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Since: Sep 24, 2007
Posts: 2
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:09 am
Post subject: elbow pain - should I still do exercises that done hurt
Archived from groups: misc>fitness>weights (more info?)
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Hi,
I recently started doing tricep pushdowns with a rope and its given me
sharp elbow pain on the outside of my elbow. It was my own fault as I
started on a much too high weight and was jerking the rope (I know I
was stupid!!!)
So I have stopped this exercise and the pain is very very slowly going
away (Ive also seen an osteo). Its suprising how long it takes
considering the pain isnt actually that bad - more of a niggling pain
now when I press the area hard with my finger. Its been almost 2
weeks so far.
My question is, should I continue doing other exercises which I know
gave me no pain before AND which dont give pain now, or should I stop
any exercises which use the triceps.
For eg, bench press I can still do with the same weight I was using
with no problems. I tested it just once a few days ago.
The reason I ask is that I know some injuries actually get better
quicker by doing exercises on them which dont hurt. I had back pain a
few years ago from sitting at work and was advised by my osteo to do
some back exercises. The exercises didnt hurt and of course
strengthened the muscles which resulted in the back pain going.
I dont know if an injury such as this would benefit from some non-
isolation tricep work. I know I have injured the tendon which is why
Im more nervous of doing any excercise on it.
Im happy to wait till its healed completely if thats the best way
though.
Regards,
Scott |
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External
Since: Jul 05, 2007
Posts: 135
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:30 am
Post subject: Re: elbow pain - should I still do exercises that done hurt [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Sep 24, 5:09 am, scott <scott_doyl... RemoveThis @johnlewis.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I recently started doing tricep pushdowns with a rope and its given me
> sharp elbow pain on the outside of my elbow. It was my own fault as I
> started on a much too high weight and was jerking the rope (I know I
> was stupid!!!)
No, not so stupid...it's essentially the same motion as a tennis
backhand, so if you'd been playing tennis you would have occasioned
the same issue....
> So I have stopped this exercise and the pain is very very slowly going
> away (Ive also seen an osteo). Its suprising how long it takes
> considering the pain isnt actually that bad - more of a niggling pain
> now when I press the area hard with my finger. Its been almost 2
> weeks so far.
Dude, I got the same problem -- more on the inside of the elbow,
though -- and that's since June, doing good ol' fashioned pull-ups and
chin-ups! And you're right, it ain't much of a pain, but a real
weakness to me...can't lift like I used to, all easy-going and
whatnot...gotta be extra mindful now, and carefully slow....
> My question is, should I continue doing other exercises which I know
> gave me no pain before AND which dont give pain now, or should I stop
> any exercises which use the triceps.
You should be all right with other exercises. For example, my left
elbow/biceps problem made doing dumbbell curls and other similar
motions real problematic, but doing hammer curls was all right!
> For eg, bench press I can still do with the same weight I was using
> with no problems. I tested it just once a few days ago.
That's interesting. I guess it's all about the angle being worked....
Go ahead and bench away. Some people around here don't think the
bench press is really about triceps, anyway! 
> The reason I ask is that I know some injuries actually get better
> quicker by doing exercises on them which dont hurt. I had back pain a
> few years ago from sitting at work and was advised by my osteo to do
> some back exercises. The exercises didnt hurt and of course
> strengthened the muscles which resulted in the back pain going.
Heck, my orthopedic surgeon told me to stop running on account of my
spinal hernia. Did I listen to him? Of course not. (WTF is health
insurance good for, anyway -- you wait almost two hours to see a guy
for five minutes' worth of "stop doing that, don't worry!") And now,
while I can't run like I used to, I'm running a lot better than I was
able to when the doc told me to give it up!
> I dont know if an injury such as this would benefit from some non-
> isolation tricep work. I know I have injured the tendon which is why
> Im more nervous of doing any excercise on it.
>
> Im happy to wait till its healed completely if thats the best way
> though.
Well, therapeutic exercises should be all right. Didn't the doc
prescribe physical therapy for you?
If you don't mind the wait, then go along with conventional medical
wisdom. Otherwise, listen to your body and see what it's willing to
put up with.
Good luck. The guessing game really sucks, I know.
> Regards,
> Scott |
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External
Since: Jan 08, 2005
Posts: 2025
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:46 pm
Post subject: Re: elbow pain - should I still do exercises that done hurt [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"scott" <scott_doyland DeleteThis @johnlewis.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1190624998.421743.199140@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> Hi,
>
> I recently started doing tricep pushdowns with a rope and its given me
> sharp elbow pain on the outside of my elbow. It was my own fault as I
> started on a much too high weight and was jerking the rope (I know I
> was stupid!!!)
