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Why are there so many conflicting bodybuilding techniques?

 
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fivefourteen

External


Since: Jul 04, 2007
Posts: 3



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:48 am
Post subject: Why are there so many conflicting bodybuilding techniques?
Archived from groups: misc>fitness>weights (more info?)

Hi All,

While doing remedial research on bodybuilding routines/splits etc, I
found that there are so many contradictory statements. You would
imagine bodybuilding is not a theoretical abstraction, like string
theory or relativistic thermodynamics.

There are theories that say, no range of motion (static loading), full
range of motion. Train once a week, twice a week, twice a day. Always
go to failure, never go to failure. Go for the pump, pump is not
important. Two sets per muscle, 4 sets per muscle.

I guess there are probably two simple explanations? It all works to
some extent, given effort and eating. In addition, people's body are
different and respond to different stimuli.

I guess the confusion comes from the fact that bodybuilding (weight
training) is readily accessible so everyone is an "expert".

But there should be some universal quantifiable (non abstract)
theorems. What are they?
Let me start with one that I **Think** is true,

A person going to failure will grow faster than a person not going to
failure.
It is better to train three days a week (1 hour a day) than one day a
week for three hours.
In the long run, full range of motion will be better than static
loading.
In the long run, a person reaching pump will grow faster than a person
never reaching pump???

Anyways just venting my frustration...maybe I should read scientific
literature on this subject.

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Prisoner at War

External


Since: Jul 05, 2007
Posts: 135



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:05 pm
Post subject: Re: Why are there so many conflicting bodybuilding techniques? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Jul 22, 2:48 pm, fivefourteen <artyspo....TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> While doing remedial research on bodybuilding routines/splits etc, I
> found that there are so many contradictory statements. You would
> imagine bodybuilding is not a theoretical abstraction, like string
> theory or relativistic thermodynamics.

Actually, precisely because it cannot be thoroughly theorized yet is
why you see the manifold phenomena that confuses most everyone.

Insofar as it is a physical art, like dance, there are many different
ways of doing it, of being it, of expressing it.

As well, insofar as there are different genetics and potentials, there
are different theories and techniques better suited to each one.

Mainly, medical science and research is focused on the catastrophic,
the acute -- bodybuilding and even fitness in general receives very
little attention by comparison, for obvious reasons, so we're still at
the infancy of our understanding.

> There are theories that say, no range of motion (static loading), full
> range of motion. Train once a week, twice a week, twice a day. Always
> go to failure, never go to failure. Go for the pump, pump is not
> important. Two sets per muscle, 4 sets per muscle.

Indeed. Look at something like acupuncture -- been around for
thousands of years, and has helped many, though research is still only
just beginning on it.

Part of the problem lies in defining the problem: just what are you
looking to test for? Etc.

> I guess there are probably two simple explanations? It all works to
> some extent, given effort and eating. In addition, people's body are
> different and respond to different stimuli.

Something like that.

> I guess the confusion comes from the fact that bodybuilding (weight
> training) is readily accessible so everyone is an "expert".

Just like politics -- which is why there's so much of that around
here. ^_^

> But there should be some universal quantifiable (non abstract)
> theorems. What are they?
> Let me start with one that I **Think** is true,
>
> A person going to failure will grow faster than a person not going to
> failure.

Hard to say. Perhaps "failure" causes injuries that take longer to
heal? Not even catastrophic injuries, mind you, but the kind that
cause, say, a feeling of chronic fatigue or ill-ease. And, though I
like the psychological feeling of having exhausted myself 100% (by
which condition I mean "failure") I can imagine how for some that's
actually discouraging, to feel so drained, which in turn could lead to
slower progress insofar as that person works out only once a week, say
(which is, actually, that HIT stuff promoted by Mentzer and
Ellington).

> It is better to train three days a week (1 hour a day) than one day a
> week for three hours.

I've done most such schemes, from 4-5 hours per session to 1-3 per
session, 3-5 times per week, and they all seem to work. I think it
just boils down to personal preference -- psychological factors.

> In the long run, full range of motion will be better than static
> loading.

Depends -- some full ROM advice has some chiropractors and orthopedic
surgeons cringe.

> In the long run, a person reaching pump will grow faster than a person
> never reaching pump???

Hard to say. It certainly feels good.

> Anyways just venting my frustration...maybe I should read scientific
> literature on this subject.

It's almost as bad as trying to account for the weather -- and we know
even less!

