Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats?

"Hobbes" <khobman800 RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:khobman800-585589.11004205122007@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> In article <5ro2knF13m05bU1 RemoveThis @mid.individual.net>,
> "Steve Freides" <steve RemoveThis @fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>
>> "Hobbes" <khobman800 RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:khobman800-B726F1.10110205122007@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
>> > In article <5rnvonF15r0n7U1 RemoveThis @mid.individual.net>,
>> > "Steve Freides" <steve RemoveThis @fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:fj4n7p$91l$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
>> >> > Dnia 2007-12-03 Hobbes napisa³(a):
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I agree with some points and disagree with others. The OH squat
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> best prescription. Depth in the OH squat is limited and the
>> >> >> goal
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> work into a deep squat. Limits are:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 1. If the lower back rounds - stop just above where it rounds.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 2. If the bar or broomstick moves forward.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Iniitally start with a very wide grip on the broomstick. The
>> >> >> problem
>> >> >> with the OH squat - and where Steve is correct IMO, is that it
>> >> >> is
>> >> >> better
>> >> >> to have supervision or an idea what you are doing.
>> >> >
>> >> > If I took this approach I'd be still doing half squats with a
>> >> > very
>> >> > wide
>> >> > grip on a broomstick (without some weight on the bar there is no
>> >> > force
>> >> > which can "stretch" the joint). My arms simply do not bend this
>> >> > way
>> >> > (I'm
>> >> > not very inflexible all around, I just don't bend this way
>> >> > somehow),
>> >> > and
>> >> > it would take ages of boredom to get anywhere.
>> >>
>> >> That's no excuse, Comrade.
>> >>
>> >> > Approach recommended by
>> >> > Steve actually worked for me,
>> >>
>> >> What approach was that? (I don't remember.)
>> >>
>> >> > although once I started on OHS's I still
>> >> > managed to injure my groin. If we lack flexibility in one
>> >> > joint,
>> >> > we
>> >> > tend
>> >> > to overcompensate with other joints, which at times means
>> >> > strained
>> >> > tendons
>> >> > and some such.
>> >>
>> >> Time to work on your flexibility, then.
>> >> http://www.kbnj.com/ris.htm
>> >> or,
>> >> if you can figure out his stuff (I can't), http://www.stadion.com,
>> >> or
>> >> Bryce Lane's flexibility booklet.
>> >>
>> >> -S-
>> >> http://www.kbnj.com
>> >
>> > Plus, if the shoulders are up to it add weight to the bar on the OH
>> > squat! Simple.
>>
>> I've found that even a little extra weight makes a difference - when
>> you're ready for it, you want at least enough weight that you stand a
>> chance of losing the bar forwards or backwards if you don't keep it
>> centered, not an issue with a stick or a very light weight. For me,
>> an
>> empty Oly bar is enough, and anywhere up to about 1/2 or 2/3
>> bodyweight
>> is more than enough to make the point. I like doing them with a 25
>> lb.
>> bar I have for high reps as a warmup or joint health/ROM exercise.
>
> I still use a broomstick, but when I do I normally will do shoulder
> dislocates from a full squat position. I don't do reps over 6 in the
> actual OH squat and generally stick with 135 or 185 at the most in the
> OH squat. Which reflects my power snatch suckage...

My power snatch suckage sucks compared to yours, bro.

I've been doing 20 reps with a stick (my proprioception is good enough
to keep it where it needs to be) or 12 reps w/ a 25 lb. bar.

A relevant aside here - my right shoulder has never worked as well as my
left, and after deciding in about July to try "true" GS lifting, which
mean high reps and 6-minute-plus sets, I managed to give myself my first
real injury, nothing horrible, I don't think, but whatever my shoulder
didn't do well, it now does even worse in terms of tightness, lack of
ROM, etc. Needless to say, I hope, I've gone back to my previous
lifting program for now and maybe for good.

I mention all this as a lead in to say that I've also been using light,
one-kettlebell OHS' to try and "repattern" things for myself, and I'm
liking the results thus far. In terms of what's required as far as
skill, flexibility, etc., I consider the entry point for this move to be
even higher than the barbell OHS, but I am feeling it working things up
and down my spine, especially in the area of my bad disc, and I get the
feeling that there is something of a connection between the bad disc and
the less-than-wonderfully-mobile shoulder on the same side, so I'm
thinking all this is good. The interesting thing about the kb OHS is
that, because the weight sits slightly low and on the back of your arm,
you need slightly less ROM at the top and the hand is slightly forward.
The lower cg makes it more friendly than a dumbbell version of the same
thing would be, IMHO.