>
> So I have stopped this exercise and the pain is very very slowly going
> away (Ive also seen an osteo). Its suprising how long it takes
> considering the pain isnt actually that bad - more of a niggling pain
> now when I press the area hard with my finger. Its been almost 2
> weeks so far.
>
> My question is, should I continue doing other exercises which I know
> gave me no pain before AND which dont give pain now, or should I stop
> any exercises which use the triceps.
>
> For eg, bench press I can still do with the same weight I was using
> with no problems. I tested it just once a few days ago.
>
> The reason I ask is that I know some injuries actually get better
> quicker by doing exercises on them which dont hurt. I had back pain a
> few years ago from sitting at work and was advised by my osteo to do
> some back exercises. The exercises didnt hurt and of course
> strengthened the muscles which resulted in the back pain going.
>
> I dont know if an injury such as this would benefit from some non-
> isolation tricep work. I know I have injured the tendon which is why
> Im more nervous of doing any excercise on it.
>
> Im happy to wait till its healed completely if thats the best way
> though.
>
> Regards,
> Scott
If I were you, and if your doctor approves, I'd go back to the exercise
in question with a very light weight and 100% good form and see how you
do. If it works, keep the good form, be very slow about adding the
weight but don't give up on it. Sometimes this sort of thing will
actually help - if you feel the exercise is good for you and your goals,
of course.
-S-
http://www.kbnj.com >> Stay informed about: elbow pain - should I still do exercises that done hurt |
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External
Since: Sep 24, 2007
Posts: 1
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:34 pm
Post subject: Re: elbow pain - should I still do exercises that done hurt [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Sep 24, 10:30 am, Prisoner at War <prisoner_at_... RemoveThis @yahoo.com>
wrote:
> On Sep 24, 5:09 am, scott <scott_doyl... RemoveThis @johnlewis.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
>
> > I recently started doing tricep pushdowns with a rope and its given me
> > sharp elbow pain on the outside of my elbow. It was my own fault as I
> > started on a much too high weight and was jerking the rope (I know I
> > was stupid!!!)
>
> No, not so stupid...it's essentially the same motion as a tennis
> backhand, so if you'd been playing tennis you would have occasioned
> the same issue....
>
> > So I have stopped this exercise and the pain is very very slowly going
> > away (Ive also seen an osteo). Its suprising how long it takes
> > considering the pain isnt actually that bad - more of a niggling pain
> > now when I press the area hard with my finger. Its been almost 2
> > weeks so far.
>
> Dude, I got the same problem -- more on the inside of the elbow,
> though -- and that's since June, doing good ol' fashioned pull-ups and
> chin-ups! And you're right, it ain't much of a pain, but a real
> weakness to me...can't lift like I used to, all easy-going and
> whatnot...gotta be extra mindful now, and carefully slow....
>
> > My question is, should I continue doing other exercises which I know
> > gave me no pain before AND which dont give pain now, or should I stop
> > any exercises which use the triceps.
>
> You should be all right with other exercises. For example, my left
> elbow/biceps problem made doing dumbbell curls and other similar
> motions real problematic, but doing hammer curls was all right!
>
> > For eg, bench press I can still do with the same weight I was using
> > with no problems. I tested it just once a few days ago.
>
> That's interesting. I guess it's all about the angle being worked....
>
> Go ahead and bench away. Some people around here don't think the
> bench press is really about triceps, anyway!
>
> > The reason I ask is that I know some injuries actually get better
> > quicker by doing exercises on them which dont hurt. I had back pain a
> > few years ago from sitting at work and was advised by my osteo to do
> > some back exercises. The exercises didnt hurt and of course
> > strengthened the muscles which resulted in the back pain going.
>
> Heck, my orthopedic surgeon told me to stop running on account of my
> spinal hernia. Did I listen to him? Of course not. (WTF is health
> insurance good for, anyway -- you wait almost two hours to see a guy
> for five minutes' worth of "stop doing that, don't worry!") And now,
> while I can't run like I used to, I'm running a lot better than I was
> able to when the doc told me to give it up!
>
> > I dont know if an injury such as this would benefit from some non-
> > isolation tricep work. I know I have injured the tendon which is why
> > Im more nervous of doing any excercise on it.
>
> > Im happy to wait till its healed completely if thats the best way
> > though.
>
> Well, therapeutic exercises should be all right. Didn't the doc
> prescribe physical therapy for you?
>
> If you don't mind the wait, then go along with conventional medical
> wisdom. Otherwise, listen to your body and see what it's willing to
> put up with.
>
> Good luck. The guessing game really sucks, I know.