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Prisoner at War

External


Since: Jul 05, 2007
Posts: 135



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Why are there so many conflicting bodybuilding techniques? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Jul 22, 2:48 pm, fivefourteen <artyspo... RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> While doing remedial research on bodybuilding routines/splits etc, I
> found that there are so many contradictory statements. You would
> imagine bodybuilding is not a theoretical abstraction, like string
> theory or relativistic thermodynamics.

Actually, precisely because it cannot be thoroughly theorized yet is
why you see the manifold phenomena that confuses most everyone.

Insofar as it is a physical art, like dance, there are many different
ways of doing it, of being it, of expressing it.

As well, insofar as there are different genetics and potentials, there
are different theories and techniques better suited to each one.

Mainly, medical science and research is focused on the catastrophic,
the acute -- bodybuilding and even fitness in general receives very
little attention by comparison, for obvious reasons, so we're still at
the infancy of our understanding.

> There are theories that say, no range of motion (static loading), full
> range of motion. Train once a week, twice a week, twice a day. Always
> go to failure, never go to failure. Go for the pump, pump is not
> important. Two sets per muscle, 4 sets per muscle.

Indeed. Look at something like acupuncture -- been around for
thousands of years, and has helped many, though research is still only
just beginning on it.

Part of the problem lies in defining the problem: just what are you
looking to test for? Etc.

> I guess there are probably two simple explanations? It all works to
> some extent, given effort and eating. In addition, people's body are
> different and respond to different stimuli.

Something like that.

> I guess the confusion comes from the fact that bodybuilding (weight
> training) is readily accessible so everyone is an "expert".

Just like politics -- which is why there's so much of that around
here. ^_^

> But there should be some universal quantifiable (non abstract)
> theorems. What are they?
> Let me start with one that I **Think** is true,
>
> A person going to failure will grow faster than a person not going to
> failure.

Hard to say. Perhaps "failure" causes injuries that take longer to
heal? Not even catastrophic injuries, mind you, but the kind that
cause, say, a feeling of chronic fatigue or ill-ease. And, though I
like the psychological feeling of having exhausted myself 100% (by
which condition I mean "failure") I can imagine how for some that's
actually discouraging, to feel so drained, which in turn could lead to
slower progress insofar as that person works out only once a week, say
(which is, actually, that HIT stuff promoted by Mentzer and
Ellington).

> It is better to train three days a week (1 hour a day) than one day a
> week for three hours.

I've done most such schemes, from 4-5 hours per session to 1-3 per
session, 3-5 times per week, and they all seem to work. I think it
just boils down to personal preference -- psychological factors.

> In the long run, full range of motion will be better than static
> loading.

Depends -- some full ROM advice has some chiropractors and orthopedic
surgeons cringe.

> In the long run, a person reaching pump will grow faster than a person
> never reaching pump???

Hard to say. It certainly feels good.

> Anyways just venting my frustration...maybe I should read scientific
> literature on this subject.

It's almost as bad as trying to account for the weather -- and we know
even less!
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Prisoner at War

External


Since: Jul 05, 2007
Posts: 135



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 1:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Why are there so many conflicting bodybuilding techniques? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Clones? If you're playing semantic games, here....


On Jul 22, 4:06 pm, "David Cohen" <sammies... DeleteThis @earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
> Two brothers, born to the same mother and the same father, born within
> minutes of one another, look identical, are genetically identical,
> BUT...they are NOT twins. How can this be?
>
> David
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Prisoner at War

External


Since: Jul 05, 2007
Posts: 135



(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 1:13 pm
Post subject: Re: Why are there so many conflicting bodybuilding techniques? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Jul 22, 4:03 pm, Omelet <omp_ome... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> <SNIP>
>
> No one human is identical to another unless you are twins.

Hey! Now that would be a great idea for an experiment: prescribe
different workout routines to sets of twins! Different diets, etc.

Surely someone's already done all this somewhere somewhen???

> --
> Peace, Om
>
> Remove _ to validate e-mails.
>
> "My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson
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Omelet

External


Since: Nov 02, 2006
Posts: 377



(Msg. 6) Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Why are there so many conflicting bodybuilding techniques? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <1185130096.546820.198250 RemoveThis @z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
fivefourteen <artysporty RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:

<snipped>

For the same reason that there are so many different diet techniques.

It's dynamic.

