why do football players do power cleans?

<xyzer DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1164678423.639408.98230@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> does doing power cleans translate into better on-the-field performance?
> or do you simply get better at doing power cleans?
>
>
> After all, one rule of thumb is that you get good at what you do... as
> in, you bench press, you get good at bench press -- does not mean
> you'll throw a football 15 yards farther thanyou did before you started.

They are probably more applicable than bench pressing, since at least you're
on your feet and doing an explosive type of lift. Hammer Strength makes a
plate loaded Ground Based Jammer, which may be more directly transferable to
football skills. What do the best coaches have to say on the matter?

http://us.commercial.lifefitness.com/content.cfm/jammer
 >> Stay informed about: why do football players do power cleans? 

xyzer.DeleteThis@hotmail.com wrote:
> does doing power cleans translate into better on-the-field
> performance?

Directly, doubtful. Indirectly, yes.

> or do you simply get better at doing power cleans?

That as well.

>
>
> After all, one rule of thumb is that you get good at what you do... as
> in, you bench press, you get good at bench press -- does not mean
> you'll throw a football 15 yards farther thanyou did before you
> started.

No, hence some smarter coaches focus more on strength than they do on power
in the gym, as there are plenty of power drills that are sports-related that
can be done on the training pitch!

Also, how much time will an athlete spend learning to power clean correctly,
time that could be used elsewhere? How many coaches can coach a power clean
correctly? How much higher is the risk of injury in performing power cleans
than e.g. bench press?


--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
 >> Stay informed about: why do football players do power cleans? 

In article <1164678423.639408.98230.DeleteThis@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
xyzer.DeleteThis@hotmail.com wrote:

> does doing power cleans translate into better on-the-field performance?
> or do you simply get better at doing power cleans?
>
>
> After all, one rule of thumb is that you get good at what you do... as
> in, you bench press, you get good at bench press -- does not mean
> you'll throw a football 15 yards farther thanyou did before you started.
>

Specific to vertical jump training and sprint starts. I doubt
quarterbacks are doing them much.

--
Keith
 >> Stay informed about: why do football players do power cleans? 

xyzer.DeleteThis@hotmail.com wrote:
> does doing power cleans translate into better on-the-field
> performance? or do you simply get better at doing power
cleans?
>
>
> After all, one rule of thumb is that you get good at what you
do...
> as in, you bench press, you get good at bench press -- does
not mean
> you'll throw a football 15 yards farther thanyou did before
you
> started.

I read a coaching/training manual for a major football team a
while back and the coach said he never did power cleans in the
past and he didn't recommend them to his team. He also said he
didn't know anybody that did.

Here's a quote from the Texans' manual:
--------------------------------------------
"Motor learning experts classify skills as "open" or "closed."
Closed skills require the same movement pattern in an unchanging
environment. Examples include a foul shot in basketball, shot
put, golf, diving, and performing a power clean.

Open skills are performed under varying environmental conditions
each time they are executed and require a flexibility of
movement response. Open skills include activities similar to
fielding and throwing a baseball, throwing a football on the
run, tackling an opponent or blocking a defensive lineman.

Skill transfer from task-to-task does not occur according to the
motor-learning experts. A closed skill like the power clean will
not transfer to the many open skills used to play the game of
football. Motor skill transfer studies have been conducted to
determine the transfer of one skill to another. This is called
task-to-task transfer."



K
 >> Stay informed about: why do football players do power cleans? 

<xyzer RemoveThis @hotmail.com> schreef:

> After all, one rule of thumb is that you get good at what you do... as
> in, you bench press, you get good at bench press -- does not mean
> you'll throw a football 15 yards farther thanyou did before you started.

No, but you can throw a heavier ball to the same distance...

----
Pete
 >> Stay informed about: why do football players do power cleans? 

Kromagnon wrote:
[...]

> I read a coaching/training manual for a major football team a
> while back and the coach said he never did power cleans in the
> past and he didn't recommend them to his team. He also said he
> didn't know anybody that did.
>
> Here's a quote from the Texans' manual:
> --------------------------------------------
> "Motor learning experts classify skills as "open" or "closed."
> Closed skills require the same movement pattern in an unchanging
> environment. Examples include a foul shot in basketball, shot
> put, golf, diving, and performing a power clean.
>
> Open skills are performed under varying environmental conditions
> each time they are executed and require a flexibility of
> movement response. Open skills include activities similar to
> fielding and throwing a baseball, throwing a football on the
> run, tackling an opponent or blocking a defensive lineman.
>
> Skill transfer from task-to-task does not occur according to the
> motor-learning experts. A closed skill like the power clean will
> not transfer to the many open skills used to play the game of
> football. Motor skill transfer studies have been conducted to
> determine the transfer of one skill to another. This is called
> task-to-task transfer."

