what
> most
> of the scientific research is addressing when they talk about basic
> movement patterns.
>
> Other than that, I tend to agree with your points in that motor
> patterns
> become ingrained and are specific to activity. As a ex-powerlifter I
> have the opposite problem of cyclists and speed skaters - I am
> virtually
> unable to round my back. The 'cat' yoga stretch simply can't be done.
> This may not seem like a bad adaptation as there are few activities
> where a rounded back is really required, but it can cause problems.
> I'm
> actually doing some work to overcome it.

Sounds right to me, Keith. Stuart McGill observes that most people are
best served by mobility in the hips and shoulders and stability in the
lumbar spine, but as I know you know, some mobility in the lumbar spine
is good and Olympic lifters seem to be what I'd call near-perfect in
that regard - stable, strong, yet mobile as well, since you have to be
able to do some things in a deep squat snatch or clean that you just
don't have to do when PL'ing.

FWIW, for me, some of these issues can be nicely hit with the
face-the-wall squat. Once you get to the point where you can perform
the movement to a decent depth, you start bringing the feet squarer and
closer together, and it seems to teach extending the spine in a good
way.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com


>
> --
> Keith
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

Dnia 2007-12-06 Steve Freides napisa³(a):
> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:fj8trl$5dn$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
>> Dnia 2007-12-06 Steve Freides napisa³(a):
> I'm not going to reply point-by-point because I don't think that will
> further this discussion. A few general things to keep in mind, however,
> are worth adding.
>
> Dr. Stuart McGill, who is a well-known expert on low back disorders,
> uses the term "self-selecting" to explain things like the position
> professional cyclists ride in. He says that such a position is not good
> for the average back, and that cyclists who rise to the top of the
> profession are, among other things, people whose backs can function for
> prolonged periods of time in a position that would bother most people,
> no matter what training approach they took.
>
> I say the same thing to you about ballet dancers, yoga, and other things
> you've mentioned.

Are you seriously trying to say, that ballet dancers do not know what
they are doing? Because if not, I see no point in all of the above.

> There are many ways that have worked for some people,
> but that does not make them the best way or the only way. I am trying
> to give you alternatives to what you've done, that is all, but the
> alternatives I have proposed are, to my mind, better than the
> traditional approaches you've described and for obvious reasons -
> someone has taken the time to figure out a better way to stretch. And I
> do not mean to say that ballet and yoga are bad, just that, like many
> traditional approaches, they contain both good and not so good things.
> The same could be said of many traditional martial arts. For me, at
> least, the only traditional physical discipline with which I have yet to
> find some fault is internal-based martial arts - that may be because I
> haven't studied or practiced any of them extensively, but if I had to
> pick one discipline to which I had to be completely devoted to today, it
> would be some form of qigong, tai chi, bagua, etc.

Don't touch that stuff. Normal people with critical minds can lose
their grasp on reality in that world. It's definitely not for someone
like you.

[...]
> Lastly, there has been research done lately that compares flexibility
> and range of motion with injury, and it has been proven that people who
> are able to demonstrate good, unrestricted basic movement patterns are
> less likely to become injured when practicing their chosen sport than
> those who cannot.

Tell it to javelin throwers. I mean, DZ should explain why positive
correlation means relatively little. It will look something like
F(u)./*-G(A)!(B) and with some Greek letters in between too.

> A web search on "functional movement screening" will
> get you to some reading on this subject, and there are other approaches
> as well, e.g., Z-Health, a system created by a chiropractor about which
> I am now learning.

Stay miles away from qigong! I'll beg if I must.

> The ability to perform an overhead squat with a
> stick is one such basic movement pattern everyone ought to be able to
> do.

Or what? My shoulders felt perfect without any stretching or overhead
squatting until I continued lifting for quite some time. Only then I
developed a problem.

> I started working on my flexibility in my mid-40's. Anyone can make
> great progress with acquiring strength in the extremes of their ranges
> of motion, and/or improve their flexibility, if they are willing to
> train smart and train hard. Whether or not you wish to do that is, of
> course, completely up to you.

