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Timing Whey Protein, Carbs & Creatine: The Extended Study

 
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JMW

External


Since: Apr 15, 2006
Posts: 934



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:40 pm
Post subject: Timing Whey Protein, Carbs & Creatine: The Extended Study
Archived from groups: misc>fitness>weights (more info?)

For several years now, I have posted the results of a growing number
of studies which have shown that consumption of quickly absorbed
protein and highly glycemic carbohydrates near the time of heavy
resistance training will substantially increase muscle protein
synthesis. However, some folks have pissed and moaned that adequate
daily protein intake, whenever you want to consume it, will do the
same damn thing, and that studies of acute responses prove nothing.

Fine. Now we have at least one well-designed long-term (10 week)
study[1] which establishes exactly what I've been saying all along.

Subjects: 23 males, all "recreational" bodybuilders. All had trained
consistently (3-5 days/week) for at least six months. And just to be
sure the subjects were well trained, they participated in 8-12 weeks
of structured training before beginning the supplementation trial.
The subjects were matched for maximal bench press, squat, and
deadlift, then randomly assigned to two groups.

Supplement: A mix of 40g of whey, 43g of glucose, and 7g of creatine
monohydrate was used. Each subject got two doses per day of the mix,
in the amount of 1g/kg of body weight. One group (MORN-EVE) consumed
it in the morning and evening of each training day, at least five
hours away from training; the other group (PRE-POST) consumed it
immediately before and after training.

Diet: All subjects kept diet records. The total dietary consumption
of the two groups was pretty consistent (no significant differences)
as to total calories, carbohydrates, and protein, except that it's
worthwhile to note that the MORN-EVE group consumed about 10% *more*
total protein than the PRE-POST group.

Exercise Protocol: 4 times/week for 10 weeks. High intensity training
consisting primarily of compound lifts (bench press, squat, and
deadlift) with a lot of assistance/isolation exercises, mostly using
free weights.[2]

RESULTS

Body Composition: The PRE-POST group gained 2.3-3.0kg of lean body
mass and lost a few ounces of fat mass, whereas the MORN-EVE group
gained only 1.0-1.5kg of lean body mass, as well as gaining of a few
ounces of fat mass. Overall, the MORN-EVE group had an insignificant
reduction in body fat percentage, while the PRE-POST group had a
reduction in body fat of more than 1%.

Strength: The PRE-POST group gained about 12kg in 1RM bench press,
20kg in 1RM squat, and 18kg in deadlift. The MORN-EVE group gained
only about 8kg in 1RM bench press, 16kg in 1RM squat, and 15kg in
deadlift.

Muscle Composition: The PRE-POST group had increases in
cross-sectional area of type IIa and IIx (fast twitch) fibers of 25.0%
and 25.3%, respectively, as well as a 49.5% increase in contractile
proteins. The MORN-EVE group had increases in cross-sectional area of
type IIa and IIx fibers of only 17.0% and 17.7%, respectively, and a
26.3% increase in contractile proteins.

I think those are reasonably substantial numbers in support of timing
the intake of whey protein, highly glycemic carbohydrates, and
creatine.

[1] Cribb PJ, Hayes A. Effects of supplement timing and resistance
exercise on skeletal muscle hypertrophy. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2006
Nov;38(11):1918-25.

[2] Cribb PJ, Williams AD, Carey MF, Hayes A. The effect of whey
isolate and resistance training on strength, body composition, and
plasma glutamine. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2006 Oct;16:494-508

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EatMe

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Since: Feb 08, 2006
Posts: 109