I trust that's all true, but wonder what the coach would recommend to
anyone starting a new football program. Certainly increased strength
and size is a good thing. A general weight training program instead of
power clean emphasis? Squats wouldn't be ruled out regardless of any
motor skill transfer studies, right?

> K

--
Curt
 >> Stay informed about: why do football players do power cleans? 

In article <1oWdnV5IAba2cPHYnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d.DeleteThis@comcast.com>,
"Kromagnon" <s.DeleteThis@b.qqq> wrote:

> xyzer.DeleteThis@hotmail.com wrote:
> > does doing power cleans translate into better on-the-field
> > performance? or do you simply get better at doing power
> cleans?
> >
> >
> > After all, one rule of thumb is that you get good at what you
> do...
> > as in, you bench press, you get good at bench press -- does
> not mean
> > you'll throw a football 15 yards farther thanyou did before
> you
> > started.
>
> I read a coaching/training manual for a major football team a
> while back and the coach said he never did power cleans in the
> past and he didn't recommend them to his team. He also said he
> didn't know anybody that did.
>
> Here's a quote from the Texans' manual:
> --------------------------------------------
> "Motor learning experts classify skills as "open" or "closed."
> Closed skills require the same movement pattern in an unchanging
> environment. Examples include a foul shot in basketball, shot
> put, golf, diving, and performing a power clean.
>
> Open skills are performed under varying environmental conditions
> each time they are executed and require a flexibility of
> movement response. Open skills include activities similar to
> fielding and throwing a baseball, throwing a football on the
> run, tackling an opponent or blocking a defensive lineman.
>
> Skill transfer from task-to-task does not occur according to the
> motor-learning experts. A closed skill like the power clean will
> not transfer to the many open skills used to play the game of
> football. Motor skill transfer studies have been conducted to
> determine the transfer of one skill to another. This is called
> task-to-task transfer."

Sorry - I'd have to see the studies because I have seen studies that
indicate skill transfer does occur.

--
Keith
 >> Stay informed about: why do football players do power cleans? 

Hobbes wrote:
> In article <1oWdnV5IAba2cPHYnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d.DeleteThis@comcast.com>,
> "Kromagnon" <s.DeleteThis@b.qqq> wrote:
>
>> xyzer.DeleteThis@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> does doing power cleans translate into better on-the-field
>>> performance? or do you simply get better at doing power
>> cleans?
>>>
>>>
>>> After all, one rule of thumb is that you get good at what you do...
>>> as in, you bench press, you get good at bench press -- does
>> not mean
>>> you'll throw a football 15 yards farther thanyou did before
>> you
>>> started.
>>
>> I read a coaching/training manual for a major football team a
>> while back and the coach said he never did power cleans in the
>> past and he didn't recommend them to his team. He also said he
>> didn't know anybody that did.
>>
>> Here's a quote from the Texans' manual:
>> --------------------------------------------
>> "Motor learning experts classify skills as "open" or "closed."
>> Closed skills require the same movement pattern in an unchanging
>> environment. Examples include a foul shot in basketball, shot
>> put, golf, diving, and performing a power clean.
>>
>> Open skills are performed under varying environmental conditions
>> each time they are executed and require a flexibility of
>> movement response. Open skills include activities similar to
>> fielding and throwing a baseball, throwing a football on the
>> run, tackling an opponent or blocking a defensive lineman.
>>
>> Skill transfer from task-to-task does not occur according to the
>> motor-learning experts. A closed skill like the power clean will
>> not transfer to the many open skills used to play the game of
>> football. Motor skill transfer studies have been conducted to
>> determine the transfer of one skill to another. This is called
>> task-to-task transfer."
>
> Sorry - I'd have to see the studies because I have seen studies that
> indicate skill transfer does occur.

Yeah, I'd read somewhere that there was some crossover!!!

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
 >> Stay informed about: why do football players do power cleans? 

Dnia 2006-11-29 Curt napisa³(a):
> Kromagnon wrote:
> [...]
>
>> I read a coaching/training manual for a major football team a
>> while back and the coach said he never did power cleans in the
>> past and he didn't recommend them to his team. He also said he
>> didn't know anybody that did.
>>
>> Here's a quote from the Texans' manual:
>> --------------------------------------------
>> "Motor learning experts classify skills as "open" or "closed."
>> Closed skills require the same movement pattern in an unchanging
>> environment. Examples include a foul shot in basketball, shot
>> put, golf, diving, and performing a power clean.
>>
>> Open skills are performed under varying environmental conditions
>> each time they are executed and require a flexibility of
>> movement response. Open skills include activities similar to
>> fielding and throwing a baseball, throwing a football on the
>> run, tackling an opponent or blocking a defensive lineman.
>>
>> Skill transfer from task-to-task does not occur according to the
>> motor-learning experts. A closed skill like the power clean will
>> not transfer to the many open skills used to play the game of
>> football. Motor skill transfer studies have been conducted to
>> determine the transfer of one skill to another. This is called
>> task-to-task transfer."
>
> I trust that's all true, but wonder what the coach would recommend to
> anyone starting a new football program. Certainly increased strength
> and size is a good thing. A general weight training program instead of
> power clean emphasis?

You seem to assume that power cleans aren't a part of a "general weight
training program". Why?

> Squats wouldn't be ruled out regardless of any
> motor skill transfer studies, right?

Sure. Squats are holy.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: why do football players do power cleans? 

Andrzej Rosa wrote:
> Dnia 2006-11-29 Curt napisa³(a):
>> Kromagnon wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>>> I read a coaching/training manual for a major football team a
>>> while back and the coach said he never did power cleans in the
>>> past and he didn't recommend them to his team. He also said he
>>> didn't know anybody that did.
>>>
>>> Here's a quote from the Texans' manual:
>>> --------------------------------------------
>>> "Motor learning experts classify skills as "open" or "closed."
>>> Closed skills require the same movement pattern in an unchanging
>>> environment. Examples include a foul shot in basketball, shot
>>> put, golf, diving, and performing a power clean.
>>>
>>> Open skills are performed under varying environmental conditions
>>> each time they are executed and require a flexibility of
>>> movement response. Open skills include activities similar to
>>> fielding and throwing a baseball, throwing a football on the
>>> run, tackling an opponent or blocking a defensive lineman.
>>>
>>> Skill transfer from task-to-task does not occur according to the
>>> motor-learning experts. A closed skill like the power clean will
>>> not transfer to the many open skills used to play the game of
>>> football. Motor skill transfer studies have been conducted to
>>> determine the transfer of one skill to another. This is called
>>> task-to-task transfer."
>>
>> I trust that's all true, but wonder what the coach would recommend to
>> anyone starting a new football program. Certainly increased strength
>> and size is a good thing. A general weight training program instead
>> of power clean emphasis?
>
> You seem to assume that power cleans aren't a part of a "general
> weight training program". Why?

Because they are VERY difficult to coach. When you have a squad of 30
part-time players & you are coaching part-time you will do well to be able
to teach 10 of them how to deadlift correctly, let along how to power clean
!!!

>
>> Squats wouldn't be ruled out regardless of any
>> motor skill transfer studies, right?
>
> Sure. Squats are holy.

Squats of Truth.

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
 >> Stay informed about: why do football players do power cleans? 

Dnia 2006-11-29 Bully napisa³(a):
> Andrzej Rosa wrote:
>> Dnia 2006-11-29 Curt napisa³(a):
[...]
>>>
>>> I trust that's all true, but wonder what the coach would recommend to
>>> anyone starting a new football program. Certainly increased strength
>>> and size is a good thing. A general weight training program instead
>>> of power clean emphasis?
>>
>> You seem to assume that power cleans aren't a part of a "general
>> weight training program". Why?
>
> Because they are VERY difficult to coach. When you have a squad of 30
> part-time players & you are coaching part-time you will do well to be able
> to teach 10 of them how to deadlift correctly, let along how to power clean
> !!!

I see. Well, I have *no* experience in coaching groups, but I remember
reading that Dan John likes power curls, one-armed if hard pressed, and
Mike Boyle likes hang cleans.

Hang cleans can easily look ugly, because people seem to learn quick
that by swinging the bar with their knees they can move more weight, but
Boyle insists that it's all OK. I've even shown one clip of his female
athletes doing very ugly hang cleans, but taking in account that Boyle
is a testing junkie, I'd take into consideration his opinion about the
value of such bastardised hang cleans. They seem to be safer then full
cleans too.

Oh, once I'm at it. Boyle likes clean grip snatches. He has very low
injury rates, AFAIK.

>>> Squats wouldn't be ruled out regardless of any
>>> motor skill transfer studies, right?
>>
>> Sure. Squats are holy.
>
> Squats of Truth.

