Conflicting Accounts

In article <1171341091.148597.93040 RemoveThis @s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com>,
"joanne" <jgrrl2 RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Feb 12, 2:32 pm, Hobbes <khobman... RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Excess calories promotes fat. Timing of nutritional intake has little to
> > do with body composition.
>
> Wellll I recall reading about fatter meal skipper gymnasts around the
> time of the Olympics .. the timing of eating can possibly mean storing
> more bodyfat even if you are arent an athlete:
>
> "One study, for instance, showed that female gymnasts and runners who
> didn't eat or snack for three hours or longer had the highest body fat
> percentages--even if they weren't consuming more calories than they
> were burning. Furthermore, the longer the gap between eating times,
> the higher the body fat, especially if they exercised during those
> noneating periods. Keep in mind that these were competitive athletes
> training hours every day--they weren't overweight. But when compared
> to fellow runners and gymnasts, those who ate fewer and bigger meals
> retained higher levels of body fat. Perhaps even more surprising, the
> same study showed that those who ate less than their energy needs--
> traditionally the recipe for weight loss-weren't losing weight. The
> runners, for example, ate an average of 200 to 400 fewer daily
> calories than they were burning, and some of these athletes reached
> points during the day when, because they were performing intense
> exercise without having eaten recently, they dipped into a caloric
> deficit of up to 1,100 calories for a few hours. But these exercisers
> were not losing weight, as you'd expect; in fact, they were among the
> "fattest" of the bunch. The reason, suspects Benardot, is that when
> deprived of food, even for just a few hours, the body desperately
> clings to any calorie it gets."
> http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0KGB/is_6_5/ai_n6110816
>
> "Others have found that some athletes with higher average within-day
> energy deficits (as measured by frequency and magnitude of deficit)
> have significantly higher body fat percentages. In a recent study by
> Deutz et al., the greater the energy deficit in gymnasts the higher
> the percentage of body fat. The authors theorized that the within-day
> energy restriction caused an adaptive reduction in resting energy
> expenditure and an increase in fat storage."
> http://www.trifuel.com/triathlon/nutrition/tips-from-the-fuel-coach-000559-pri
> nt.php

Possibly people with huge caloric requirements (such as olympic
athletes) should eat more often. But for the average person calories in
- calories out should be the rule. Face it - have you ever seen a _fat_
olympic gymnast? Even the meal skippers?

--
Keith
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In article <18565 DeleteThis @10712136.54205083.11173.507.15123>,
DZ <10388 DeleteThis @207339872.22711644.17959.6203.7545> wrote:

> joanne <jgrrl2 DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Wellll I recall reading about fatter meal skipper gymnasts around
> > the time of the Olympics .. the timing of eating can possibly mean
> > storing more bodyfat even if you are arent an athlete:
>
> Have you ever thought - WHY an Olympic athlete would be skipping his
> meals? I eat only in the evening, sometimes skip a day, have 7% bf or
> less, and I'm also fitter than most people. My review of literature
> leads me to believe that this diet (as opposed to lots of small meals)
> has health benefits that are very similar to CR. However, that kind of
> diet ("intermittent fasting") would clearly be a bad choice if my life
> was structured around athletic competitions. Therefore, most likely,
> your "skippers" are a mixture of two categories:
>
> (1) Athletes who recognize themselves as being somewhat fatter than
> their peers; these individuals skip meals because of that fact, not
> the other way around.
>
> (2) Athletes who are paying less attention to their diet in
> general. These tend to make worse choices in the kind and the amounts
> of food they eat, compared to a determined athlete who is
> painstakingly counting everything that goes into the mouth, the timing
> etc.

Good points both. The research has very little application to the
average person anyhow.

--
Keith
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"Prisoner at War" <prisoner_at_war.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> writes:

