bench press and overhead press question

AKAnorth85 DeleteThis @aol.com wrote:
>
> Anyways why was "overhead press" included in the title when there were
> no mentions of either a military press, push press, behind the neck
> press, dumbbell overhead press, or "olympic press"?

because i pressed "post" before finishing my question. i was stuck in
thought about the whole bench press issue.

to finish my question, what i meant to ask was: is it
counterproductive, after 12 sets of 5-rep straight bar bench, to
perform overhead presses?
 >> Stay informed about: bench press and overhead press question 

Pete wrote:
>
> It seems almost impossible to hit the front delts without hitting the
> medials, especially in pressing movements.
>
> ----
> Pete

from experience, i know that my side delts are really tired after
benching, but i never could tell just how hard they were hit.

i've seen guys who've used an abbreviated powerlifting routine
consisting of just deadlift, bench, and squats. i've never noticed
these guys to be lacking in shoulder development.

thx
 >> Stay informed about: bench press and overhead press question 

"Pez D Spencer" <colecoadam.DeleteThis@gmail.com> schreef:

> my question is this: how hard does the straight bar flat bench hit the
> shoulder musculature? i know it hits my front delts hard, but does it
> hit the side delts?

I am pretty sure, yes.

It seems almost impossible to hit the front delts without hitting the
medials, especially in pressing movements.

----
Pete
 >> Stay informed about: bench press and overhead press question 

<AKAnorth85 RemoveThis @aol.com> schreef:

>> my question is this: how hard does the straight bar flat bench hit the
>> shoulder musculature? i know it hits my front delts hard, but does it
>> hit the side delts?

> Maybe it was just a temporary shoulder problem that needed time to heal
> and it appears to have been fully healed. Anyways, benching hits the
> pecs primarily, triceps secondarily, front delts tertiarily...

That depends on grip and the structure of the person pushing the weight.

> lats quaterniarily, grip muscles quinterniarily, and I don't think it hits
> the side delts much if at all.

I think it hits them pretty hard.

> Working on dumbbell overhead presses
> will hit the side delts.

How do you press a dumbell overhead?

----
Pete
 >> Stay informed about: bench press and overhead press question 

Pez D Spencer ha escrito:

> this is something i've always been curious about, and i've begun
> thinking about a lot since i've started bench pressing again. i
> eliminated straight bar flat bench presses from my workout routine back
> in 1993 because i thought it was aggravating a nerve in my shoulder.
>
> anyway, i've added flat bench back into my routine over the past month
> and my shoulder seems to be handling it just fine.
>
> my question is this: how hard does the straight bar flat bench hit the
> shoulder musculature? i know it hits my front delts hard, but does it
> hit the side delts?

Hit in a good or bad way? It would depend on your form; the typical
bodybuilding press (elbows flared out perpendicular to body, bar to the
neck/upper chest, flat back on bench) crippled my right shoulder.

Much better to do them with your back arched and tight, scapula
retracted, feet firmly on floor, elbows as close to your body as
possible, and bar as down your chest as possible. It doesn´t bother my
shoulder if I keep this form.

I don't think it affects medial delts too much; I do behind the neck
presses for shoulders, anyway.
 >> Stay informed about: bench press and overhead press question 

"Pez D Spencer" <colecoadam RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154882366.858528.304200@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Pete wrote:
>>
>> It seems almost impossible to hit the front delts without hitting the
>> medials, especially in pressing movements.
>>
>> ----
>> Pete
>
> from experience, i know that my side delts are really tired after
> benching, but i never could tell just how hard they were hit.
>
> i've seen guys who've used an abbreviated powerlifting routine
> consisting of just deadlift, bench, and squats. i've never noticed
> these guys to be lacking in shoulder development.

It's not a lack of shoulder development that's the problem with benching
a lot, it's that, for many people, it leads to injury, whereas OH
pressing seems to lead shoulder development that's as good or better but
without the rotator cuff and other common injuries. The reason people
who don't compete bench press, IMHO, is that bench pressing will do much
more for pec development than overhead pressing and people want that.
If you're after solid shoulders, overhead presses will serve you very
well.

Just my opinion.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com
 >> Stay informed about: bench press and overhead press question 

Steve Freides wrote:
>
> It's not a lack of shoulder development that's the problem with benching
> a lot, it's that, for many people, it leads to injury, whereas OH
> pressing seems to lead shoulder development that's as good or better but
> without the rotator cuff and other common injuries. The reason people
> who don't compete bench press, IMHO, is that bench pressing will do much
> more for pec development than overhead pressing and people want that.
> If you're after solid shoulders, overhead presses will serve you very
> well.
>
> Just my opinion.
>
> -S-
> http://www.kbnj.com

i added in overhead press and dips into my routine many years ago
because of the problems i was having with bench press, and it was the
opinion of arthur jones (i've read most of his stuff--it's
entertaining, at least) that overhead press was much more beneficial
than straight bar bench.

however, i honestly never noticed that great of an effect on my pec
development from dips. and, on top of that, it felt like the dips were
hurting my shoulders. maybe i was trying to go too heavy on the dips,
but it always felt like my shoulders were being stressed too much in
the deep position.

of course, this was all before a two year (complete) layoff of
training.

maybe i'll take another look at dips again....

what do you think about dips for pec development rather than bench
press? less chance of injury? is the exercise more efficient and
effective than bench?

thx
 >> Stay informed about: bench press and overhead press question 

Pez D Spencer wrote:
[...]

> and it was the opinion of arthur jones (i've read
> most of his stuff--it's entertaining, at least)

You keep... dismissing Arthur Jones. Please list your inventions,
creations, and accomplishments before posting another disparaging
comment wrt Jones.

--
Curt
 >> Stay informed about: bench press and overhead press question 

"Pez D Spencer" <colecoadam DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Steve Freides wrote:
>>
>> It's not a lack of shoulder development that's the problem with benching
>> a lot, it's that, for many people, it leads to injury, whereas OH
>> pressing seems to lead shoulder development that's as good or better but
>> without the rotator cuff and other common injuries. The reason people
>> who don't compete bench press, IMHO, is that bench pressing will do much
>> more for pec development than overhead pressing and people want that.
>> If you're after solid shoulders, overhead presses will serve you very
>> well.
>>
>> Just my opinion.
>>
>> -S-
>> http://www.kbnj.com
>
>i added in overhead press and dips into my routine many years ago
>because of the problems i was having with bench press, and it was the
>opinion of arthur jones (i've read most of his stuff--it's
>entertaining, at least) that overhead press was much more beneficial
>than straight bar bench.
>
>however, i honestly never noticed that great of an effect on my pec
>development from dips. and, on top of that, it felt like the dips were
>hurting my shoulders. maybe i was trying to go too heavy on the dips,
>but it always felt like my shoulders were being stressed too much in
>the deep position.

That's probably because you went too deep. I learned that the hard
way. It seems that you did, too.

Don't allow your shoulders to drop below the level of your elbows.
There is no ergonomic advantage to doing that, just injury. I have
resumed doing dips, and even though my shoulders will never be totally
healed, I don't have problems if I follow that simple rule. And FWIW,
I use as much as 135# on the dip belt without a problem as long as I
limit the range of motion.
 >> Stay informed about: bench press and overhead press question 

Curt James wrote:
> Pez D Spencer wrote:
> [...]
>
> > and it was the opinion of arthur jones (i've read
> > most of his stuff--it's entertaining, at least)
>
> You keep... dismissing Arthur Jones. Please list your inventions,
> creations, and accomplishments before posting another disparaging
> comment wrt Jones.
>
> --
> Curt

i've never dismissed jones. i respect jones. you haven't been reading
my posts very closely.

i don't fully agree with jones' theories.

if you can show me any "disparaging comment wrt Jones," i'll sit
corrected. i have nothing but respect for mr. jones.

i don't, however, have respect for a thread-killing gnome such as
yourself.

google groups doesn't offer a filter, otherwise i would have killfiled
you months ago.
 >> Stay informed about: bench press and overhead press question 

"Pez D Spencer" <colecoadam.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154966521.442526.63980@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Steve Freides wrote:
>>
>> It's not a lack of shoulder development that's the problem with
>> benching
>> a lot, it's that, for many people, it leads to injury, whereas OH
>> pressing seems to lead shoulder development that's as good or better
>> but
>> without the rotator cuff and other common injuries. The reason
>> people
>> who don't compete bench press, IMHO, is that bench pressing will do
>> much
>> more for pec development than overhead pressing and people want that.
>> If you're after solid shoulders, overhead presses will serve you very
>> well.
>>
>> Just my opinion.
>>
>> -S-
>> http://www.kbnj.com
>
> i added in overhead press and dips into my routine many years ago
> because of the problems i was having with bench press, and it was the
> opinion of arthur jones (i've read most of his stuff--it's
> entertaining, at least) that overhead press was much more beneficial
> than straight bar bench.
>
> however, i honestly never noticed that great of an effect on my pec
> development from dips. and, on top of that, it felt like the dips
> were
> hurting my shoulders. maybe i was trying to go too heavy on the dips,
> but it always felt like my shoulders were being stressed too much in
> the deep position.
>
> of course, this was all before a two year (complete) layoff of
> training.
>
> maybe i'll take another look at dips again....
>
> what do you think about dips for pec development rather than bench
> press? less chance of injury? is the exercise more efficient and
> effective than bench?