>
>
>
> > Regards,
> > Scott- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I have found alot of good information on http://www.ezin2health.com >> Stay informed about: elbow pain - should I still do exercises that done hurt |
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External
Since: Nov 18, 2007
Posts: 53
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:35 am
Post subject: Re: elbow pain - should I still do exercises that done hurt [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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scott" <scott_doyland DeleteThis @johnlewis.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1190624998.421743.199140@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> Hi,
>
> I recently started doing tricep pushdowns with a rope and its given me
> sharp elbow pain on the outside of my elbow. It was my own fault as I
> started on a much too high weight and was jerking the rope (I know I
> was stupid!!!)
>
> So I have stopped this exercise and the pain is very very slowly going
> away (Ive also seen an osteo). Its suprising how long it takes
> considering the pain isnt actually that bad - more of a niggling pain
> now when I press the area hard with my finger. Its been almost 2
> weeks so far.
>
> My question is, should I continue doing other exercises which I know
> gave me no pain before AND which dont give pain now, or should I stop
> any exercises which use the triceps.
>
> For eg, bench press I can still do with the same weight I was using
> with no problems. I tested it just once a few days ago.
>
> The reason I ask is that I know some injuries actually get better
> quicker by doing exercises on them which dont hurt. I had back pain a
> few years ago from sitting at work and was advised by my osteo to do
> some back exercises. The exercises didnt hurt and of course
> strengthened the muscles which resulted in the back pain going.
>
> I dont know if an injury such as this would benefit from some non-
> isolation tricep work. I know I have injured the tendon which is why
> Im more nervous of doing any excercise on it.
>
> Im happy to wait till its healed completely if thats the best way
> though.
>
> Regards,
> Scott
>
#1, I saw that the resident troll, bigot, dolt, fat ass etc. PAW attempted
to give advice. PLEASE ignore him. You have pain for a reason. There is a
difference between pain and soreness. Too many people think that they have
to kill themselves in the gym to make progress and subscribe to the "no
pain, no gain" school. That is NOT a good idea!  I think that you are
better off taking the time you need to heal correctly. If you can do the
compound movements that involve the triceps like bench pressing and don't
feel any pain, then you are fine with them. Have you tried any different
triceps exercises? Can you do press downs with a bar instead of the rope?
Have you tried bench dips? If you don't know what they are, you basically
take 2 flat benches, put your feel on one and your hands behind your back on
the other and dip down. Unless you are competitive athlete, power lifter,
bodybuilder etc. and have a competition, you will always be far better off
to take the time to heal. A seemingly small injury like this can turn into
something that could bother you for the rest of your life if you don't heal
correctly.
--
Robert Schuh
"Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
- Nietzsche
http://www.hardbopdrums.com/ >> Stay informed about: elbow pain - should I still do exercises that done hurt |
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External
Since: Sep 24, 2007
Posts: 2
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:19 am
Post subject: Re: elbow pain - should I still do exercises that done hurt [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 25 Sep, 19:35, "Hard Bop Drums" <nos... RemoveThis @hardbopdrums.com> wrote:
> scott" <scott_doyl... RemoveThis @johnlewis.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:1190624998.421743.199140@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hi,
>
> > I recently started doing tricep pushdowns with a rope and its given me
> > sharp elbow pain on the outside of my elbow. It was my own fault as I
> > started on a much too high weight and was jerking the rope (I know I
> > was stupid!!!)
>
> > So I have stopped this exercise and the pain is very very slowly going
> > away (Ive also seen an osteo). Its suprising how long it takes
> > considering the pain isnt actually that bad - more of a niggling pain
> > now when I press the area hard with my finger. Its been almost 2
> > weeks so far.
>
> > My question is, should I continue doing other exercises which I know
> > gave me no pain before AND which dont give pain now, or should I stop
> > any exercises which use the triceps.
>
> > For eg, bench press I can still do with the same weight I was using
> > with no problems. I tested it just once a few days ago.
>
> > The reason I ask is that I know some injuries actually get better
> > quicker by doing exercises on them which dont hurt. I had back pain a
> > few years ago from sitting at work and was advised by my osteo to do
> > some back exercises. The exercises didnt hurt and of course
> > strengthened the muscles which resulted in the back pain going.
>
> > I dont know if an injury such as this would benefit from some non-
> > isolation tricep work. I know I have injured the tendon which is why
> > Im more nervous of doing any excercise on it.
>
> > Im happy to wait till its healed completely if thats the best way
> > though.
