Squat troubles.

Dnia 2007-02-13 Pete napisa³(a):
> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> schreef:
>
>> I discussed back squats. Oly lifters back squat by sitting in between
>> the legs, not by sitting back.
>
> Which is the right way to squat, as it completely fryes the quads.

I also happen to believe that it's actually the safest way to squat too.

>> Good. It's the right way of squatting (especially if you are a tall
>> guy with long legs).
>
> I always discourage people with long legs to squat. Really, i do.

I don't discourage anybody, but long limbed and short torsoed guys will
have more troubles with learning how to squat properly. Sometimes it
simply may not be worth it all though.

> I noticed that the best squatters always have short legs wrt the torso.
> No matter how tall they are. But short people have it more often then tall
> people.
>
> I consider myself lucky with my leg length at 6 feet. A lot of people as
> tall as me never get the sqaut down to a point.

I'm just 5'11", but I've long legs. I can't squat comfortably as low
as most Oly lifters can, but I'm working on it. I've no troubles with
what most people consider to be a full squat. All what you need is
flexibility, and this can be gained by working on your depth. My knees
do go past my toes as far as they want. I don't think about it, but I
checked that they can go past by maybe an inch or a bit more. As long
as one remains flat footed, they can't go forward all that much, even if
you try.

Anyway, I simply don't know how strong guys train on a leg press. I
may have some good leverages for this exercise, but I could workout
with full sled quite early in my "carrier". Full range of motion (till
I hit my ribcage) with feet around the center of the pad. Even when I
trained one leg at a time, my lower back still hurt from all this
weight pushing me into the seat. Squats were way less painful and more
fun.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

"John Hanson" <jhanson.DeleteThis@northernlinks.com> wrote in message
news:8gf2t2lja002njgh9a5lu6laauo5p5de3r@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 22:26:21 -0500, "Steve Freides"
> <steve.DeleteThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
>
>>
>>I think you're oversimplifying. Wearing Oly shoes is fine if your
>>squat
>>stance is that of an Oly lifter and we don't know what style the OP is
>>using, and even if he told us, we'd still be better off with a video
>>clip. If your squat stance is that of a PL'er, then Oly shoes aren't
>>the right thing.
>
> Not true. If you were to attend a meet put on by a real fed, you
> would see
> a lot of oly shoes as well as Crain and Safe shoes, which all have a
> significant heal to them. I personally squat in Crains and I squat
> fairly
> wide. I went wider tonight than I have been for the past year due to
> a
> knee problem and did an easy set of three at 485.

Some people think a real fed is where you can lift without being wrapped
up tighter than King Tut, John. Regardless, you lift in your fed and
I'll lift in mine, thank you very much. Boy, I know when you respond to
one of my messages, I'm in for it.

>>I squat Oly style because I like it and it feels good
>>to me, but if moving the most amount of weight was my primary concern,
>>I'd change my stance because you rarely see a successful PL'er squat
>>with an Oly style.
>
> Again not true. Look at Keith Belisle and Rob Wagner. Rob Wagner is
> one
> of the best squatters in ADFPA/USAPL history and he had a very narrow,
> high
> bar stance. He's squatted at least 782 at 198 which is pretty damned
> good
> with strict judging and drug testing. You see, when you actually have
> to
> break parallel, it's easier to do that with a narrower stance, which
> is why
> it is more popular in the IPF.
>
>> And if Oly shoes are good enough for Oly lifters,
>>they're good enough for me. While I can and do squat in Chuck
>>Taylors,
>>I have no need to reinvent the wheel and if I decide to squat in a
>>meet
>>again, it'll likely be in my Oly shoes.
>>
> You rarely see Chuck Taylors or Inzers in a USAPL/IPF meet. Jason
> being a
> notable exception (Inzer).

All exceptions that prove the rule, IMHO.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 09:45:07 -0500, "Steve Freides"
<steve RemoveThis @fridayscomputer.com> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>"John Hanson" <jhanson RemoveThis @northernlinks.com> wrote in message
>news:8gf2t2lja002njgh9a5lu6laauo5p5de3r@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 22:26:21 -0500, "Steve Freides"
>> <steve RemoveThis @fridayscomputer.com> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>I think you're oversimplifying. Wearing Oly shoes is fine if your
>>>squat
>>>stance is that of an Oly lifter and we don't know what style the OP is
>>>using, and even if he told us, we'd still be better off with a video
>>>clip. If your squat stance is that of a PL'er, then Oly shoes aren't
>>>the right thing.
>>
>> Not true. If you were to attend a meet put on by a real fed, you
>> would see
>> a lot of oly shoes as well as Crain and Safe shoes, which all have a
>> significant heal to them. I personally squat in Crains and I squat
>> fairly
>> wide. I went wider tonight than I have been for the past year due to
>> a
>> knee problem and did an easy set of three at 485.
>
>Some people think a real fed is where you can lift without being wrapped
>up tighter than King Tut, John. Regardless, you lift in your fed and
>I'll lift in mine, thank you very much. Boy, I know when you respond to
>one of my messages, I'm in for it.

