On topic: problem with squats

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Shute wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 16:28:39 -0400, Shute <Shute RemoveThis @nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:22:35 +0100, "Bully"
>> <bully1 RemoveThis @proteinbars.co.ok> wrote:
>>
>>> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his
>>> squats, appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the
>>> weight further]. He leans way too far forward when driving up out
>>> of "the hole". I initially thought he might have a weak lower back
>>> but he deadlifts approx 140% of what he squats.
>>>
>>> Any thoughts?
>>
>> I don't know if it helps at all but I have had this same problem
>> since I started squats a few months back. I have weak hams, glutes,
>> and lower back. In my case I hadn't done any exercise for many
>> years.
>> I suspect a lot of my quad strength was maintained just by walking.
>> The squats are perhaps hitting muscles I don't use as often. When I
>> look at my body I think my glutes may shrunk the most in size over
>> the years. Maybe that is the biggest factor which hadn't
>> considered.
>>
>> I have attempted to correct this with deadlifts and good mornings. I
>> suspect I just need to keep doing more squats to fix it for good.
>> Maybe I will add in leg curls too since I hadn't thought about glutes
>> being a potential problem. My leg extension and leg curl weights
>> are very close in amounts.
>>
>> Watch more closely when he does the lift. I tend to start off
>> normally and then lean more in the further down I squat. That is
>> where the hams and glutes are playing their part. I don't feel I am
>> very good at this even with no weight.
>
> I didn't realize this problem may be related to my weak squat so I
> watched myself more closely today. I tried some leg curls afterward
> doing squats. I think my hamstrings where the most fatigued from the
> squat workout.
>
> When I first started doing squats I was using a lot more weight and I
> noticed it more in the quads. When I switched to a much lower weight
> now I feel it in the hamstrings. I think I may have been leaning
> forward to put more weight on the quads during the squat. With the
> light weight I could handle it better and the squats where more
> normal. The hamstrings are getting hit harder because they are
> weaker. So I would recommend dropping the weight quite a bit and see
> if he does them better that way.
>
> I think I might know now why my squat sucks so bad now. When I frist
> started I did most of my work on an incline hammer stregth machine. I
> am thinking that exercise may have been working mostly my quads. So
> now it is my hamstrings which are holding me back.
>
> I am glad you posted this. This might be very helpful at getting my
> squat up to a normal weight. I am going to make sure I get in some
> extra hamstring work.

Thanks to everyone who replied to this thread. The chap in question is of
the tall varierty and I do suspect his deadlift is more back than legs
[although I will check this out later this week]. For now, until we can
assess the issue further, he will drop 20kg off his squats and increase the
reps.

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
 >> Stay informed about: On topic: problem with squats 

"Lucas Buck" <sbcpark RemoveThis @earthlink.NOSPAM.net> schreef:

>>Also, this seem to be a problem with people who are over 6 feet. Shorter
>>people usually have torsos just as long as people who are 2-3 inches
>>taller.
>>The extra inches are in the legs, which also make distance you have to
>>move
>>the weight longer.

> So, what is your _solution_? Have his femurs shortened?

No.

My _solution_, assuming my assumption is correct, for this particular guy,
is to drop the squats and switch to Hacks, leg presses and extensions.

That is my _solution_.

Or, as suggested before, do front squats.

----
Pete
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Bully wrote:
> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his squats,
> appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight
> further]. He leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the
> hole". I initially thought he might have a weak lower back but he
> deadlifts approx 140% of what he squats.
>
> Any thoughts?

Relevant article: http://www.myoquip.com.au/Synchronised_squat_article.htm

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
 >> Stay informed about: On topic: problem with squats 

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Shute wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Nov 2006 21:40:07 -0000, "Bully" <bully1.RemoveThis@proteinbars.co.ok>
> wrote:
>
>> Bully wrote:
>>> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his
>>> squats, appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight
>>> further]. He leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the
>>> hole". I initially thought he might have a weak lower back but he
>>> deadlifts approx 140% of what he squats.
>>>
>>> Any thoughts?
>>
>> Relevant article:
>> http://www.myoquip.com.au/Synchronised_squat_article.htm
>
> Hey Bully I tried out some of the stretches in the link I posted.
> They didn't help too much but flexibility is probably going to take
> time.