>
> > Regards,
> > Scott
>
> #1, I saw that the resident troll, bigot, dolt, fat ass etc. PAW attempted
> to give advice. PLEASE ignore him. You have pain for a reason. There is a
> difference between pain and soreness. Too many people think that they have
> to kill themselves in the gym to make progress and subscribe to the "no
> pain, no gain" school. That is NOT a good idea! I think that you are
> better off taking the time you need to heal correctly. If you can do the
> compound movements that involve the triceps like bench pressing and don't
> feel any pain, then you are fine with them. Have you tried any different
> triceps exercises? Can you do press downs with a bar instead of the rope?
> Have you tried bench dips? If you don't know what they are, you basically
> take 2 flat benches, put your feel on one and your hands behind your back on
> the other and dip down. Unless you are competitive athlete, power lifter,
> bodybuilder etc. and have a competition, you will always be far better off
> to take the time to heal. A seemingly small injury like this can turn into
> something that could bother you for the rest of your life if you don't heal
> correctly.
>
> --
> Robert Schuh
> "Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
> intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
> the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
> the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
> - Nietzsche
>
> http://www.hardbopdrums.com/- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks to everyone for there advice. I think I will do a few things
1. Wait until the pain has gone before I do any tricep work except
very light work.
I did some very light work yesterday (push down with a bar - 15 reps
and could have done another 5 or more) and I think it helped (thanks
Steve - it was your suggestion more or less).
2. Once the pain has gone I will take it easy even on exercises that
didnt hurt for about 2-3 weeks just to make sure, ie I will go back to
bench press with a bit less weight than before but up the reps.
3. Attempt the rope (or maybe bar) pushdowns again but much lighter
and more reps and let the tendons and ligaments build up gradually to
catch up with my muscles. If I feel the slightest pain once I start
these again I will just stop and try a different exercise instead or
maybe just rely on the benching.
I reckon another week or two and the pain will be gone. Four weeks is
just so long for a tiny thing like this - oh well.
Regards,
Scott >> Stay informed about: elbow pain - should I still do exercises that done hurt |
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External
Since: Oct 08, 2007
Posts: 2
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:24 am
Post subject: Re: elbow pain - should I still do exercises that done hurt [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Sep 24, 10:30 am, Prisoner at War <prisoner_at_....RemoveThis@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> You should be all right with other exercises. For example, my left
> elbow/biceps problem made doing dumbbell curls and other similar
> motions real problematic, but doing hammer curls was all right!
>
Have the same problem for about a year now, dumbbell curls are a real
problem, but hammer curls no pain at all. Working around the yard is
the only other time it hurts, when I do that certain motion that
mimics the dumbell curl, also I have problems twisting off the cap of
jars with my right hand, hits the same elbow area. Been throught the
PT without any help, suppose getting shot up with cortisone is next,
but I have been able to work around it for the most part. >> Stay informed about: elbow pain - should I still do exercises that done hurt |
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External
Since: Jul 05, 2007
Posts: 135
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:05 am
Post subject: Re: elbow pain - should I still do exercises that done hurt [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: misc>fitness>weights, others (more info?)
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On Sep 27, 11:17 pm, Top <t....TakeThisOut@neo.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
> Give it some thought. Make sure you don't do damage that will take the
> decision to start working out again from you.
>
> Wouldn't it be nice to be pain free.
> Top
Wouldn't it be nice to be forever young! Is there a point to getting
old?? Is there any good thing about it at all??? Sigh. >> Stay informed about: elbow pain - should I still do exercises that done hurt |
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External
Since: Sep 30, 2007
Posts: 1
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:34 am
Post subject: Re: elbow pain - should I still do exercises that done hurt [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: misc>fitness>weights (more info?)
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On Sep 24, 7:30 am, Prisoner at War <prisoner_at_... RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Sep 24, 5:09 am, scott <scott_doyl... RemoveThis @johnlewis.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
>
> > I recently started doing tricep pushdowns with a rope and its given me
> > sharpelbowpain on the outside of myelbow. It was my own fault as I
> > started on a much too high weight and was jerking the rope (I know I
> > was stupid!!!)
>
> No, not so stupid...it's essentially the same motion as atennis
> backhand, so if you'd been playingtennisyou would have occasioned
> the same issue....
>
> > So I have stopped this exercise and the pain is very very slowly going
> > away (Ive also seen an osteo). Its suprising how long it takes
> > considering the pain isnt actually that bad - more of a niggling pain
> > now when I press the area hard with my finger. Its been almost 2
> > weeks so far.
>
> Dude, I got the same problem -- more on the inside of theelbow,
> though -- and that's since June, doing good ol' fashioned pull-ups and
> chin-ups! And you're right, it ain't much of a pain, but a real
> weakness to me...can't lift like I used to, all easy-going and
> whatnot...gotta be extra mindful now, and carefully slow....