> On Feb 12, 6:25 pm, "LFM" <nothank....RemoveThis@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> not from scientific study, just from personal experience.....
>>
>> I lose more weight by not eating in the evenings - all other things being
>> equal.
>>
>> For instance, if I stick to a 1200 caloried diet, and 1hr cardio 4 times a
>> week plus 3 full body weight workouts, I lose weight better if I consume my
>> 1200 calories before 6pm than if I start eating later in the day and finish
>> consuming later at night.
>>
>> Personally though, I will have a light snack in the evenings, but the bulk
>> of my calories are consumed between 9am and 3pm.
>
>
> Interesting...my mother also thought that eating too close to sleeping
> promotes obesity -- but then again, she mistook my 17" biceps for
> fat! No joke, my sister had to explain to her that it was all muscle
> (she's from "the Old Country").
>
> But in general, I haven't noticed putting on weight more easily after
> eating close to bedtime...though on the few occasions that I did
> notice, it may have more to do with a particularly gluttonous feast
> more than simple timing! And so I ask....
>
> BTW, doesn't the body just shut down during sleep?? Digestion seems
> like a pretty big task (based on the old notion of not exercising
> right after a meal because your blood will be too busy with the
> digestive process to also carry oxygen around) for the body to be
> doing while it's totally resting, no? I do remember sometimes waking
> up in the middle of the night with my stomach (after one of them
> aforementioned feasts) all "busy"...nothing bad or painful, but I
> could definitely feel it, like, doing its thing, and being a bit
> annoyed thinking I was woken up by it!

Because "resting" is an active process. The body is repairing itself,
and this is most easily done when you are not otherwise exerting
yourself. Likewise for digestion.

--
Jim Janney
 >> Stay informed about: Conflicting Accounts 

Dnia 2007-02-13 Sir Jackery napisa³(a):
> On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, Pete wrote:
>
>> DIET is the way to go!
>>
>> And not for 3 months on, 3 months of, like Oprah, but a restriction for the
>> rest of your life.
>>
>> --
>> Pete
>
> Here here! Now if only everyone understood this and I didn't have to hear
> fat people complaining about their "genetic inferiority" all the time.

Do you think there exist none? Everybody's created equal, right.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: Conflicting Accounts 

In article <eqt5p9$c6d$1@inews.gazeta.pl>,
Andrzej Rosa <bakters DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:

> Dnia 2007-02-13 Sir Jackery napisa³(a):
> > On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, Pete wrote:
> >
> >> DIET is the way to go!
> >>
> >> And not for 3 months on, 3 months of, like Oprah, but a restriction for the
> >> rest of your life.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Pete
> >
> > Here here! Now if only everyone understood this and I didn't have to hear
> > fat people complaining about their "genetic inferiority" all the time.
>
> Do you think there exist none? Everybody's created equal, right.

I suspect the genetic predisposition to fat is less important than
social and environmental issues. There are few people who are unable to
be lean due to genetic issues. Almost everyone could get lean and fit
through exercise and good nutrition. So I would think of genetics as an
enabling factor for being lean.

--
Keith
 >> Stay informed about: Conflicting Accounts 

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In article <tr84t213oeusbde64fl62kpoc4qpqssed4 RemoveThis @4ax.com>,
Shute <Shute RemoveThis @nowhere.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:56:29 +0000 (UTC), DZ
> <10388 RemoveThis @207339872.22711644.17959.6203.7545> wrote:
>
> >joanne <jgrrl2 RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> Wellll I recall reading about fatter meal skipper gymnasts around
> >> the time of the Olympics .. the timing of eating can possibly mean
> >> storing more bodyfat even if you are arent an athlete:
> >
> >Have you ever thought - WHY an Olympic athlete would be skipping his
> >meals? I eat only in the evening, sometimes skip a day, have 7% bf or
> >less, and I'm also fitter than most people. My review of literature
> >leads me to believe that this diet (as opposed to lots of small meals)
> >has health benefits that are very similar to CR. However, that kind of
> >diet ("intermittent fasting") would clearly be a bad choice if my life
> >was structured around athletic competitions. Therefore, most likely,
> >your "skippers" are a mixture of two categories:
> >
> >(1) Athletes who recognize themselves as being somewhat fatter than
> >their peers; these individuals skip meals because of that fact, not
> >the other way around.
> >
> >(2) Athletes who are paying less attention to their diet in
> >general. These tend to make worse choices in the kind and the amounts
> >of food they eat, compared to a determined athlete who is
> >painstakingly counting everything that goes into the mouth, the timing
> >etc.
>
> I don't know if I would consider those gymnast healthy even if they
> are fit. They don't consider themselves training hard enough if they
> are still getting their period.
>

Are 'gymnast' and 'male' mutually exclusive sets?

--
Keith
 >> Stay informed about: Conflicting Accounts 

Dnia 2007-02-13 Hobbes napisa³(a):
> In article <eqt5p9$c6d$1@inews.gazeta.pl>,
> Andrzej Rosa <bakters.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Dnia 2007-02-13 Sir Jackery napisa³(a):
>> > On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, Pete wrote:
>> >
>> >> DIET is the way to go!
>> >>
>> >> And not for 3 months on, 3 months of, like Oprah, but a restriction for the
>> >> rest of your life.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Pete
>> >
>> > Here here! Now if only everyone understood this and I didn't have to hear
>> > fat people complaining about their "genetic inferiority" all the time.
>>
>> Do you think there exist none? Everybody's created equal, right.
>
> I suspect the genetic predisposition to fat is less important than
> social and environmental issues.