We have a raw division now.

>
>>>I squat Oly style because I like it and it feels good
>>>to me, but if moving the most amount of weight was my primary concern,
>>>I'd change my stance because you rarely see a successful PL'er squat
>>>with an Oly style.
>>
>> Again not true. Look at Keith Belisle and Rob Wagner. Rob Wagner is
>> one
>> of the best squatters in ADFPA/USAPL history and he had a very narrow,
>> high
>> bar stance. He's squatted at least 782 at 198 which is pretty damned
>> good
>> with strict judging and drug testing. You see, when you actually have
>> to
>> break parallel, it's easier to do that with a narrower stance, which
>> is why
>> it is more popular in the IPF.
>>
>>> And if Oly shoes are good enough for Oly lifters,
>>>they're good enough for me. While I can and do squat in Chuck
>>>Taylors,
>>>I have no need to reinvent the wheel and if I decide to squat in a
>>>meet
>>>again, it'll likely be in my Oly shoes.
>>>
>> You rarely see Chuck Taylors or Inzers in a USAPL/IPF meet. Jason
>> being a
>> notable exception (Inzer).
>
>All exceptions that prove the rule, IMHO.
>
How so?
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

In article <emh4t2dc699ici24u5ol7qs1nln4eo2jg5.RemoveThis@4ax.com>,
John Hanson <jhanson.RemoveThis@northernlinks.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 09:45:07 -0500, "Steve Freides"
> <steve.RemoveThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
> >"John Hanson" <jhanson.RemoveThis@northernlinks.com> wrote in message
> >news:8gf2t2lja002njgh9a5lu6laauo5p5de3r@4ax.com...
> >> On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 22:26:21 -0500, "Steve Freides"
> >> <steve.RemoveThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>I think you're oversimplifying. Wearing Oly shoes is fine if your
> >>>squat
> >>>stance is that of an Oly lifter and we don't know what style the OP is
> >>>using, and even if he told us, we'd still be better off with a video
> >>>clip. If your squat stance is that of a PL'er, then Oly shoes aren't
> >>>the right thing.
> >>
> >> Not true. If you were to attend a meet put on by a real fed, you
> >> would see
> >> a lot of oly shoes as well as Crain and Safe shoes, which all have a
> >> significant heal to them. I personally squat in Crains and I squat
> >> fairly
> >> wide. I went wider tonight than I have been for the past year due to
> >> a
> >> knee problem and did an easy set of three at 485.
> >
> >Some people think a real fed is where you can lift without being wrapped
> >up tighter than King Tut, John. Regardless, you lift in your fed and
> >I'll lift in mine, thank you very much. Boy, I know when you respond to
> >one of my messages, I'm in for it.
>
> We have a raw division now.

USAPL or IPF?

Heck, now I'm getting the itch again!

--
Keith
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 08:05:14 -0600, Hobbes <khobman800.DeleteThis@yahoo.com>
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>In article <emh4t2dc699ici24u5ol7qs1nln4eo2jg5.DeleteThis@4ax.com>,
> John Hanson <jhanson.DeleteThis@northernlinks.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 09:45:07 -0500, "Steve Freides"
>> <steve.DeleteThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>> >"John Hanson" <jhanson.DeleteThis@northernlinks.com> wrote in message
>> >news:8gf2t2lja002njgh9a5lu6laauo5p5de3r@4ax.com...
>> >> On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 22:26:21 -0500, "Steve Freides"
>> >> <steve.DeleteThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>I think you're oversimplifying. Wearing Oly shoes is fine if your
>> >>>squat
>> >>>stance is that of an Oly lifter and we don't know what style the OP is
>> >>>using, and even if he told us, we'd still be better off with a video
>> >>>clip. If your squat stance is that of a PL'er, then Oly shoes aren't
>> >>>the right thing.
>> >>
>> >> Not true. If you were to attend a meet put on by a real fed, you
>> >> would see
>> >> a lot of oly shoes as well as Crain and Safe shoes, which all have a
>> >> significant heal to them. I personally squat in Crains and I squat
>> >> fairly
>> >> wide. I went wider tonight than I have been for the past year due to
>> >> a
>> >> knee problem and did an easy set of three at 485.
>> >
>> >Some people think a real fed is where you can lift without being wrapped
>> >up tighter than King Tut, John. Regardless, you lift in your fed and
>> >I'll lift in mine, thank you very much. Boy, I know when you respond to
>> >one of my messages, I'm in for it.
>>
>> We have a raw division now.
>
>USAPL or IPF?
>
>Heck, now I'm getting the itch again!