No one human is identical to another unless you are twins.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson
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Steve Freides

External


Since: Jan 08, 2005
Posts: 2032



(Msg. 7) Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Why are there so many conflicting bodybuilding techniques? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"fivefourteen" <artysporty.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1185130096.546820.198250@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> Hi All,
>
> While doing remedial research on bodybuilding routines/splits etc, I
> found that there are so many contradictory statements. You would
> imagine bodybuilding is not a theoretical abstraction, like string
> theory or relativistic thermodynamics.
>
> There are theories that say, no range of motion (static loading), full
> range of motion. Train once a week, twice a week, twice a day. Always
> go to failure, never go to failure. Go for the pump, pump is not
> important. Two sets per muscle, 4 sets per muscle.
>
> I guess there are probably two simple explanations? It all works to
> some extent, given effort and eating. In addition, people's body are
> different and respond to different stimuli.

There you go - you answered your own question. Thank you from all of us
here on mfw.

> I guess the confusion comes from the fact that bodybuilding (weight
> training) is readily accessible so everyone is an "expert".
>
> But there should be some universal quantifiable (non abstract)
> theorems. What are they?
> Let me start with one that I **Think** is true,
>
> A person going to failure will grow faster than a person not going to
> failure.
> It is better to train three days a week (1 hour a day) than one day a
> week for three hours.
> In the long run, full range of motion will be better than static
> loading.
> In the long run, a person reaching pump will grow faster than a person
> never reaching pump???

A person always training to failure may make better progress short-term,
but those who can tolerate, let alone thrive, on such a protocol on a
regular basis are relatively few and far between. Most programs that
advocate training to failure no longer advocate it all the time.

I prefer to train as hard as possible as often as possible because
training, and relatively high weekly volume, makes me feel better, plain
and simple. Not the best thing for getting bigger, I realize, but for
me it's the best thing for staying happy and healthy in my training.
Therefore, I go to failure only at meets and once in a great while
otherwise (maybe once every few months maximum and usually by accident).

> Anyways just venting my frustration...maybe I should read scientific
> literature on this subject.

Well, there you go.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com
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David Cohen

External


Since: Jan 24, 2005
Posts: 1423



(Msg. 8) Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 5:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Why are there so many conflicting bodybuilding techniques? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Omelet" <omp_omelet.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote

> No one human is identical to another unless you are twins.

Two brothers, born to the same mother and the same father, born within
minutes of one another, look identical, are genetically identical,
BUT...they are NOT twins. How can this be?

David
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Curt

External


Since: Jun 02, 2007
Posts: 153



(Msg. 9) Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:19 am
Post subject: Re: Why are there so many conflicting bodybuilding techniques? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

fivefourteen wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> While doing remedial research on bodybuilding routines/splits etc, I
> found that there are so many contradictory statements.

True.

> You would imagine

THAT KIM BASINGER WOULD HAVE CALLED ME BY NOW, BUT SHE HASN'T!

Ahem.

Sorry. Never mind. Excuse me.

> bodybuilding is not a theoretical abstraction, like string
> theory or relativistic thermodynamics.

Great! Now I've got a headache. Two-syllable limit in the future,
please.

> There are theories that say, no range of motion (static loading), full
> range of motion. Train once a week, twice a week, twice a day. Always
> go to failure, never go to failure. Go for the pump, pump is not
> important. Two sets per muscle, 4 sets per muscle.
>
> I guess there are probably two simple explanations? It all works to
> some extent, given effort and eating. In addition, people's body are
> different and respond to different stimuli.
>
> I guess the confusion comes from the fact that bodybuilding (weight
> training) is readily accessible so everyone is an "expert".
>
> But there should be some universal quantifiable (non abstract)
> theorems. What are they?

How about this? Variety is the spice of life.

Plus people on AAS and 6000 Kcals a day will grow on anything.
(Maybe.)

> Let me start with one that I **Think** is true,
>
> A person going to failure will grow faster than a person not going to
> failure.

It's all about PROGRESSIVE resistance, right? So I suspect going to
failure at least some of the time would help push those limits versus
doing 10-pound dumbbell curls forever and then being surprised you're
never able to do 12 pounds, right?

> It is better to train three days a week (1 hour a day) than one day a
> week for three hours.

I agree on that, too. (Did you check out the McRobert link?
http://www.hardgainer.com/ )

> In the long run, full range of motion will be better than static
> loading.

Where'd I put that Bullworker?

> In the long run, a person reaching pump will grow faster than a person
> never reaching pump???