Just another side to the picture for anyone reading along.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

>
> --
> Keith
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

In article <5ro6h4F15nufhU1.DeleteThis@mid.individual.net>,
"Steve Freides" <steve.DeleteThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:

> "Hobbes" <khobman800.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:khobman800-585589.11004205122007@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> > In article <5ro2knF13m05bU1.DeleteThis@mid.individual.net>,
> > "Steve Freides" <steve.DeleteThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "Hobbes" <khobman800.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> news:khobman800-B726F1.10110205122007@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> >> > In article <5rnvonF15r0n7U1.DeleteThis@mid.individual.net>,
> >> > "Steve Freides" <steve.DeleteThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> >> news:fj4n7p$91l$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
> >> >> > Dnia 2007-12-03 Hobbes napisa³(a):
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I agree with some points and disagree with others. The OH squat
> >> >> >> is
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> best prescription. Depth in the OH squat is limited and the
> >> >> >> goal
> >> >> >> is
> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> work into a deep squat. Limits are:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> 1. If the lower back rounds - stop just above where it rounds.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> 2. If the bar or broomstick moves forward.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Iniitally start with a very wide grip on the broomstick. The
> >> >> >> problem
> >> >> >> with the OH squat - and where Steve is correct IMO, is that it
> >> >> >> is
> >> >> >> better
> >> >> >> to have supervision or an idea what you are doing.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > If I took this approach I'd be still doing half squats with a
> >> >> > very
> >> >> > wide
> >> >> > grip on a broomstick (without some weight on the bar there is no
> >> >> > force
> >> >> > which can "stretch" the joint). My arms simply do not bend this
> >> >> > way
> >> >> > (I'm
> >> >> > not very inflexible all around, I just don't bend this way
> >> >> > somehow),
> >> >> > and
> >> >> > it would take ages of boredom to get anywhere.
> >> >>
> >> >> That's no excuse, Comrade.
> >> >>
> >> >> > Approach recommended by
> >> >> > Steve actually worked for me,
> >> >>
> >> >> What approach was that? (I don't remember.)
> >> >>
> >> >> > although once I started on OHS's I still
> >> >> > managed to injure my groin. If we lack flexibility in one
> >> >> > joint,
> >> >> > we
> >> >> > tend
> >> >> > to overcompensate with other joints, which at times means
> >> >> > strained
> >> >> > tendons
> >> >> > and some such.
> >> >>
> >> >> Time to work on your flexibility, then.
> >> >> http://www.kbnj.com/ris.htm
> >> >> or,
> >> >> if you can figure out his stuff (I can't), http://www.stadion.com,
> >> >> or
> >> >> Bryce Lane's flexibility booklet.
> >> >>
> >> >> -S-
> >> >> http://www.kbnj.com
> >> >
> >> > Plus, if the shoulders are up to it add weight to the bar on the OH
> >> > squat! Simple.
> >>
> >> I've found that even a little extra weight makes a difference - when
> >> you're ready for it, you want at least enough weight that you stand a
> >> chance of losing the bar forwards or backwards if you don't keep it
> >> centered, not an issue with a stick or a very light weight. For me,
> >> an
> >> empty Oly bar is enough, and anywhere up to about 1/2 or 2/3
> >> bodyweight
> >> is more than enough to make the point. I like doing them with a 25
> >> lb.
> >> bar I have for high reps as a warmup or joint health/ROM exercise.
> >
> > I still use a broomstick, but when I do I normally will do shoulder
> > dislocates from a full squat position. I don't do reps over 6 in the
> > actual OH squat and generally stick with 135 or 185 at the most in the
> > OH squat. Which reflects my power snatch suckage...
>
> My power snatch suckage sucks compared to yours, bro.
>
> I've been doing 20 reps with a stick (my proprioception is good enough
> to keep it where it needs to be) or 12 reps w/ a 25 lb. bar.
>
> A relevant aside here - my right shoulder has never worked as well as my
> left, and after deciding in about July to try "true" GS lifting, which
> mean high reps and 6-minute-plus sets, I managed to give myself my first
> real injury, nothing horrible, I don't think, but whatever my shoulder
> didn't do well, it now does even worse in terms of tightness, lack of
> ROM, etc. Needless to say, I hope, I've gone back to my previous
> lifting program for now and maybe for good.
>
> I mention all this as a lead in to say that I've also been using light,
> one-kettlebell OHS' to try and "repattern" things for myself, and I'm
> liking the results thus far. In terms of what's required as far as
> skill, flexibility, etc., I consider the entry point for this move to be
> even higher than the barbell OHS, but I am feeling it working things up
> and down my spine, especially in the area of my bad disc, and I get the
> feeling that there is something of a connection between the bad disc and
> the less-than-wonderfully-mobile shoulder on the same side, so I'm
> thinking all this is good. The interesting thing about the kb OHS is
> that, because the weight sits slightly low and on the back of your arm,
> you need slightly less ROM at the top and the hand is slightly forward.
> The lower cg makes it more friendly than a dumbbell version of the same
> thing would be, IMHO.
>
> Just another side to the picture for anyone reading along.
>
So you are saying that a db OH would be a natural progression in terms
of ROM training from a kb OH squat?