USAPL for sure. I'm not sure about the IPF.
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

Dnia 2007-02-14 Shute napisa³(a):
> On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 10:43:21 +0000 (UTC), Andrzej Rosa
><bakters RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Anyway, I simply don't know how strong guys train on a leg press. I
>>may have some good leverages for this exercise, but I could workout
>>with full sled quite early in my "carrier". Full range of motion (till
>>I hit my ribcage) with feet around the center of the pad. Even when I
>>trained one leg at a time, my lower back still hurt from all this
>>weight pushing me into the seat. Squats were way less painful and more
>>fun.
>
> I suspect most of them are not strong using the leg press. I needed
> to cut my weight in half when I moved to real squats. Guys think
> they are strong do partial reps with 500 lbs on a leg press.

I wouldn't call a guy who uses 500 lbs for full range of motion strong.
In my first gym, where there were several guys who actually had a leg
day, they added extra bars on top of regular ones, so you could load
twice the amount of what normally went there. The strongest guy used
all that full, and a guy sitting on top of it all for some show-off
partials.

> I saw a
> guy once with 14 plates on there. I mentioned something to him about
> it and he complained he still couldn't make his legs grow.

Although, if one knows what he's doing, leg presses will put muscles on
ones legs. Pudz preferred them and must have had a way of making this
exercise work. I switched to squats before I learned what to do with
it, but it's possible to have a good workout with less weight. I think
that Pete must be right (again) about feet placement he recommends.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

Dnia 2007-02-15 Shute napisa³(a):
> On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:30:49 +0000 (UTC), Andrzej Rosa
><bakters DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>I wouldn't call a guy who uses 500 lbs for full range of motion strong.
>>In my first gym, where there were several guys who actually had a leg
>>day, they added extra bars on top of regular ones, so you could load
>>twice the amount of what normally went there. The strongest guy used
>>all that full, and a guy sitting on top of it all for some show-off
>>partials.
>
> But they THINK they are strong. I saw a few giving me looks when I
> was learning to squat because I wasn't using much weight. Yet I knew
> I could match them on the leg press. Same with the guys doing the
> partials. I threw on an extra 40 lbs the other day doing partials.
>
> How much can your leg presses hold?

I haven't seen one for quite a while. I vaguely recall that it was
something like 200kg per side, but I'm not sure. It was rarely used,
and ever rarer it was used full. I once did it, just to make myself
feel better, after one guy told me that the biggest guy in the gym
a day before trained legs and loaded it full. He trained behind the
neck presses with 150kg, he looked very big, he was cut, but a weakling
like me could probably match his leg press, and even skinner guy could
most probably out-deadlift the living hell out of him. Must be
sacroplasms, or something.

> I suspect ours could go up to
> 2000 lbs although you would have a long hike to get the extra weight.

That "customised" one in my first gym could maybe go up that high, but
it was over a decade ago, so it's just a guess.

>>Although, if one knows what he's doing, leg presses will put muscles on
>>ones legs. Pudz preferred them and must have had a way of making this
>>exercise work. I switched to squats before I learned what to do with
>>it, but it's possible to have a good workout with less weight. I think
>>that Pete must be right (again) about feet placement he recommends.
>
> Well I think learning to squat was a challenge in itself which helped
> get my body into better shape. My legs are now fitter and stronger.
> I feel the difference when I do cardio. Leg presses allow you to
> work the legs even if your underlying body structure is weak.