>
> > My question is, should I continue doing other exercises which I know
> > gave me no pain before AND which dont give pain now, or should I stop
> > any exercises which use the triceps.
>
> You should be all right with other exercises. For example, my leftelbow/biceps problem made doing dumbbell curls and other similar
> motions real problematic, but doing hammer curls was all right!
>
> > For eg, bench press I can still do with the same weight I was using
> > with no problems. I tested it just once a few days ago.
>
> That's interesting. I guess it's all about the angle being worked....
>
> Go ahead and bench away. Some people around here don't think the
> bench press is really about triceps, anyway!
>
> > The reason I ask is that I know some injuries actually get better
> > quicker by doing exercises on them which dont hurt. I had back pain a
> > few years ago from sitting at work and was advised by my osteo to do
> > some back exercises. The exercises didnt hurt and of course
> > strengthened the muscles which resulted in the back pain going.
>
> Heck, my orthopedic surgeon told me to stop running on account of my
> spinal hernia. Did I listen to him? Of course not. (WTF is health
> insurance good for, anyway -- you wait almost two hours to see a guy
> for five minutes' worth of "stop doing that, don't worry!") And now,
> while I can't run like I used to, I'm running a lot better than I was
> able to when the doc told me to give it up!
>
> > I dont know if an injury such as this would benefit from some non-
> > isolation tricep work. I know I have injured the tendon which is why
> > Im more nervous of doing any excercise on it.
>
> > Im happy to wait till its healed completely if thats the best way
> > though.
>
> Well, therapeutic exercises should be all right. Didn't the doc
> prescribe physical therapy for you?
>
> If you don't mind the wait, then go along with conventional medical
> wisdom. Otherwise, listen to your body and see what it's willing to
> put up with.
>
> Good luck. The guessing game really sucks, I know.
>
> > Regards,
> > Scott
If you're finding pain on the inside of your elbow using dumbells, I
recommend you stop using dumbells and use only barbells. The reason
is that when you use dumbells, you have a further range of motion
which puts more strain on your supporting joints, tendons and
ligaments but switching out to barbells you will have a limited range
of motion. Pain on the inside of your elbow is golfers elbow and pain
on the outside of your elbow is tennis elbow. For more information,
check out http://www.tenniselbowtips.com
Good luck >> Stay informed about: elbow pain - should I still do exercises that done hurt |
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Since: Jul 05, 2007
Posts: 135
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:54 am
Post subject: Re: elbow pain - should I still do exercises that done hurt [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Sep 30, 2:34 pm, 4amtechnolog... RemoveThis @gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> If you're finding pain on the inside of your elbow using dumbells, I
> recommend you stop using dumbells and use only barbells. The reason
> is that when you use dumbells, you have a further range of motion
> which puts more strain on your supporting joints, tendons and
> ligaments but switching out to barbells you will have a limited range
> of motion. Pain on the inside of your elbow is golfers elbow and pain
> on the outside of your elbow is tennis elbow. For more information,
> check outhttp://www.tenniselbowtips.com
>
> Good luck
That's funny...I would have thought dumbbells more "ergonomic" than
barbells...sure, I guess they don't have as wide or extended a range
of motion possible...but barbells introduce potential wrist issues,
don't they? >> Stay informed about: elbow pain - should I still do exercises that done hurt |
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External
Since: Aug 26, 2005
Posts: 49
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:55 am
Post subject: Re: elbow pain - should I still do exercises that done hurt [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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4amtechnologies.DeleteThis@gmail.com wrote:
> If you're finding pain on the inside of your elbow using dumbells, I
> recommend you stop using dumbells and use only barbells. The reason
> is that when you use dumbells, you have a further range of motion
> which puts more strain on your supporting joints, tendons and
> ligaments but switching out to barbells you will have a limited range
> of motion. Pain on the inside of your elbow is golfers elbow and pain
> on the outside of your elbow is tennis elbow. For more information,
> check out http://www.tenniselbowtips.com
If you're developing tennis elbow then doesn't that mean that you're
developing power in your big muscles which your elbows are finding it
difficult to handle? If so, then if you switch to a more constrained
exercise regime you'll be able to develop even more big muscle
strength without addressing the elbow weakness problem. Isn't that
increasing the danger that one day you'll carelessly do a strong lift
in an awkward position and do yourself a nasty injury?
--
Chris Malcolm cam.DeleteThis@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/] >> Stay informed about: elbow pain - should I still do exercises that done hurt |
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Joined: Oct 04, 2007
Posts: 21
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:30 pm
Post subject: [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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