Makes sense to me.

Also I suspect you have shoulder capsule inflammation and going back to
basics makes perfectly good sense. The OHS would allow you to train
relevent strength and motor patterns without further inflaming the
capsule and allow healing. Also makes perfect sense to me. I'm very much
a neo-Bernsteinist in terms of freezing out degrees of freedom to deal
with a motor issue.

--
Keith
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

"Hobbes" <khobman800.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:khobman800-C20F3B.12552805122007@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> In article <5ro6h4F15nufhU1.RemoveThis@mid.individual.net>,
> "Steve Freides" <steve.RemoveThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>
>> "Hobbes" <khobman800.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:khobman800-585589.11004205122007@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
>> > In article <5ro2knF13m05bU1.RemoveThis@mid.individual.net>,
>> > "Steve Freides" <steve.RemoveThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Hobbes" <khobman800.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:khobman800-B726F1.10110205122007@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
>> >> > In article <5rnvonF15r0n7U1.RemoveThis@mid.individual.net>,
>> >> > "Steve Freides" <steve.RemoveThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >> >> news:fj4n7p$91l$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
>> >> >> > Dnia 2007-12-03 Hobbes napisa³(a):
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I agree with some points and disagree with others. The OH
>> >> >> >> squat
>> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> best prescription. Depth in the OH squat is limited and the
>> >> >> >> goal
>> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> to
>> >> >> >> work into a deep squat. Limits are:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> 1. If the lower back rounds - stop just above where it
>> >> >> >> rounds.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> 2. If the bar or broomstick moves forward.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Iniitally start with a very wide grip on the broomstick. The
>> >> >> >> problem
>> >> >> >> with the OH squat - and where Steve is correct IMO, is that
>> >> >> >> it
>> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> >> better
>> >> >> >> to have supervision or an idea what you are doing.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > If I took this approach I'd be still doing half squats with a
>> >> >> > very
>> >> >> > wide
>> >> >> > grip on a broomstick (without some weight on the bar there is
>> >> >> > no
>> >> >> > force
>> >> >> > which can "stretch" the joint). My arms simply do not bend
>> >> >> > this
>> >> >> > way
>> >> >> > (I'm
>> >> >> > not very inflexible all around, I just don't bend this way
>> >> >> > somehow),
>> >> >> > and
>> >> >> > it would take ages of boredom to get anywhere.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> That's no excuse, Comrade.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Approach recommended by
>> >> >> > Steve actually worked for me,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What approach was that? (I don't remember.)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > although once I started on OHS's I still
>> >> >> > managed to injure my groin. If we lack flexibility in one
>> >> >> > joint,
>> >> >> > we
>> >> >> > tend
>> >> >> > to overcompensate with other joints, which at times means
>> >> >> > strained
>> >> >> > tendons
>> >> >> > and some such.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Time to work on your flexibility, then.
>> >> >> http://www.kbnj.com/ris.htm
>> >> >> or,
>> >> >> if you can figure out his stuff (I can't),
>> >> >> http://www.stadion.com,
>> >> >> or
>> >> >> Bryce Lane's flexibility booklet.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> -S-
>> >> >> http://www.kbnj.com
>> >> >
>> >> > Plus, if the shoulders are up to it add weight to the bar on the
>> >> > OH
>> >> > squat! Simple.
>> >>
>> >> I've found that even a little extra weight makes a difference -
>> >> when
>> >> you're ready for it, you want at least enough weight that you
>> >> stand a
>> >> chance of losing the bar forwards or backwards if you don't keep
>> >> it
>> >> centered, not an issue with a stick or a very light weight. For
>> >> me,
>> >> an
>> >> empty Oly bar is enough, and anywhere up to about 1/2 or 2/3
>> >> bodyweight
>> >> is more than enough to make the point. I like doing them with a
>> >> 25
>> >> lb.
>> >> bar I have for high reps as a warmup or joint health/ROM exercise.
>> >
>> > I still use a broomstick, but when I do I normally will do shoulder
>> > dislocates from a full squat position. I don't do reps over 6 in
>> > the
>> > actual OH squat and generally stick with 135 or 185 at the most in
>> > the
>> > OH squat. Which reflects my power snatch suckage...
>>
>> My power snatch suckage sucks compared to yours, bro.
>>
>> I've been doing 20 reps with a stick (my proprioception is good
>> enough
>> to keep it where it needs to be) or 12 reps w/ a 25 lb. bar.
>>
>> A relevant aside here - my right shoulder has never worked as well as
>> my
>> left, and after deciding in about July to try "true" GS lifting,
>> which
>> mean high reps and 6-minute-plus sets, I managed to give myself my
>> first
>> real injury, nothing horrible, I don't think, but whatever my
>> shoulder
>> didn't do well, it now does even worse in terms of tightness, lack of
>> ROM, etc. Needless to say, I hope, I've gone back to my previous
>> lifting program for now and maybe for good.
>>
>> I mention all this as a lead in to say that I've also been using
>> light,
>> one-kettlebell OHS' to try and "repattern" things for myself, and I'm
>> liking the results thus far. In terms of what's required as far as
>> skill, flexibility, etc., I consider the entry point for this move to
>> be
>> even higher than the barbell OHS, but I am feeling it working things
>> up
>> and down my spine, especially in the area of my bad disc, and I get
>> the
>> feeling that there is something of a connection between the bad disc
>> and
>> the less-than-wonderfully-mobile shoulder on the same side, so I'm
>> thinking all this is good. The interesting thing about the kb OHS is
>> that, because the weight sits slightly low and on the back of your
>> arm,
>> you need slightly less ROM at the top and the hand is slightly
>> forward.
>> The lower cg makes it more friendly than a dumbbell version of the
>> same
>> thing would be, IMHO.
>>
>> Just another side to the picture for anyone reading along.
>>
> So you are saying that a db OH would be a natural progression in terms
> of ROM training from a kb OH squat?
>
> Makes sense to me.

The biomechanics here are too complex for me to say. For one thing, the
lower cg of doing it with a kettlebell, combined with the fact that the
weight is on the back of the forearm and therefore you are pushing
forward somewhere to balance, makes me wonder if a db version would just
be harder or it would require something different in shoulder stability
at the top. It would be interesting to have some sort of kb-like device
that was, e.g., a heavy ring through which you put your hand that had a
strap and you held the strap, basically a kb's distance from the end of
the lever in terms of cg but still balanced equally fore and aft like a
dumbbell.

> Also I suspect you have shoulder capsule inflammation and going back
> to
> basics makes perfectly good sense. The OHS would allow you to train
> relevent strength and motor patterns without further inflaming the
> capsule and allow healing. Also makes perfect sense to me. I'm very
> much
> a neo-Bernsteinist in terms of freezing out degrees of freedom to deal
> with a motor issue.

Please explain your last sentence more. I don't know who Bernstein is
and I don't know what you mean by freezing out degrees of freedom.

BTW, I picked up a Z-Health DVD and book, the recommended starter called
R Phase. Seems like good stuff to me so far. I've been introduced to
it a little in person by people who've gone through their training and
have always liked how they go about it. The main criticism of it seems
to be that the concepts are hard to communicate and even harder for
people to learn on their own, but I'm not put off by that. It is a
program focused on rehab/prehab and restoring full, natural ROM
patterns.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com


> --
> Keith
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

In article <5robr9F15q3daU1.RemoveThis@mid.individual.net>,
"Steve Freides" <steve.RemoveThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:

> "Hobbes" <khobman800.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:khobman800-C20F3B.12552805122007@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> > In article <5ro6h4F15nufhU1.RemoveThis@mid.individual.net>,
> > "Steve Freides" <steve.RemoveThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "Hobbes" <khobman800.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> news:khobman800-585589.11004205122007@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> >> > In article <5ro2knF13m05bU1.RemoveThis@mid.individual.net>,
> >> > "Steve Freides" <steve.RemoveThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> "Hobbes" <khobman800.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> >> news:khobman800-B726F1.10110205122007@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> >> >> > In article <5rnvonF15r0n7U1.RemoveThis@mid.individual.net>,
> >> >> > "Steve Freides" <steve.RemoveThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> >> >> news:fj4n7p$91l$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
> >> >> >> > Dnia 2007-12-03 Hobbes napisa³(a):
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> I agree with some points and disagree with others. The OH
> >> >> >> >> squat
> >> >> >> >> is
> >> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> >> best prescription. Depth in the OH squat is limited and the
> >> >> >> >> goal
> >> >> >> >> is
> >> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> >> work into a deep squat. Limits are:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> 1. If the lower back rounds - stop just above where it
> >> >> >> >> rounds.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> 2. If the bar or broomstick moves forward.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Iniitally start with a very wide grip on the broomstick. The
> >> >> >> >> problem
> >> >> >> >> with the OH squat - and where Steve is correct IMO, is that
> >> >> >> >> it
> >> >> >> >> is
> >> >> >> >> better
> >> >> >> >> to have supervision or an idea what you are doing.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > If I took this approach I'd be still doing half squats with a
> >> >> >> > very
> >> >> >> > wide
> >> >> >> > grip on a broomstick (without some weight on the bar there is
> >> >> >> > no
> >> >> >> > force
> >> >> >> > which can "stretch" the joint). My arms simply do not bend
> >> >> >> > this
> >> >> >> > way
> >> >> >> > (I'm
> >> >> >> > not very inflexible all around, I just don't bend this way
> >> >> >> > somehow),
> >> >> >> > and
> >> >> >> > it would take ages of boredom to get anywhere.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> That's no excuse, Comrade.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > Approach recommended by
> >> >> >> > Steve actually worked for me,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> What approach was that? (I don't remember.)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > although once I started on OHS's I still
> >> >> >> > managed to injure my groin. If we lack flexibility in one
> >> >> >> > joint,
> >> >> >> > we
> >> >> >> > tend
> >> >> >> > to overcompensate with other joints, which at times means
> >> >> >> > strained
> >> >> >> > tendons
> >> >> >> > and some such.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Time to work on your flexibility, then.
> >> >> >> http://www.kbnj.com/ris.htm
> >> >> >> or,
> >> >> >> if you can figure out his stuff (I can't),
> >> >> >> http://www.stadion.com,
> >> >> >> or
> >> >> >> Bryce Lane's flexibility booklet.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> -S-
> >> >> >> http://www.kbnj.com
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Plus, if the shoulders are up to it add weight to the bar on the
> >> >> > OH
> >> >> > squat! Simple.
> >> >>
> >> >> I've found that even a little extra weight makes a difference -
> >> >> when
> >> >> you're ready for it, you want at least enough weight that you
> >> >> stand a
> >> >> chance of losing the bar forwards or backwards if you don't keep
> >> >> it
> >> >> centered, not an issue with a stick or a very light weight. For
> >> >> me,
> >> >> an
> >> >> empty Oly bar is enough, and anywhere up to about 1/2 or 2/3
> >> >> bodyweight
> >> >> is more than enough to make the point. I like doing them with a
> >> >> 25
> >> >> lb.
> >> >> bar I have for high reps as a warmup or joint health/ROM exercise.
> >> >
> >> > I still use a broomstick, but when I do I normally will do shoulder
> >> > dislocates from a full squat position. I don't do reps over 6 in
> >> > the
> >> > actual OH squat and generally stick with 135 or 185 at the most in
> >> > the
> >> > OH squat. Which reflects my power snatch suckage...
> >>
> >> My power snatch suckage sucks compared to yours, bro.
> >>
> >> I've been doing 20 reps with a stick (my proprioception is good
> >> enough
> >> to keep it where it needs to be) or 12 reps w/ a 25 lb. bar.
> >>
> >> A relevant aside here - my right shoulder has never worked as well as
> >> my
> >> left, and after deciding in about July to try "true" GS lifting,
> >> which
> >> mean high reps and 6-minute-plus sets, I managed to give myself my
> >> first
> >> real injury, nothing horrible, I don't think, but whatever my
> >> shoulder
> >> didn't do well, it now does even worse in terms of tightness, lack of
> >> ROM, etc. Needless to say, I hope, I've gone back to my previous
> >> lifting program for now and maybe for good.
> >>
> >> I mention all this as a lead in to say that I've also been using
> >> light,
> >> one-kettlebell OHS' to try and "repattern" things for myself, and I'm
> >> liking the results thus far. In terms of what's required as far as
> >> skill, flexibility, etc., I consider the entry point for this move to
> >> be
> >> even higher than the barbell OHS, but I am feeling it working things
> >> up
> >> and down my spine, especially in the area of my bad disc, and I get
> >> the
> >> feeling that there is something of a connection between the bad disc
> >> and
> >> the less-than-wonderfully-mobile shoulder on the same side, so I'm
> >> thinking all this is good. The interesting thing about the kb OHS is
> >> that, because the weight sits slightly low and on the back of your
> >> arm,
> >> you need slightly less ROM at the top and the hand is slightly
> >> forward.
> >> The lower cg makes it more friendly than a dumbbell version of the
> >> same
> >> thing would be, IMHO.
> >>
> >> Just another side to the picture for anyone reading along.
> >>
> > So you are saying that a db OH would be a natural progression in terms
> > of ROM training from a kb OH squat?
> >
> > Makes sense to me.
>
> The biomechanics here are too complex for me to say. For one thing, the
> lower cg of doing it with a kettlebell, combined with the fact that the
> weight is on the back of the forearm and therefore you are pushing
> forward somewhere to balance, makes me wonder if a db version would just
> be harder or it would require something different in shoulder stability
> at the top. It would be interesting to have some sort of kb-like device
> that was, e.g., a heavy ring through which you put your hand that had a
> strap and you held the strap, basically a kb's distance from the end of
> the lever in terms of cg but still balanced equally fore and aft like a
> dumbbell.
>
> > Also I suspect you have shoulder capsule inflammation and going back
> > to
> > basics makes perfectly good sense. The OHS would allow you to train
> > relevent strength and motor patterns without further inflaming the
> > capsule and allow healing. Also makes perfect sense to me. I'm very
> > much
> > a neo-Bernsteinist in terms of freezing out degrees of freedom to deal
> > with a motor issue.
>
> Please explain your last sentence more. I don't know who Bernstein is
> and I don't know what you mean by freezing out degrees of freedom.
>
> BTW, I picked up a Z-Health DVD and book, the recommended starter called
> R Phase. Seems like good stuff to me so far. I've been introduced to
> it a little in person by people who've gone through their training and
> have always liked how they go about it. The main criticism of it seems
> to be that the concepts are hard to communicate and even harder for
> people to learn on their own, but I'm not put off by that. It is a
> program focused on rehab/prehab and restoring full, natural ROM
> patterns.

Bernstein was a Russian expert on learning theory - basically almost all
the Soviet training progressions are built off his ideas from the
1920's. Brilliant dude. Him and Henry at Berkeley were probably the two
most influential people in the world on motor learning.

Bernstein believed we learn by 'freezing' relevent motor patterns and as
we progress we add in degress of freedom. An expert actually is able to
use all relevent degrees of freedom and may also take advantage of
envirnomental inputs. Very relevent yet, IMO, especially where improper
movement patterns are learned. In contrast Schema Theory was adapted by
Schmidt and believes we learn by getting an idea of the movement to
develop both a recall schema and a template schema based on how the
movement feels.

Both are relevent, IMO, motor learning.

--
Keith
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

Dnia 2007-12-05 Steve Freides napisa³(a):
>>>
>>> Time to work on your flexibility, then. http://www.kbnj.com/ris.htm
>>> or,
>>> if you can figure out his stuff (I can't), http://www.stadion.com, or
>>> Bryce Lane's flexibility booklet.
>>>
>>> -S-
>>> http://www.kbnj.com
>>
>> Plus, if the shoulders are up to it add weight to the bar on the OH
>> squat! Simple.
>
> I've found that even a little extra weight makes a difference - when
> you're ready for it, you want at least enough weight that you stand a
> chance of losing the bar forwards or backwards if you don't keep it
> centered, not an issue with a stick or a very light weight.

That's why a broomstick OHS doesn't work wonders. One needs flexibility
to overhead squat broomsticks, but it's quite hard to get it that way
(IMHO).

[...]
--
Andrzej Rosa
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

In article <fj6v79$6jc$1@inews.gazeta.pl>,
Andrzej Rosa <bakters.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Dnia 2007-12-05 Steve Freides napisa³(a):
> >>>
> >>> Time to work on your flexibility, then. http://www.kbnj.com/ris.htm
> >>> or,
> >>> if you can figure out his stuff (I can't), http://www.stadion.com, or
> >>> Bryce Lane's flexibility booklet.
> >>>
> >>> -S-
> >>> http://www.kbnj.com
> >>
> >> Plus, if the shoulders are up to it add weight to the bar on the OH
> >> squat! Simple.
> >
> > I've found that even a little extra weight makes a difference - when
> > you're ready for it, you want at least enough weight that you stand a
> > chance of losing the bar forwards or backwards if you don't keep it
> > centered, not an issue with a stick or a very light weight.
>
> That's why a broomstick OHS doesn't work wonders. One needs flexibility
> to overhead squat broomsticks, but it's quite hard to get it that way
> (IMHO).
>
Shane Hammon would disagree. Started with a broomstick after squatting
over 1,000 lbs in competition and now snatches over 400.

--
Keith
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

Dnia 2007-12-05 Steve Freides napisa³(a):
>>
>> If I took this approach I'd be still doing half squats with a very
>> wide
>> grip on a broomstick (without some weight on the bar there is no force
>> which can "stretch" the joint). My arms simply do not bend this way
>> (I'm
>> not very inflexible all around, I just don't bend this way somehow),
>> and
>> it would take ages of boredom to get anywhere.
>
> That's no excuse, Comrade.

Neither is it a particularly good approach.

>> Approach recommended by
>> Steve actually worked for me,
>
> What approach was that? (I don't remember.)

We wrote basically the same thing, but Hobbes put more emphasize on
overhead squats. If you don't care checking what you wrote I see no
point in rehashing it.

>> although once I started on OHS's I still
>> managed to injure my groin. If we lack flexibility in one joint, we
>> tend
>> to overcompensate with other joints, which at times means strained
>> tendons
>> and some such.
>
> Time to work on your flexibility, then. http://www.kbnj.com/ris.htm or,
> if you can figure out his stuff (I can't), http://www.stadion.com, or
> Bryce Lane's flexibility booklet.

Actually, I don't think that I need that. I do selected few exercises
which take care of flexibility needs all by themselves. Stretching is
even more boring than running so I'd have to be quite motivated to do it
on a regular basis. Anyway, I could probably still put my leg on top of
my head without any flexibility training ever. I can pull this lotos
position quite easily, and I actually type sitting cross legged just now.

Why would I need more flexibility work?

--
Andrzej Rosa
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

Dnia 2007-12-05 Hobbes napisa³(a):
> In article <fj6v79$6jc$1@inews.gazeta.pl>,
> Andrzej Rosa <bakters RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Dnia 2007-12-05 Steve Freides napisa³(a):
>> >>>
>> >>> Time to work on your flexibility, then. http://www.kbnj.com/ris.htm
>> >>> or,
>> >>> if you can figure out his stuff (I can't), http://www.stadion.com, or
>> >>> Bryce Lane's flexibility booklet.
>> >>>
>> >>> -S-
>> >>> http://www.kbnj.com
>> >>
>> >> Plus, if the shoulders are up to it add weight to the bar on the OH
>> >> squat! Simple.
>> >
>> > I've found that even a little extra weight makes a difference - when
>> > you're ready for it, you want at least enough weight that you stand a
>> > chance of losing the bar forwards or backwards if you don't keep it
>> > centered, not an issue with a stick or a very light weight.
>>
>> That's why a broomstick OHS doesn't work wonders. One needs flexibility
>> to overhead squat broomsticks, but it's quite hard to get it that way
>> (IMHO).
>>
> Shane Hammon would disagree. Started with a broomstick after squatting
> over 1,000 lbs in competition and now snatches over 400.

I somehow doubt that he gained the required range of motion by "just"
doing broomstick OHS.

--
Andrzej Rosa
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

In article <fj72at$kdi$1@inews.gazeta.pl>,
Andrzej Rosa <bakters.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Dnia 2007-12-05 Hobbes napisa³(a):
> > In article <fj6v79$6jc$1@inews.gazeta.pl>,
> > Andrzej Rosa <bakters.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Dnia 2007-12-05 Steve Freides napisa³(a):
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Time to work on your flexibility, then. http://www.kbnj.com/ris.htm
> >> >>> or,
> >> >>> if you can figure out his stuff (I can't), http://www.stadion.com, or
> >> >>> Bryce Lane's flexibility booklet.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> -S-
> >> >>> http://www.kbnj.com
> >> >>
> >> >> Plus, if the shoulders are up to it add weight to the bar on the OH
> >> >> squat! Simple.
> >> >
> >> > I've found that even a little extra weight makes a difference - when
> >> > you're ready for it, you want at least enough weight that you stand a
> >> > chance of losing the bar forwards or backwards if you don't keep it
> >> > centered, not an issue with a stick or a very light weight.
> >>
> >> That's why a broomstick OHS doesn't work wonders. One needs flexibility
> >> to overhead squat broomsticks, but it's quite hard to get it that way
> >> (IMHO).
> >>
> > Shane Hammon would disagree. Started with a broomstick after squatting
> > over 1,000 lbs in competition and now snatches over 400.
>
> I somehow doubt that he gained the required range of motion by "just"
> doing broomstick OHS.

I didn't suggest in the original post "just" doing broomstick OHS. I
said it was a start if you couldn't use a bar or greater resistance and
yes, that was where he started.

--
Keith
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

Dnia 2007-12-05 Andrzej Rosa napisa³(a):
> Dnia 2007-12-05 Steve Freides napisa³(a):
[...]
>>> Approach recommended by
>>> Steve actually worked for me,
>>
>> What approach was that? (I don't remember.)
>
> We wrote basically the same thing, but Hobbes put more emphasize on
> overhead squats. If you don't care checking what you wrote I see no
> point in rehashing it.

It came to me that I read you wrong here, so I was unnecessarily sour.
I understood, that you asked what your wrote *now*, not back then, when
your advice supposedly helped me. Well, as to that, I didn't follow
anybody's specific advice. I just looked around and tried various stuff
which was supposed to work, including vastly useless for me direct rotator
cuff strengthening exercises or some stretching. I ended up progressing
from side presses and one-armed muscle snatches to bent presses and my
particular version of a one-armed snatch, which looks very much like
what you suggested in this thread. Now I can do one-armed barbell
overhead squats, and I will probably start doing them for real, because
I need to stay away from some other things I like due to an overuse
injury.

--
Andrzej Rosa
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats? 

Dnia 2007-12-05 Hobbes napisa³(a):
> In article <fj72at$kdi$1@inews.gazeta.pl>,
> Andrzej Rosa <bakters RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Dnia 2007-12-05 Hobbes napisa³(a):
>> > In article <fj6v79$6jc$1@inews.gazeta.pl>,
>> > Andrzej Rosa <bakters RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Dnia 2007-12-05 Steve Freides napisa³(a):
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Time to work on your flexibility, then. http://www.kbnj.com/ris.htm
>> >> >>> or,
>> >> >>> if you can figure out his stuff (I can't), http://www.stadion.com, or
>> >> >>> Bryce Lane's flexibility booklet.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> -S-
>> >> >>> http://www.kbnj.com
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Plus, if the shoulders are up to it add weight to the bar on the OH
>> >> >> squat! Simple.
>> >> >
>> >> > I've found that even a little extra weight makes a difference - when
>> >> > you're ready for it, you want at least enough weight that you stand a
>> >> > chance of losing the bar forwards or backwards if you don't keep it
>> >> > centered, not an issue with a stick or a very light weight.
>> >>
>> >> That's why a broomstick OHS doesn't work wonders. One needs flexibility
>> >> to overhead squat broomsticks, but it's quite hard to get it that way
>> >> (IMHO).
>> >>
>> > Shane Hammon would disagree. Started with a broomstick after squatting
>> > over 1,000 lbs in competition and now snatches over 400.
>>
>> I somehow doubt that he gained the required range of motion by "just"
>> doing broomstick OHS.
>
> I didn't suggest in the original post "just" doing broomstick OHS. I
> said it was a start if you couldn't use a bar or greater resistance and
> yes, that was where he started.

I assume, that one is supposed to squat broomsticks until one is able to
do full overhead broomstick squat? If so, how long you think would it
take to get there for someone who isn't fit for back squats?

I mean, I tried this stuff to the point of squatting broomsticks several
times a day. What worked were not broomstick squats, but some
broomstick static stretches, and even this wouldn't work for ever,
because it's way too boring for me to keep at it, but I guess that's how
broomstick squats work in general. People do a lot of various stretches
along with them so you can say that they started with broomsticks, but
were broomstick squats real culprits?

--
Andrzej Rosa
 >> Stay informed about: Not enough shoulder flexibility for squats?