And you don't have to take a hike to get required plates.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

In article <f1umt29pvaluumji60q5sk83g5t59h844o RemoveThis @4ax.com>,
Shute <Shute RemoveThis @nowhere.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:42:17 +0000 (UTC), Andrzej Rosa
> <bakters RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Dnia 2007-02-15 Shute napisa?(a):
> >> On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:30:49 +0000 (UTC), Andrzej Rosa
> >><bakters RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>I wouldn't call a guy who uses 500 lbs for full range of motion strong.
> >>>In my first gym, where there were several guys who actually had a leg
> >>>day, they added extra bars on top of regular ones, so you could load
> >>>twice the amount of what normally went there. The strongest guy used
> >>>all that full, and a guy sitting on top of it all for some show-off
> >>>partials.
> >>
> >> But they THINK they are strong. I saw a few giving me looks when I
> >> was learning to squat because I wasn't using much weight. Yet I knew
> >> I could match them on the leg press. Same with the guys doing the
> >> partials. I threw on an extra 40 lbs the other day doing partials.
> >>
> >> How much can your leg presses hold?
> >
> >I haven't seen one for quite a while. I vaguely recall that it was
> >something like 200kg per side, but I'm not sure. It was rarely used,
> >and ever rarer it was used full. I once did it, just to make myself
> >feel better, after one guy told me that the biggest guy in the gym
> >a day before trained legs and loaded it full. He trained behind the
> >neck presses with 150kg, he looked very big, he was cut, but a weakling
> >like me could probably match his leg press, and even skinner guy could
> >most probably out-deadlift the living hell out of him. Must be
> >sacroplasms, or something.
>
> I don't fully know the deal with muscle verse strength ratio. I could
> have kept lifting with standard bodybuilding routines and kept
> growing. But it is embarrassing to see some skinny kid next to me
> grab heavier dumbells for the same lift.
>
> From what I read it is as safety mechanism. A body will go for the
> smallest motor units first and then call on more as needed.
> Powerlfiting can train your body to go for the larger motor units
> right away.
>
> I am curious if in an emergency type situation the larger guy could
> exhibit a much greater strength. For instance say someone was trapped
> under a fallen steel beam. Could the weaker guy with the bigger
> muscles get the beam up easier? That is one thing I like about the
> strongman competitions. Not knowing what your dealing with adds a
> whole new element to game.

There is much more to strength than simply the size principle and
inhibition. Theoretically the larger muscle belly is stronger, but there
are other factors at work. Often what we see as a powerlifters strength
are really highly skilled motor patterns.

--
Keith
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

Dnia 2007-02-20 Shute napisa³(a):
> On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:42:17 +0000 (UTC), Andrzej Rosa
><bakters.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Dnia 2007-02-15 Shute napisa?(a):
>>> But they THINK they are strong. I saw a few giving me looks when I
>>> was learning to squat because I wasn't using much weight. Yet I knew
>>> I could match them on the leg press. Same with the guys doing the
>>> partials. I threw on an extra 40 lbs the other day doing partials.
>>>
>>> How much can your leg presses hold?
>>
>>I haven't seen one for quite a while. I vaguely recall that it was
>>something like 200kg per side, but I'm not sure. It was rarely used,
>>and ever rarer it was used full. I once did it, just to make myself
>>feel better, after one guy told me that the biggest guy in the gym
>>a day before trained legs and loaded it full. He trained behind the
>>neck presses with 150kg, he looked very big, he was cut, but a weakling
>>like me could probably match his leg press, and even skinner guy could
>>most probably out-deadlift the living hell out of him. Must be
>>sacroplasms, or something.
>
> I don't fully know the deal with muscle verse strength ratio. I could
> have kept lifting with standard bodybuilding routines and kept
> growing. But it is embarrassing to see some skinny kid next to me
> grab heavier dumbells for the same lift.

It could be that the "skinny kid" has higher "training age" than you
do, so he's trained his body to lift heavy to a higher degree that you
did. Besides that, there are some age related changes which make us
slower as we age. Speed and strength are related, so this could be a
factor too.

> From what I read it is as safety mechanism. A body will go for the
> smallest motor units first and then call on more as needed.
> Powerlfiting can train your body to go for the larger motor units
> right away.

Maybe not smaller or bigger, but lower and higher threshold motor
units.

> I am curious if in an emergency type situation the larger guy could
> exhibit a much greater strength. For instance say someone was trapped
> under a fallen steel beam. Could the weaker guy with the bigger
> muscles get the beam up easier?

Maybe. If his body is trained in lifting heavy, he will have higher
chance of lifting the beam up. Bigger guy would have higher chance of
lifting the beam several times, because size helps more with repetitive
effort.

> That is one thing I like about the
> strongman competitions. Not knowing what your dealing with adds a
> whole new element to game.

You mean chance?

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles.