Dumbell Kings?

On Wed, 8 Feb 2006 14:00:54 -0500, "Steve Freides"
<steve DeleteThis @fridayscomputer.com> wrote:

>"JMW" <jmw DeleteThis @event.horizon> wrote in message
>news:0cbku11a1sjucllsj2d14ratgbkf02bijf@4ax.com...
>> "Steve Freides" <steve DeleteThis @fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>>
>>>"JMW" <jmw DeleteThis @event.horizon> wrote in message
>>>news:v7uiu15vcbfpdr5ra94cr5ab551lmhomms@4ax.com...
>>>> "Steve Freides" <steve DeleteThis @fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>"The Crow" <Thecrow DeleteThis @nobodyspimp.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Okay, I have a hypothetical (currently) question for you all to
>>>>>> chew
>>>>>> on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You have nothing but a pair of dumbells to work out with, in your
>>>>>> apartment/flat. You are also a novice, and so are intimidated by
>>>>>> overly complex movements (although you except that this is
>>>>>> something
>>>>>> you're just going to have to get over). You want an effective
>>>>>> exercise regime to start working out with, keeping it relatively
>>>>>> simple and abbreviated first of all, say four exercises?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm going with:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Overhead Dumbell press
>>>>>
>>>>>Yes, I'd go with the Arnold press.
>>>>
>>>> And you think that internal rotation combined with an overhead press
>>>> is a good idea for one's rotator cuffs, especially with a heavy
>>>> weight?
>>>
>>>Yes, I do. My shoulders are probably the healthiest thing on me and I
>>>credit daily Arnold presses, done with heavy kettlebells. Your
>>>shoulders aren't like, e.g., your neck or spine, where bending in
>>>multiple planes at the same time can be risky.
>>>
>>>And let's be clear about "internal rotation" in this context. You are
>>>_not_ performing one-plane rehab exercise here - shoulder rehab
>>>exercises that work on that sort of thing are typically done with
>>>light
>>>weights. But picking something up, bringing it to your chest, and
>>>pressing it overhead is a perfectly natural movement that everyone's
>>>shoulders were designed to do and need not be avoided. This is not
>>>internal (or, for that matter, external) rotation in the manner of,
>>>e.g., swimming butterfly stoke, something that has been known to cause
>>>impingement injuries for some people.
>>
>> Do you know what you're talking about, Steve? Do you know the
>> difference between a standard overhead dumbbell press and an Arnold
>> press? Are you telling me there is no internal rotation involved in
>> turning the dumbbell handles a full 180°?
>
>We'll let the people reading decide. Yes. No. I'm frankly surprised
>you're citing the Arnold Press as somehow being dangerous. Care to
>point us to someone's opinion other than yours that it's a bad exercise?
>
>-S-
>http://www.kbnj.com

I don't see the Arnold DB press as being particularly dangerous, but
let's take another example - Larry Scott's DB press.

The four stabilizing muscles of the rotator cuff all attach to the
scapula (shoulder blade). So rotator cuff stability also depends on
scapular stability. To stabilize the shoulders, you have to involve
the muscles that stabilize the scapula. To lift your scapula, you use
the back muscles and a good exercise for that would be the rotation DB
shrug where you shrug the shoulders up and then rotate them back and
lower to start position.

In sports, lifting the scapula almost always occurs with some degree
of upward rotation. Scapular stabilization in this movement utilizes
the upper and lower trapezius and the serratus anterior. A good
exercise for this would be Larry Scott's DB press where the DBs are
initially held like your holding suspenders and the arms are raised
rapidly by rotating the elbows back. The arms are never straightened.
At the top position, the hands are pronated and the pinky finger of
each hand is higher than the thumb. The DBs look like they're at a 45
degree angle in the illustration I'm looking at in Dr. Michael
Colgan's book _The New Power Program_.

This, like the Arnold Press (and its relative the kettlebell press),
looks like it would hit the three deltoid heads and therefore be
superior for shoulder health to a movement that really emphasizes the
anterior delts.

I can't comment on what's a heavy vs a light weight. That varies by
person. You can find "monster" kettlebells, but, if I'm not mistaken,
the traditional competition KB weight is about 32 KG (Steve can answer
this more accurately.) DragonDoor, Max Kettlebells, and other places
sell heftier ones, for those who need them for training purposes. My
point is that, for many relatively strong people, 70+ lb DBs or KBs
can be safely pressed Arnold-style.
>

"Dally" <Dally RemoveThis @myself.com> wrote in message
news:450242F48uohU1@individual.net...
> Ranieri wrote:
>
>> "Steve Freides" <steve RemoveThis @fridayscomputer.com> wrote in message
>>
>>
>>>We'll let the people reading decide. Yes. No. I'm frankly surprised
>>>you're citing the Arnold Press as somehow being dangerous. Care to point
>>>us to someone's opinion other than yours that it's a bad exercise?
>>>
>>
>>
>> Steve, I recall getting into it with you a while back about shoulders, I
>> think you were recommending subluxing the shoulder on bar hangs. At any
>> rate, I think you have been blessed with shoulder joints that can
>> withstand a lot of use and abuse. That's great, but it's not necessarily
>> the norm in the general population. Overhead pressing movements can be
>> problematic for an awful lot of people, not to mention throwing in a
>> rotational component.
>
> My shoulders are getting worse every year - nearly every month. What I
> keep wondering is if it it's a "use it or lose it" thing. If I don't do
> shoulder presses will I lose the ability altogether?
>
> I wish a saw a way towards regaining shoulder function.
>

Sounds like if you continue to do shoulder presses you'll lose the ability
altogether anyway. Maybe try some db lateral raises, elbows bent, hands stay
below the top of your ears and some short arc RC movement for awhile and see
if it improves.