Nice to have that blood flowing to the muscle, but, uh, I think
McRobert disagrees.

> Anyways just venting my frustration...maybe I should read scientific
> literature on this subject.

Flex is a lot more fun. Does PubMed have a BIKINI issue???

--
Curt
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Omelet

External


Since: Nov 02, 2006
Posts: 377



(Msg. 10) Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:09 am
Post subject: Re: Why are there so many conflicting bodybuilding techniques? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <1185135193.751447.292200.TakeThisOut@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
Prisoner at War <prisoner_at_war.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Jul 22, 4:03 pm, Omelet <omp_ome....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > <SNIP>
> >
> > No one human is identical to another unless you are twins.
>
> Hey! Now that would be a great idea for an experiment: prescribe
> different workout routines to sets of twins! Different diets, etc.
>
> Surely someone's already done all this somewhere somewhen???
>

Could be interesting...
I think that psych studies have been done on twins separated at birth?

(Nature vs. nurture)
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson
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Omelet

External


Since: Nov 02, 2006
Posts: 377



(Msg. 11) Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:11 am
Post subject: Re: Why are there so many conflicting bodybuilding techniques? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <VMOoi.10759$Od7.3747@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
"David Cohen" <sammiesdad.TakeThisOut@earthlink.net> wrote:

> "Omelet" <omp_omelet.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote
>
> > No one human is identical to another unless you are twins.
>
> Two brothers, born to the same mother and the same father, born within
> minutes of one another, look identical, are genetically identical,
> BUT...they are NOT twins. How can this be?
>
> David

You would catch me with this question at 4 am...

I know about fraternal twins (2 separate eggs) but looks like that does
not apply to your question? Wink
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson
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Tom Anderson

External


Since: May 02, 2006
Posts: 297



(Msg. 12) Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:12 am
Post subject: Re: Why are there so many conflicting bodybuilding techniques? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007, fivefourteen wrote:

> While doing remedial research on bodybuilding routines/splits etc, I
> found that there are so many contradictory statements. You would imagine
> bodybuilding is not a theoretical abstraction, like string theory or
> relativistic thermodynamics.

Quite so. The human body is part of the physical universe, and is subject
to mechanical natural law just like the rest of it.

The thing is, we haven't yet studied it enough to be sure about the best
way to do bodybuilding. There's not a lot of funding available, so there
aren't many people working on it, and they're doing fairly small-scale
studies.

Also, what we do know isn't widely known: the bodybuilding industry
depends to a large extent on people's ignorance to make money, so they
have no interest in disseminating good science. If everyone knew the
truth, how could they sell their latest programme or bullshit product?

> Anyways just venting my frustration...maybe I should read scientific
> literature on this subject.

That would be a good start!

tom

--
Only the bagel has the correct aspect ratio.
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Prisoner at War

External


Since: Jul 05, 2007
Posts: 135



(Msg. 13) Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:52 am
Post subject: Re: Why are there so many conflicting bodybuilding techniques? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Jul 23, 8:21 am, "Pete" <phouts....RemoveThis@wanadoo.nl> wrote:
>
>
> Going to failure doesnt mean causing injury.

Correct -- but there is a strong correlation, oftentimes, and many
people avoid going to failure partly for that reason. It's a very
fine line, after all, and most folks play it safe.

> --
> Pete
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Prisoner at War

External


Since: Jul 05, 2007
Posts: 135



(Msg. 14) Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:00 am
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Oh, definitely interesting -- and the nature versus nurture debate is,
IIRC, a settled issue, for most the part, since twins separated at
birth demonstrate striking similarities that go beyond their genetic
resemblances, like marrying wives with the same first names, working
in the same occupations, enjoying the same foods, sharing the same
politics....

So it would really be cool if they would force these twins to pursue
different weight training programs -- heck, pump 'em full of 'roids
and see what works when and how!!! ^_^



On Jul 23, 5:09 am, Omelet <omp_ome....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Could be interesting...
> I think that psych studies have been done on twins separated at birth?
>
> (Nature vs. nurture)
> --
> Peace, Om
>
> Remove _ to validate e-mails.
>
> "My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson
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Pete

External


Since: Apr 16, 2006
Posts: 1472



(Msg. 15) Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:22 am
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"Prisoner at War" <prisoner_at_war DeleteThis @yahoo.com> schreef:

> Hard to say. Perhaps "failure" causes injuries that take longer to
> heal?

Going to failure doesnt mean causing injury.

--
Pete
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