I already do what I want to do and I acquire what is there to acquire
for me. I could get more flexible if I needed to, but luckily it doesn't
look like I need to. So why bother?

--
Andrzej Rosa
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

"Andrzej Rosa" <bakters RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fj9sac$her$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
> Dnia 2007-12-06 Steve Freides napisa³(a):
>> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:fj8trl$5dn$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
>>> Dnia 2007-12-06 Steve Freides napisa³(a):
>> I'm not going to reply point-by-point because I don't think that will
>> further this discussion. A few general things to keep in mind,
>> however,
>> are worth adding.
>>
>> Dr. Stuart McGill, who is a well-known expert on low back disorders,
>> uses the term "self-selecting" to explain things like the position
>> professional cyclists ride in. He says that such a position is not
>> good
>> for the average back, and that cyclists who rise to the top of the
>> profession are, among other things, people whose backs can function
>> for
>> prolonged periods of time in a position that would bother most
>> people,
>> no matter what training approach they took.
>>
>> I say the same thing to you about ballet dancers, yoga, and other
>> things
>> you've mentioned.
>
> Are you seriously trying to say, that ballet dancers do not know what
> they are doing? Because if not, I see no point in all of the above.

Yes, except that I said it better than that.

>> There are many ways that have worked for some people,
>> but that does not make them the best way or the only way. I am
>> trying
>> to give you alternatives to what you've done, that is all, but the
>> alternatives I have proposed are, to my mind, better than the
>> traditional approaches you've described and for obvious reasons -
>> someone has taken the time to figure out a better way to stretch.
>> And I
>> do not mean to say that ballet and yoga are bad, just that, like many
>> traditional approaches, they contain both good and not so good
>> things.
>> The same could be said of many traditional martial arts. For me, at
>> least, the only traditional physical discipline with which I have yet
>> to
>> find some fault is internal-based martial arts - that may be because
>> I
>> haven't studied or practiced any of them extensively, but if I had to
>> pick one discipline to which I had to be completely devoted to today,
>> it
>> would be some form of qigong, tai chi, bagua, etc.
>
> Don't touch that stuff. Normal people with critical minds can lose
> their grasp on reality in that world. It's definitely not for someone
> like you.
>
> [...]
>> Lastly, there has been research done lately that compares flexibility
>> and range of motion with injury, and it has been proven that people
>> who
>> are able to demonstrate good, unrestricted basic movement patterns
>> are
>> less likely to become injured when practicing their chosen sport than
>> those who cannot.
>
> Tell it to javelin throwers. I mean, DZ should explain why positive
> correlation means relatively little. It will look something like
> F(u)./*-G(A)!(B) and with some Greek letters in between too.
>
>> A web search on "functional movement screening" will
>> get you to some reading on this subject, and there are other
>> approaches
>> as well, e.g., Z-Health, a system created by a chiropractor about
>> which
>> I am now learning.
>
> Stay miles away from qigong! I'll beg if I must.

I practice qigong every day, albeit it only briefly. I begin my
exercise day with several qigong movements then move into more vigorous
joint health work. It's my understanding that there are plenty of more
vigorous qigong exercises I could do, I just don't know them.

>> The ability to perform an overhead squat with a
>> stick is one such basic movement pattern everyone ought to be able to
>> do.
>
> Or what? My shoulders felt perfect without any stretching or overhead
> squatting until I continued lifting for quite some time. Only then I
> developed a problem.
>
>> I started working on my flexibility in my mid-40's. Anyone can make
>> great progress with acquiring strength in the extremes of their
>> ranges
>> of motion, and/or improve their flexibility, if they are willing to
>> train smart and train hard. Whether or not you wish to do that is,
>> of
>> course, completely up to you.
>
> I already do what I want to do and I acquire what is there to acquire
> for me. I could get more flexible if I needed to, but luckily it
> doesn't
> look like I need to. So why bother?

The theory is that, if you can't pass a functional movement screen with
relatively decent scores that are matched from side to side, then sooner
or later you will develop an injury if you push yourself at your chosen
sport. That's the theory. For you, if you're happy, I'm happy.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

Dnia 2007-12-07 Steve Freides napisa³(a):
> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
[...]
>> Are you seriously trying to say, that ballet dancers do not know what
>> they are doing? Because if not, I see no point in all of the above.
>
> Yes, except that I said it better than that.

And you think that they could do better than that?
http://www.filecabi.net/video/ballerinas-make-perfect-girlfriends.html

You did plenty of overhead kettlebell lifting? Don't you remember a
time when you woke up on the floor with some unexplained headache? You
wouldn't notice a bulge among all your hair, but it would explain at
least part of your convictions.

[...]
>> Stay miles away from qigong! I'll beg if I must.
>
> I practice qigong every day, albeit it only briefly. I begin my
> exercise day with several qigong movements then move into more vigorous
> joint health work. It's my understanding that there are plenty of more
> vigorous qigong exercises I could do, I just don't know them.

Oh my! We are doomed! Cohen, give him something which will knock him
out fast, before he does any more damage!

>> I already do what I want to do and I acquire what is there to acquire
>> for me. I could get more flexible if I needed to, but luckily it
>> doesn't
>> look like I need to. So why bother?
>
> The theory is that, if you can't pass a functional movement screen with
> relatively decent scores that are matched from side to side, then sooner
> or later you will develop an injury if you push yourself at your chosen
> sport. That's the theory.

It's fairly sound, if you use relevant screening tests. If you don't,
there is still a chance that one will stumble upon what's important,
which will tip the correlation toward positive values. But it doesn't
change the fact, that limited range of motion isn't a problem until it
becomes a problem.

> For you, if you're happy, I'm happy.

You are probably deep in the la-la land, due to your quigong practice.


--
Andrzej Rosa
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

Andrzej Rosa <bakters.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> writes:

> Dnia 2007-12-06 Steve Freides napisa³(a):
>> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:fj8trl$5dn$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
>>> Dnia 2007-12-06 Steve Freides napisa³(a):
>> I'm not going to reply point-by-point because I don't think that will
>> further this discussion. A few general things to keep in mind, however,
>> are worth adding.
>>
>> Dr. Stuart McGill, who is a well-known expert on low back disorders,
>> uses the term "self-selecting" to explain things like the position
>> professional cyclists ride in. He says that such a position is not good
>> for the average back, and that cyclists who rise to the top of the
>> profession are, among other things, people whose backs can function for
>> prolonged periods of time in a position that would bother most people,
>> no matter what training approach they took.
>>
>> I say the same thing to you about ballet dancers, yoga, and other things
>> you've mentioned.
>
> Are you seriously trying to say, that ballet dancers do not know what
> they are doing? Because if not, I see no point in all of the above.

I'm not an expert on ballet, but I take ballet classes regularly, and
in my opinion self-selection is a real possibility

I also question the assumption that ballet dancers rely on static
stretching. In my experience, a typical 90-minute class includes
maybe a minute and a half of static stretching on the bar. The rest
of the bar work involves practicing controlled movement through a
gradually increasing range of motion: in other words, dynamic
stretching. Which is not to say that you don't see people doing
static stretches before or after class, but it doesn't seem to be part
of the curriculum.

--
Jim Janney
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

I wrote:

>> I mention all this as a lead in to say that I've also been using
>> light,
>> one-kettlebell OHS' to try and "repattern" things for myself, and I'm
>> liking the results thus far. In terms of what's required as far as
>> skill, flexibility, etc., I consider the entry point for this move to
>> be
>> even higher than the barbell OHS, but I am feeling it working things
>> up
>> and down my spine, especially in the area of my bad disc, and I get
>> the
>> feeling that there is something of a connection between the bad disc
>> and
>> the less-than-wonderfully-mobile shoulder on the same side, so I'm
>> thinking all this is good. The interesting thing about the kb OHS is
>> that, because the weight sits slightly low and on the back of your
>> arm,
>> you need slightly less ROM at the top and the hand is slightly
>> forward.
>> The lower cg makes it more friendly than a dumbbell version of the
>> same
>> thing would be, IMHO.
>>
>> Just another side to the picture for anyone reading along.