In exactly the same social and environmental conditions some people
will be fatter than others and I strongly suspect that correlation of
BMIs for twins is very close to 1.

> There are few people who are unable to be lean due to genetic issues.

You write it like it's an on/off switch.

> Almost everyone could get lean and fit
> through exercise and good nutrition. So I would think of genetics as an
> enabling factor for being lean.

Exactly everyone was lean in Auschwitz, so genetics doesn't work,
obviously.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: Conflicting Accounts 

In article <eqtas6$4pn$1@inews.gazeta.pl>,
Andrzej Rosa <bakters.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Dnia 2007-02-13 Hobbes napisa³(a):
> > In article <eqt5p9$c6d$1@inews.gazeta.pl>,
> > Andrzej Rosa <bakters.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Dnia 2007-02-13 Sir Jackery napisa³(a):
> >> > On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, Pete wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> DIET is the way to go!
> >> >>
> >> >> And not for 3 months on, 3 months of, like Oprah, but a restriction for
> >> >> the
> >> >> rest of your life.
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Pete
> >> >
> >> > Here here! Now if only everyone understood this and I didn't have to
> >> > hear
> >> > fat people complaining about their "genetic inferiority" all the time.
> >>
> >> Do you think there exist none? Everybody's created equal, right.
> >
> > I suspect the genetic predisposition to fat is less important than
> > social and environmental issues.
>
> In exactly the same social and environmental conditions some people
> will be fatter than others and I strongly suspect that correlation of
> BMIs for twins is very close to 1.

The twins may be close to 1, but most twins are raised in the same
household. What do you think would happen if identical twins are adopted
out a birth - with one going to a foster home with obese parents and the
other going to a foster home with lean parents?
>
> > There are few people who are unable to be lean due to genetic issues.
>
> You write it like it's an on/off switch.

No, I think it is a complex issue with a number of inputs and that
genetic input is of relatively small value.
>
> > Almost everyone could get lean and fit
> > through exercise and good nutrition. So I would think of genetics as an
> > enabling factor for being lean.
>
> Exactly everyone was lean in Auschwitz, so genetics doesn't work,
> obviously.

I was thinking of exactly that example - although it is rather extreme.

I recognize that obesity is a complex problem to have, but I hate seeing
people dodge responsibility by citing poor genetics. It is simply an
excuse. If getting lean is really important to the person they would be
able to do so. Often getting lean to obese people is of less importance
than food cravings and appetite.

Put yet another way - Anyone wanting to reduce to low bodyfat is welcome
to pay me $1,000,000 and give me one year of your time. I'll buy a cabin
in northern Saskatchewan where you'll live for a year, train you and
cook for you. Assuming you have no pathologies and are not grossly obese
I could promise single digit bodyfat after one year if you follow my
training and diet.

--
Keith
 >> Stay informed about: Conflicting Accounts 

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 21:33:58 +0000 (UTC), Andrzej Rosa
<bakters DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>Dnia 2007-02-13 Hobbes napisa?(a):
>> In article <eqt5p9$c6d$1@inews.gazeta.pl>,
>> Andrzej Rosa <bakters DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dnia 2007-02-13 Sir Jackery napisa?(a):
>>> > On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, Pete wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> DIET is the way to go!
>>> >>
>>> >> And not for 3 months on, 3 months of, like Oprah, but a restriction for the
>>> >> rest of your life.
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Pete
>>> >
>>> > Here here! Now if only everyone understood this and I didn't have to hear
>>> > fat people complaining about their "genetic inferiority" all the time.
>>>
>>> Do you think there exist none? Everybody's created equal, right.
>>
>> I suspect the genetic predisposition to fat is less important than
>> social and environmental issues.
>
>In exactly the same social and environmental conditions some people
>will be fatter than others and I strongly suspect that correlation of
>BMIs for twins is very close to 1.
>
>> There are few people who are unable to be lean due to genetic issues.
>
>You write it like it's an on/off switch.
>
>> Almost everyone could get lean and fit
>> through exercise and good nutrition. So I would think of genetics as an
>> enabling factor for being lean.
>
>Exactly everyone was lean in Auschwitz, so genetics doesn't work,
>obviously.