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Timing Whey Protein, Carbs & Creatine: The Extended Study [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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JMW wrote:
> For several years now, I have posted the results of a growing number
> of studies which have shown that consumption of quickly absorbed
> protein and highly glycemic carbohydrates near the time of heavy
> resistance training will substantially increase muscle protein
> synthesis. However, some folks have pissed and moaned that adequate
> daily protein intake, whenever you want to consume it, will do the
> same damn thing, and that studies of acute responses prove nothing.
>
> Fine. Now we have at least one well-designed long-term (10 week)
> study[1] which establishes exactly what I've been saying all along.
>
> Subjects: 23 males, all "recreational" bodybuilders. All had trained
> consistently (3-5 days/week) for at least six months. And just to be
> sure the subjects were well trained, they participated in 8-12 weeks
> of structured training before beginning the supplementation trial.
> The subjects were matched for maximal bench press, squat, and
> deadlift, then randomly assigned to two groups.
>
> Supplement: A mix of 40g of whey, 43g of glucose, and 7g of creatine
> monohydrate was used. Each subject got two doses per day of the mix,
> in the amount of 1g/kg of body weight. One group (MORN-EVE) consumed
> it in the morning and evening of each training day, at least five
> hours away from training; the other group (PRE-POST) consumed it
> immediately before and after training.
>
> Diet: All subjects kept diet records. The total dietary consumption
> of the two groups was pretty consistent (no significant differences)
> as to total calories, carbohydrates, and protein, except that it's
> worthwhile to note that the MORN-EVE group consumed about 10% *more*
> total protein than the PRE-POST group.
>
> Exercise Protocol: 4 times/week for 10 weeks. High intensity training
> consisting primarily of compound lifts (bench press, squat, and
> deadlift) with a lot of assistance/isolation exercises, mostly using
> free weights.[2]
>
> RESULTS
>
> Body Composition: The PRE-POST group gained 2.3-3.0kg of lean body
> mass and lost a few ounces of fat mass, whereas the MORN-EVE group
> gained only 1.0-1.5kg of lean body mass, as well as gaining of a few
> ounces of fat mass. Overall, the MORN-EVE group had an insignificant
> reduction in body fat percentage, while the PRE-POST group had a
> reduction in body fat of more than 1%.
>
> Strength: The PRE-POST group gained about 12kg in 1RM bench press,
> 20kg in 1RM squat, and 18kg in deadlift. The MORN-EVE group gained
> only about 8kg in 1RM bench press, 16kg in 1RM squat, and 15kg in
> deadlift.
>
> Muscle Composition: The PRE-POST group had increases in
> cross-sectional area of type IIa and IIx (fast twitch) fibers of 25.0%
> and 25.3%, respectively, as well as a 49.5% increase in contractile
> proteins. The MORN-EVE group had increases in cross-sectional area of
> type IIa and IIx fibers of only 17.0% and 17.7%, respectively, and a
> 26.3% increase in contractile proteins.
>
> I think those are reasonably substantial numbers in support of timing
> the intake of whey protein, highly glycemic carbohydrates, and
> creatine.
>
> [1] Cribb PJ, Hayes A. Effects of supplement timing and resistance
> exercise on skeletal muscle hypertrophy. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2006
> Nov;38(11):1918-25.
>
> [2] Cribb PJ, Williams AD, Carey MF, Hayes A. The effect of whey
> isolate and resistance training on strength, body composition, and
> plasma glutamine. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2006 Oct;16:494-508

Nice. Article title please?

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EatMe

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Since: Feb 08, 2006
Posts: 109



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Timing Whey Protein, Carbs & Creatine: The Extended Study [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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JMW wrote:
> "EatMe" <trollsblow.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >JMW wrote:
> >>
> >> [1] Cribb PJ, Hayes A. Effects of supplement timing and resistance
> >> exercise on skeletal muscle hypertrophy. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2006
> >> Nov;38(11):1918-25.
> >
> >Nice. Article title please?
>
> See above. Footnote 1.

My bad- scanned too fast. Thanks!


I thought this subject, the part pertaining to carb+protein post
work-out had been covered 4-5 years ago on this group, i.e., protein
absorbtion is increased by the addition of carbs during the first
30-60 minutes following a work out. I guess we could decompose that
further into complex vs simple carbs and does the timing start at the
first rep vs the last.... Wink
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JMW

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Since: Apr 15, 2006
Posts: 934



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:48 pm
Post subject: Re: Timing Whey Protein, Carbs & Creatine: The Extended Study [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"EatMe" <trollsblow RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>JMW wrote:
>>
>> [1] Cribb PJ, Hayes A. Effects of supplement timing and resistance
>> exercise on skeletal muscle hypertrophy. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2006
>> Nov;38(11):1918-25.
>
>Nice. Article title please?

See above. Footnote 1.
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JMW

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Since: Apr 15, 2006
Posts: 934



(Msg. 5) Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Timing Whey Protein, Carbs & Creatine: The Extended Study [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"EatMe" <trollsblow.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>JMW wrote:
>> "EatMe" <trollsblow.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >JMW wrote:
>> >>
>> >> [1] Cribb PJ, Hayes A. Effects of supplement timing and resistance
>> >> exercise on skeletal muscle hypertrophy. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2006
>> >> Nov;38(11):1918-25.
>> >
>> >Nice. Article title please?
>>
>> See above. Footnote 1.
>
>My bad- scanned too fast. Thanks!
>
>
>I thought this subject, the part pertaining to carb+protein post
>work-out had been covered 4-5 years ago on this group, i.e., protein
>absorbtion is increased by the addition of carbs during the first
>30-60 minutes following a work out. I guess we could decompose that
>further into complex vs simple carbs and does the timing start at the
>first rep vs the last.... Wink

That's not really the subject, though. I posted something not long
ago which established that increased amino acid levels from whey plus
simple sugars begin almost immediately after consumption and peak in
about 30-45 minutes.

The real issue is one which has been going on for a number of years.
Some have consistently argued that timed increases in amino acid
levels don't make a difference, that adding plenty of daily dietary
protein will do the same thing, and that the many studies showing an
acute muscle protein synthesis response to increased amino acid levels
in conjunction with resistance training were meaningless in the long
run. Lyle argued that with me 3-4 years ago, and Andrzej continued
that argument just recently. The main thrust of their arguments was
that there were no studies showing a long-term benefit, as opposed to
just an acute response. Well, now there is.
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Joe Humble

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Since: Jul 09, 2005
Posts: 339



(Msg. 6) Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:17 am
Post subject: Re: Timing Whey Protein, Carbs & Creatine: The Extended Study [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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JMW

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Since: Apr 15, 2006
Posts: 934



(Msg. 7) Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:18 am
Post subject: Re: Timing Whey Protein, Carbs & Creatine: The Extended Study [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Joe Humble <joehumble DeleteThis @earthlink.net> wrote:

>On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 17:40:11 -0500, JMW
><jmwilliams DeleteThis @enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Supplement: A mix of 40g of whey, 43g of glucose, and 7g of creatine
>>monohydrate was used. Each subject got two doses per day of the mix,
>>in the amount of 1g/kg of body weight. One group (MORN-EVE) consumed
>>it in the morning and evening of each training day, at least five
>>hours away from training; the other group (PRE-POST) consumed it
>>immediately before and after training.
>
>So as a 190 lb male I'd get about 6.4 grams of creatine 2x a day? That
>seems excessive but perhaps I'm misinterpreting.

Seems a bit high to me, too. I would only use about half that much.
But also remember this is ONLY on resistance training days.
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Proctologically Violated©

External


Since: Nov 01, 2006
Posts: 123



(Msg. 8) Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:37 am
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"EatMe" <trollsblow.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1163901877.930008.274560@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> JMW wrote:
>> "EatMe" <trollsblow.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >JMW wrote:
>> >>
>> >> [1] Cribb PJ, Hayes A. Effects of supplement timing and resistance
>> >> exercise on skeletal muscle hypertrophy. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2006
>> >> Nov;38(11):1918-25.
>> >
>> >Nice. Article title please?
>>
>> See above. Footnote 1.
>
> My bad- scanned too fast. Thanks!

<MMMmmmmmm> <mmmmmMMM> <MMMmmmmmmmmmm> <gulp> <aaahhhhhh>
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs




>
>
> I thought this subject, the part pertaining to carb+protein post
> work-out had been covered 4-5 years ago on this group, i.e., protein
> absorbtion is increased by the addition of carbs during the first
> 30-60 minutes following a work out. I guess we could decompose that
> further into complex vs simple carbs and does the timing start at the
> first rep vs the last.... Wink
>
>
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padstyles

External


Since: Nov 14, 2006
Posts: 30



(Msg. 9) Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 5:47 am
Post subject: Re: Timing Whey Protein, Carbs & Creatine: The Extended Study [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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JMW wrote:

> I think those are reasonably substantial numbers in support of timing
> the intake of whey protein, highly glycemic carbohydrates, and
> creatine.

Good stuff. And all those folks, such as yourself, no doubt, who have
been following similar practices and seeing good gains are saying,
"Duh!"
ps
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Andrzej Rosa

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Since: Oct 29, 2005
Posts: 614



(Msg. 10) Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 10:24 am
Post subject: Re: Timing Whey Protein, Carbs & Creatine: The Extended Study [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Dnia 2006-11-19 JMW napisa³(a):
>
> The real issue is one which has been going on for a number of years.
> Some have consistently argued that timed increases in amino acid
> levels don't make a difference, that adding plenty of daily dietary
> protein will do the same thing, and that the many studies showing an
> acute muscle protein synthesis response to increased amino acid levels
> in conjunction with resistance training were meaningless in the long
> run. Lyle argued that with me 3-4 years ago, and Andrzej continued
> that argument just recently.

No, I didn't. I don't want to come back again to it, but we discussed
a very specific scenario.

> The main thrust of their arguments was
> that there were no studies showing a long-term benefit, as opposed to
> just an acute response. Well, now there is.

True.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
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JMW

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Since: Apr 15, 2006
Posts: 934



(Msg. 11) Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:48 am
Post subject: Re: Timing Whey Protein, Carbs & Creatine: The Extended Study [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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padstyles DeleteThis @yahoo.com wrote:
>
>JMW wrote:
>
>> I think those are reasonably substantial numbers in support of timing
>> the intake of whey protein, highly glycemic carbohydrates, and
>> creatine.
>
>Good stuff. And all those folks, such as yourself, no doubt, who have
>been following similar practices and seeing good gains are saying,
>"Duh!"

I notice that Lyle requested a copy of this article, and that one of
his flankies sent it to him.

No word yet on whether he acknowledges the findings.
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Proctologically Violated©

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Since: Nov 01, 2006
Posts: 123



(Msg. 12) Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 4:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Timing Whey Protein, Carbs & Creatine: The Extended Study [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Except there is one glaring error to your own conclusion.

While the study seems to show such an effect with pro+carb+creatine, how can
you assume what the effects would have been without the creatine?
Ditto aa's alone; carbs alone.

And here's another Q:
What basic physiological fact(s) fly in the face of these results? Not
challenging the results (beyond the above), just addressing some basic
physiological issues.

A third point:
How do you *explain* the fact that the pre-post group lost BF%, whilst the
morn-eve group gained?

Fourth:
What did they use to assess muscle increase, fat %?

Post the links to the articles?
--
------
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Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
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"JMW" <jmwilliams RemoveThis @enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote in message
news:s521m2d2mauaeclatgcvl744s23sic56md@4ax.com...
> padstyles RemoveThis @yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>JMW wrote:
>>
>>> I think those are reasonably substantial numbers in support of timing
>>> the intake of whey protein, highly glycemic carbohydrates, and
>>> creatine.
>>
>>Good stuff. And all those folks, such as yourself, no doubt, who have
>>been following similar practices and seeing good gains are saying,
>>"Duh!"
>
> I notice that Lyle requested a copy of this article, and that one of
> his flankies sent it to him.
>
> No word yet on whether he acknowledges the findings.
>
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JMW

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Posts: 934



(Msg. 13) Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 6:00 pm
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"Proctologically Violated©®" <entropic3.14decay.DeleteThis@optonline2.718.net>
wrote:
>
>Except there is one glaring error to your own conclusion.
>
>While the study seems to show such an effect with pro+carb+creatine, how can
>you assume what the effects would have been without the creatine?
>Ditto aa's alone; carbs alone.

As to carbs and EAAs, the studies abound as to their synergistic
effects, and several studies have clearly shown that their combined
effects are greater than either separately. Google my previous posts,
I've cited those studies before.

As to creatine, I use and recommend it anyway, so the addition of that
to the mix is not a big deal.

More importantly, the issue is timing. Both groups got the exact same
mixture of whey/glucose/creatine twice per day on training day, so
it's not an issue of who got what. It's all an issue of when it was
consumed.