And then some!!! I'm interested to see under Straight Leg Stretch it states
"the stretch held for 2-3 seconds at a time". For my money, developmental
stretches should be held for > 30 seconds! If you have a willing partner
[fnaar-fnaar -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finbarr_Saunders] you might
look into PNF stretching too. Actually if you want to increase dorsiflexion
you could use a thera-band for this but I never find them as effective.

> One other thing in there was to place a couple of 5-10 pound
> plates on the ground. Then place them under the heals while doing the
> squat. I tried this out at home just using a broomstick. I noticed a
> huge difference doing them that way.

Yes, but then that's avoiding the problem rather than addressing it!

> I recall using this method when
> I was a teenager. I have no idea where I got it from or why I started
> doing them that way. This isn't meant to be a long term solution but
> it has to be better then leaning into the squat.

Ah ok !

Interestingly, it only just occurred to me that they guy I am working with
is on his way back from a broken ankle and tibia - duh ! And DUH again !!!!

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
 >> Stay informed about: On topic: problem with squats 

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Shute wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Nov 2006 08:10:30 -0000, "Bully" <bully1 DeleteThis @proteinbars.co.ok>
> wrote:
>
>> Ah ok !
>>
>> Interestingly, it only just occurred to me that they guy I am
>> working with is on his way back from a broken ankle and tibia - duh
>> ! And DUH again !!!!
>
> I am pretty sure my problem stems from old injuries as well. I tried
> the calve exercise at the gym. They where actually easiest to do
> sitting on a flat surface and I agree about stretching for longer
> times. They definitely released tension and will probably help with
> calve raises. Then didn't help at all with squats.
>
> When I bend my lower leg forward I feel paid on my left inside ankle.
> I seemed to hit this best leaning against a wall with my foot
> stretched back behind me. My left foot has a stopping point which is
> painful. Maybe I can find a way to stretch it out some but I may need
> to see a doctor. I have no problems with it in day to day life so a
> doctor may not help.
>
> When I think back I guess my left leg has taken a few beatings over
> time. I took a slap shot to the ankle and another to the knee. And
> I injured the knee again in a three wheeler accident. Each time the
> area swelled up like grapefruit. I think it may have gotten worse
> now that I am older.

I now have my subject doing PNF daily on his ankle using a thera-band. We'll
see if that helps with his squat. Althoguh I will measure the results over
weeks/months rather hours/days [get my poont ?]

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
 >> Stay informed about: On topic: problem with squats 

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 >> Stay informed about: On topic: problem with squats 

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 >> Stay informed about: On topic: problem with squats 

Bully wrote:
> John Hanson wrote:
> > "Bully" wrote:
> >
> >> One of my proteges, who was coming along quite nicely with his
> >> squats, appears now to be struggling [as we've cranked up the weight
> >> further]. He leans way too far forward when driving up out of "the
> >> hole". I initially thought he might have a weak lower back but he
> >> deadlifts approx 140% of what he squats.
> >>
> >> Any thoughts?
> >
> > Have him do some front squats. That will correct the problem.
>
> Are you sure?

I'm not sure it would solve the problem as although front squats would
certainly make leaning forward more difficult to do as compared to back
squats, the offset of weight being used during the exercise would make
it... six of one versus half a dozen of the other?

I mean it your protege leans too far foward in a front squat, well,
there goes the bar or there goes his back, right? He'll drop it or
he'll round back. Also, his weight used will be significantly less so
what's the point?

Back to your original post - define _leans way too far forward when
driving up_. Is his back rounded as he's leaning forward or is he
leaning forward but with the heads up and back straight or curved the
"correct" way? I'm guessing that his physique is put together unlike
yours and so this may be his natural style or form for front squats.

As his trainer, have you "cranked up the weight further" too soon? Make
haste slowly is a familiar saying. Maybe it's also not bad advice?

No answers, but a few more questions for you to consider perhaps.

> Bully
> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

Curt
Musical bars: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_notation

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