Let's be honest, they are often closer to Partials of Truth.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: why do football players do power cleans? 

Andrzej Rosa wrote:
> Dnia 2006-11-29 Bully napisa³(a):
>> Andrzej Rosa wrote:
>>> Dnia 2006-11-29 Curt napisa³(a):
> [...]
>>>>
>>>> I trust that's all true, but wonder what the coach would recommend
>>>> to anyone starting a new football program. Certainly increased
>>>> strength and size is a good thing. A general weight training
>>>> program instead of power clean emphasis?
>>>
>>> You seem to assume that power cleans aren't a part of a "general
>>> weight training program". Why?
>>
>> Because they are VERY difficult to coach. When you have a squad of 30
>> part-time players & you are coaching part-time you will do well to
>> be able to teach 10 of them how to deadlift correctly, let along how
>> to power clean !!!
>
> I see. Well, I have *no* experience in coaching groups, but I
> remember reading that Dan John likes power curls, one-armed if hard
> pressed, and Mike Boyle likes hang cleans.
>
> Hang cleans can easily look ugly, because people seem to learn quick
> that by swinging the bar with their knees they can move more weight,
> but Boyle insists that it's all OK. I've even shown one clip of his
> female athletes doing very ugly hang cleans, but taking in account
> that Boyle is a testing junkie, I'd take into consideration his
> opinion about the value of such bastardised hang cleans. They seem
> to be safer then full cleans too.
>
> Oh, once I'm at it. Boyle likes clean grip snatches. He has very low
> injury rates, AFAIK.
>
>>>> Squats wouldn't be ruled out regardless of any
>>>> motor skill transfer studies, right?
>>>
>>> Sure. Squats are holy.
>>
>> Squats of Truth.
>
> Let's be honest, they are often closer to Partials of Truth.

Not mine, baby!!!

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
 >> Stay informed about: why do football players do power cleans? 

Andrzej Rosa wrote:
> Dnia 2006-11-29 Curt napisa³(a):
> > Kromagnon wrote:
> > [...]
> >
> >> I read a coaching/training manual for a major football team a
> >> while back and the coach said he never did power cleans in the
> >> past and he didn't recommend them to his team. He also said he
> >> didn't know anybody that did.
> >>
> >> Here's a quote from the Texans' manual:
> >> --------------------------------------------
> >> "Motor learning experts classify skills as "open" or "closed."
> >> Closed skills require the same movement pattern in an unchanging
> >> environment. Examples include a foul shot in basketball, shot
> >> put, golf, diving, and performing a power clean.
> >>
> >> Open skills are performed under varying environmental conditions
> >> each time they are executed and require a flexibility of
> >> movement response. Open skills include activities similar to
> >> fielding and throwing a baseball, throwing a football on the
> >> run, tackling an opponent or blocking a defensive lineman.
> >>
> >> Skill transfer from task-to-task does not occur according to the
> >> motor-learning experts. A closed skill like the power clean will
> >> not transfer to the many open skills used to play the game of
> >> football. Motor skill transfer studies have been conducted to
> >> determine the transfer of one skill to another. This is called
> >> task-to-task transfer."
> >
> > I trust that's all true, but wonder what the coach would recommend to
> > anyone starting a new football program. Certainly increased strength
> > and size is a good thing. A general weight training program instead of
> > power clean emphasis?
>
> You seem to assume that power cleans aren't a part of a "general weight
> training program".

And how would you have phrased the question?

There is - by my way of thinking - no ONE "general weight training
program," however for the sake of discussion and in the context of "why
do football players do power cleans?" versus WHAT or _Either vs. Or_, I
chose to phrase it as Either being a power clean emphasis and the Or
being the unspecified "general weight training program."

Of course a program could include a variety of exercises.

Again, how would you have phrased the question?

> Why?

Because you assumed incorrectly.

Seriously, there is no why as I wouldn't necessarily exclude power
cleans from a weight training program.

Still, the power clean is in question here. Some coaches prefer it
while other coaches give it the nix. Given a coach's lack of interest
in the power clean, what would that imaginary, hypothetical coach
substitute?

Certainly there are no coaches around who do not use weights in their
programs, right? *Maybe* the 6-year-old football league.

> > Squats wouldn't be ruled out regardless of any
> > motor skill transfer studies, right?
>
> Sure. Squats are holy.

Agreed. Squats are holy!

> Andrzej Rosa 1127R

--
Curt
 >> Stay informed about: why do football players do power cleans?