Dips are another one of those exercises that seem to lead to injury for
a lot of people. I have no magic solution for you, I'm afraid -
experiment with your technique and range of motion to find a good
combination. As to pec development, I don't do dips so I won't give
specifics but there are things you do with body lean that cause more or
less pec involvement in dips. It makes sense to me that turning the
exercise into more of a pushup or upsidedown bench press by leaning
forward into it would somehow involve your pecs more. Perhaps someone
else can explain in more detail.

There are plenty of alternatives for pec development, e.g., crush curls,
dumbbell/kettlebell floor presses, etc., but as to what's "good" or not,
I believe nice chests belong on women so I don't do anything targeted
at the pecs and really don't know.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com
 >> Stay informed about: bench press and overhead press question 

Pez D Spencer wrote:
[...]

> i've never dismissed jones.

Right.

"i've read most of his stuff--it's entertaining, at least" is just
THICK with NOT dismissing Jonesishness. Why, you're positively kissing
his ass with those words.

> i respect jones.

Riiiiight.

You respect Jones. Maybe it's just me, but your quote sounds very much
like, "Hey, at least he's good for a laugh."

> you haven't been reading my posts very closely.
>
> i don't fully agree with jones' theories.
>
> if you can show me any "disparaging comment wrt Jones," i'll sit
> corrected. i have nothing but respect for mr. jones.

Sit corrected then. HIS STUFF, IT'S ENTERTAINING *AT LEAST*. is not
respectful in tone, imo. I'd like to present that as my "disparaging
comment wrt Jones," 'kay?

> i don't, however, have respect for a thread-killing gnome such as
> yourself.
>
> google groups doesn't offer a filter, otherwise i would have killfiled
> you months ago.

Yeah, I would have kill filed you, too. BUT, HEY, YOUR STUFF, IT'S
ENTERTAINING AT LEAST! Okay, it's not, actually.

--
Curt
 >> Stay informed about: bench press and overhead press question 

"Steve Freides" <steve DeleteThis @fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>"Pez D Spencer" <colecoadam DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Steve Freides wrote:
>>>
>>> It's not a lack of shoulder development that's the problem with
>>> benching
>>> a lot, it's that, for many people, it leads to injury, whereas OH
>>> pressing seems to lead shoulder development that's as good or better
>>> but
>>> without the rotator cuff and other common injuries. The reason
>>> people
>>> who don't compete bench press, IMHO, is that bench pressing will do
>>> much
>>> more for pec development than overhead pressing and people want that.
>>> If you're after solid shoulders, overhead presses will serve you very
>>> well.
>>>
>>> Just my opinion.
>>
>> i added in overhead press and dips into my routine many years ago
>> because of the problems i was having with bench press, and it was the
>> opinion of arthur jones (i've read most of his stuff--it's
>> entertaining, at least) that overhead press was much more beneficial
>> than straight bar bench.
>>
>> however, i honestly never noticed that great of an effect on my pec
>> development from dips. and, on top of that, it felt like the dips
>> were
>> hurting my shoulders. maybe i was trying to go too heavy on the dips,
>> but it always felt like my shoulders were being stressed too much in
>> the deep position.
>>
>> of course, this was all before a two year (complete) layoff of
>> training.
>>
>> maybe i'll take another look at dips again....
>>
>> what do you think about dips for pec development rather than bench
>> press? less chance of injury? is the exercise more efficient and
>> effective than bench?
>
>Dips are another one of those exercises that seem to lead to injury for
>a lot of people. I have no magic solution for you, I'm afraid -
>experiment with your technique and range of motion to find a good
>combination. As to pec development, I don't do dips so I won't give
>specifics but there are things you do with body lean that cause more or
>less pec involvement in dips. It makes sense to me that turning the
>exercise into more of a pushup or upsidedown bench press by leaning
>forward into it would somehow involve your pecs more. Perhaps someone
>else can explain in more detail.

No more detail needed. It's that simple.
 >> Stay informed about: bench press and overhead press question