Not exactly true. Take a good look at the footage from Auschwitz and
you will see some people and bodies with a layer of fat on their
bellies. No muscle mass to speak of yet some fat.
 >> Stay informed about: Conflicting Accounts 

Dnia 2007-02-13 Hobbes napisa³(a):
> In article <eqtas6$4pn$1@inews.gazeta.pl>,
> Andrzej Rosa <bakters.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Dnia 2007-02-13 Hobbes napisa³(a):
>> > In article <eqt5p9$c6d$1@inews.gazeta.pl>,
>> > Andrzej Rosa <bakters.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> > Here here! Now if only everyone understood this and I didn't have to
>> >> > hear
>> >> > fat people complaining about their "genetic inferiority" all the time.
>> >>
>> >> Do you think there exist none? Everybody's created equal, right.
>> >
>> > I suspect the genetic predisposition to fat is less important than
>> > social and environmental issues.
>>
>> In exactly the same social and environmental conditions some people
>> will be fatter than others and I strongly suspect that correlation of
>> BMIs for twins is very close to 1.
>
> The twins may be close to 1, but most twins are raised in the same
> household. What do you think would happen if identical twins are adopted
> out a birth - with one going to a foster home with obese parents and the
> other going to a foster home with lean parents?

Some people actually wondered about it, and they made at least several
long term studies. To summarize, similarities between monozygotic
twins raised apart (MZA) are staggering.

I didn't bother to search for an exact number, but I could if you are
really interested. There are several ways of estimating an influence
of genetics on various factors and reasonably good data should be
available.

>> > There are few people who are unable to be lean due to genetic issues.
>>
>> You write it like it's an on/off switch.
>
> No, I think it is a complex issue with a number of inputs and that
> genetic input is of relatively small value.

American Dream (even if you are a Canadian).

>> > Almost everyone could get lean and fit
>> > through exercise and good nutrition. So I would think of genetics as an
>> > enabling factor for being lean.
>>
>> Exactly everyone was lean in Auschwitz, so genetics doesn't work,
>> obviously.
>
> I was thinking of exactly that example - although it is rather extreme.
>
> I recognize that obesity is a complex problem to have, but I hate seeing
> people dodge responsibility by citing poor genetics.

Even if they are right?

> It is simply an
> excuse. If getting lean is really important to the person they would be
> able to do so. Often getting lean to obese people is of less importance
> than food cravings and appetite.

I wonder how come I didn't balloon when I lived extremely sedentary
life style and did exactly nothing to stay in shape. Sure, I got soft
and very weak, but all the gut I developed could barely fill my palm.
I weighted roughly the same as I do now. I must be good at resisting
nonexistent food cravings, I think.

> Put yet another way - Anyone wanting to reduce to low bodyfat is welcome
> to pay me $1,000,000 and give me one year of your time. I'll buy a cabin
> in northern Saskatchewan where you'll live for a year, train you and
> cook for you. Assuming you have no pathologies and are not grossly obese
> I could promise single digit bodyfat after one year if you follow my
> training and diet.

You aren't the first one with this idea and there are people who
succeed using less drastic measures, but does it work long term?

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: Conflicting Accounts 

Dnia 2007-02-13 John Hanson napisa³(a):
> On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 21:33:58 +0000 (UTC), Andrzej Rosa
><bakters.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
>>Dnia 2007-02-13 Hobbes napisa?(a):
>>
>>> There are few people who are unable to be lean due to genetic issues.
>>
>>You write it like it's an on/off switch.
>>
>>> Almost everyone could get lean and fit
>>> through exercise and good nutrition. So I would think of genetics as an
>>> enabling factor for being lean.
>>
>>Exactly everyone was lean in Auschwitz, so genetics doesn't work,
>>obviously.
>
> Not exactly true. Take a good look at the footage from Auschwitz and
> you will see some people and bodies with a layer of fat on their
> bellies. No muscle mass to speak of yet some fat.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with the working of Auschwitz. It
was a death factory with daily transports of people from all over
Europe to be killed immediately. Bodies you've seen could be
these. Or they could be bodies of the "staff". "Staff" was mostly
Polish prisoners (their "race" was better than Jewish or Gypsy) who
provided most of physical labor there. As things went on, the amount
of starving people in Auschwitz decreased a lot. Bodies you are
talking about probably weren't bodies of people who starved to death.

But of course you are right that I used a very rough simplification.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: Conflicting Accounts