Mr. Hobman replied:

> So you are saying that a db OH would be a natural progression in terms
> of ROM training from a kb OH squat?
>
> Makes sense to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnHwwd6ysbc

That's me doing 5 reps a side with a 16 kg kettlebell. The hand on the
front of the shoulder thing before I start pressing is just my reminder
to myself to keep my shoulder in a good place - I like Pavel's idea of
trying to lengthen your collar bone, basically the same thing as the
yoga concept of keeping the shoulder away from the ear.

Still a work in progress but I'm getting there. Left (second) side
looks better to me in terms of upper back, right (first) side is the
problem, rehab/repatterning is going nicely - I do one-kb strict presses
after these, have been keeping the weight light, using weight that's
about a 10-12 rep max for triples.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

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 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

Dnia 2007-12-09 DZ napisa³(a):
> Andrzej Rosa <bakters RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Tell it to javelin throwers. I mean, DZ should explain why positive
>> correlation means relatively little. It will look something like
>> F(u)./*-G(A)!(B) and with some Greek letters in between too.
>
> I'm listening to some Szymanowski's romances right now
> (http://www.amazon.com/Szymanowski-Songs-Opp-31-49/dp/B000SQKZUG)
> and I'm finding a lot of correlation with Russian.
>
> Szerszeniu, szerszeniu, [Hornet, (although a bumblebee in Russian)]
> Nie sidaj mi na ram-eniu! [Don't sit on my arm!]
>
> If you say "ram" like a Polish hillbilly, you get the English word
> "arm".

Did he specify if a hornet sat on the arm with restricted range of
motion? Being stung by a hornet qualifies as an injury, so there could
be some preference.

--
Andrzej Rosa
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

On Dec 3, 2:02 pm, Dave <D... RemoveThis @Freenet.com> wrote:
> Prisoner at War wrote:
> > On Dec 3, 8:41 am, Dave <D... RemoveThis @Freenet.com> wrote:
> >> I find that I don't have enough shoulder flexibility to hold
> >> the bar securely with both hands when attempting to do squats. Would
> >> shoulder stretching exercises help with this prob? Any suggestions
> >> appreciated.
>
> >> Thanks.
>
> > Well, this is something new...I'd never considered the role of the
> > shoulders in squats...I do try to lift the bar with my arms and
> > shoulders when at a sticking point (essentially, I try to lift the bar
> > off my shoulders with my arms in order to help my legs straighten
> > up!), but I've never really had the shoulders do much work, for all my
> > effort, so I'm surprised shoulder flexibility should have anything to
> > do with the squat....
>
> > You'll want to look into some basic yoga for serious stretching
> > exercises...but I suspect you may be doing something wrong (or
> > something physiologically is wrong) if the shoulders play that great a
> > role in your squats...basically, they're just there...the bar lies on
> > them, that's all...hasn't anything to do with how well they can
> > flex....
>
> Yes, I seem to have worked on my upper back and shoulders while
> neglecting flexibility. I can (with some difficulty) hold a body bar
> behind my neck if my hands are close together. The problem arises when I
> try to slide my hands along the bar away from my neck!!

I have a similar problem. It's not that the shoulder are doing any
"work"; with shoulder inflexibilities, its a lot harder to even get
your shoulders back far enough to hold the bar correctly. Here are
some good shoulder stretches that should help.

http://www.exrx.net/Stretches/PectoralisMinor/Wall.html
http://www.exrx.net/Stretches/PectoralisMinor/Doorway.html
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

In article <5rildiF14fbrvU1.DeleteThis@mid.individual.net>,
Steve Freides <steve.DeleteThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:

>For such people, I recommend a standing, one-armed overhead press with a
>solid pause at the top. A kettlebell works somewhat better than a
>dumbbell for this because the weight's center of mass is lower and
>behind the arm, allowing you to lean forward slightly at the top in a
>way that is less risky than doing the same thing with a dumbbell - but
>it's fine to work the one-armed overhead press with a dumbbell for this
>purpose as well.

Why not a barbell? (OK, they have to be strong enough to lift the
empty bar.)

Surprisingly, I found I could lift more in a one-arm overhead press
with a barbell than with a dumbbell.

Seth
--