>And here's another Q:
>What basic physiological fact(s) fly in the face of these results? Not
>challenging the results (beyond the above), just addressing some basic
>physiological issues.

If you've got some "facts" that somehow render the observed results
impossible or implausible, please feel free to explain.

>A third point:
>How do you *explain* the fact that the pre-post group lost BF%, whilst the
>morn-eve group gained?

Optimal nutrient partitioning.

>Fourth:
>What did they use to assess muscle increase, fat %?

Muscle biopsies and DEXA.

>Post the links to the articles?

If you don't have paid access to the online journals, you'll have to
fetch them at the library like I did.
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Proctologically Violated©

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Posts: 123



(Msg. 14) Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:16 pm
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"JMW" <jmwilliams DeleteThis @enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote in message
news:umn1m25oel34tfefhrvl8oif13ls5i3eon@4ax.com...
> "Proctologically Violated©®" <entropic3.14decay DeleteThis @optonline2.718.net>
> wrote:
>>
>>Except there is one glaring error to your own conclusion.
>>
>>While the study seems to show such an effect with pro+carb+creatine, how
>>can
>>you assume what the effects would have been without the creatine?
>>Ditto aa's alone; carbs alone.
>
> As to carbs and EAAs, the studies abound as to their synergistic
> effects, and several studies have clearly shown that their combined
> effects are greater than either separately. Google my previous posts,
> I've cited those studies before.
>
> As to creatine, I use and recommend it anyway, so the addition of that
> to the mix is not a big deal.

The thrust of the Q was aa's/carbs WITH creatine. Would the results have
been had no creatine been included?

>
> More importantly, the issue is timing. Both groups got the exact same
> mixture of whey/glucose/creatine twice per day on training day, so
> it's not an issue of who got what. It's all an issue of when it was
> consumed.

Well, the issue could very well be the "what" of the creatine.
Other than that, there is some rationale for nutrient timing, but perhaps
not of what this article speaks--at least not without creatine.

>
>>And here's another Q:
>>What basic physiological fact(s) fly in the face of these results? Not
>>challenging the results (beyond the above), just addressing some basic
>>physiological issues.
>
> If you've got some "facts" that somehow render the observed results
> impossible or implausible, please feel free to explain.

Later.

>
>>A third point:
>>How do you *explain* the fact that the pre-post group lost BF%, whilst the
>>morn-eve group gained?
>
> Optimal nutrient partitioning.

What is this, how does this work?

>
>>Fourth:
>>What did they use to assess muscle increase, fat %?
>
> Muscle biopsies and DEXA.

Which means they had to biopsy before and afterwards, proly at a few
different points, in various muscles. Would be interesting to see how they
did this, and how valid their counting of the differing muscle fibre types
really was.
DEXA for fat: DEXA is mostly for bone density, and I hear that it is
fairly dicey ito fat measurement, and varies w/ the operator, like skin
fold, etc. Fat in general is dicey to measure.
Also, you give values ito of ranges, instead of the more normal mean w/ std
deviation, r values, p values, etc. Is this your rendition, or did the
studies use these?
Also, altho the differences in the results look good ito of diffs by
themselves, when recorded as *fractional* improvement, w/ the assoc. std
dev/stats, results often appear statistically insignificant. Not saying
that is the case here, but that one can't tell w/o the data.
>
>>Post the links to the articles?
>
> If you don't have paid access to the online journals, you'll have to
> fetch them at the library like I did.

Hopefully not on Akron's time/dime.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs
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padstyles

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Since: Nov 14, 2006
Posts: 30



(Msg. 15) Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 10:18 pm
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JMW wrote:
> padstyles.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> >JMW wrote:
> >
> >> I think those are reasonably substantial numbers in support of timing
> >> the intake of whey protein, highly glycemic carbohydrates, and
> >> creatine.
> >
> >Good stuff. And all those folks, such as yourself, no doubt, who have
> >been following similar practices and seeing good gains are saying,
> >"Duh!"
>
> I notice that Lyle requested a copy of this article, and that one of
> his flankies sent it to him.
>
> No word yet on whether he acknowledges the findings.

Flankies. Haven't heard that one in a while. Who brought that into
the lexicon? It was a Schuh troll, wasn't it?
ps
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