Squat troubles.

Dnia 2007-02-12 Elflord napisa³(a):
> On 2007-02-12, Andrzej Rosa <bakters.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Dnia 2007-02-12 Elflord napisa³(a):
>>>
>>> Your calves shouldn't stretch when you squat. You should feel your hamstrings
>>> stretching, not your calves. If you find this happening, it's probably
>>> because you're not "sitting back" into the movement.
>>
>> You aren't saying that all Oly lifters don't know how to squat
>> "correctly", are you?
>
> This muddies the issue a bit because the front squat tends to move weight more
> forward, *and* oly lifters often squat from very deep. So correct form calls
> for knees going forward a little. Even with these, calf flexibility shouldn't
> make it outright impossible unless going *really* deep. If it becomes a problem
> the usual solution is to elevate the heels slightly.

Front squats demand less ankle flexibility than Oly style, high bar
back squats, but some people simply don't have any ankle flexibility.
I know. I've seen it.

> But in my opinion, discussing front squat form of olympic lifters is a
> distraction.

I discussed back squats. Oly lifters back squat by sitting in between
the legs, not by sitting back.

> This guy is not an olympic lifter doing front squats, he appears
> to be a relative beginner doing back squats. Therefore, I orient my comments to
> that which is relevant to beginners doing back squats, even if it is not the
> best advice for olympic lifters doing front squats! Besides, other posters have
> already done a fine job of giving correct but in my opinion not terribly
> relevant advice in this thread.
>
> Everything I've seen of beginners trying to squat tells me that it's simply
> much more likely that he is back-squatting with incorrect form (as most
> beginners do) than it is that his ankle flexibility is a problem (it seldom
> is -- ham and groin flexibility are a bigger problem for inflexible lifters --
> groin flexibility is an issue even with front squats as you pointed out)

You may be right, but OP pointed to his ankles as the problem zone. I tend
to think that he may be actually right.

> In particular, I suspect that his knees are shooting way forward and his back
> is dead upright (AGAIN, beginners do this all the time)

Good. It's the right way of squatting (especially if you are a tall
guy with long legs).

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

On 2007-02-12, Andrzej Rosa <bakters DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:

> You may be right, but OP pointed to his ankles as the problem zone. I tend
> to think that he may be actually right.

he might be. It's all theory until we hear more from him.

>> In particular, I suspect that his knees are shooting way forward and his back
>> is dead upright (AGAIN, beginners do this all the time)
>
> Good. It's the right way of squatting (especially if you are a tall
> guy with long legs).

I am, and I still don't find my knees shooting way forward (-; But it's
definitely trickier for tall guys to squat. Tall beginners often look really
awkward.

Cheers,
--
Elflord
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

Dnia 2007-02-12 Elflord napisa³(a):
> On 2007-02-12, Andrzej Rosa <bakters RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> You may be right, but OP pointed to his ankles as the problem zone. I tend
>> to think that he may be actually right.
>
> he might be. It's all theory until we hear more from him.
>
>>> In particular, I suspect that his knees are shooting way forward and his back
>>> is dead upright (AGAIN, beginners do this all the time)
>>
>> Good. It's the right way of squatting (especially if you are a tall
>> guy with long legs).
>
> I am, and I still don't find my knees shooting way forward (-;

So you are doing half squats (or we simply mean a bit different things
by "knees shooting way forward). If you do full squats from an
athletic stance (jump up, where you land is your athletic stance) and
have long legs, your knees will go past your toes. If you squat with a
wide stance and have short legs (long torso), your shins will remain
almost vertical throughout a move, especially because you'll do a half
squat this way.

> But it's
> definitely trickier for tall guys to squat. Tall beginners often look really
> awkward.

True. And some people simply can't squat well. They theoretically
could, but in practice it doesn't work for them.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

Brett wrote:

> Hello all.
>
> I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in my
> ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the downward
> motion or roll onto the balls of my feet.
[...]

Plank, board, work boots, Olympic plates under your heels, etc. If
you're rolling forward onto the balls of your feet then, yes, raising
your heels wouldn't be a bad thing. Otoh, flexibility work
encompassing your legs to hips wouldn't be a bad idea either.

Best of luck.

--
Curt
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

On Feb 12, 6:57 pm, "Steve Freides" <s....RemoveThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
> "bc_fitness" <bc_fitness_nott....RemoveThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1171313278.962712.187860@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Feb 12, 6:46 am, "Steve Freides" <s....RemoveThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
> >> "Brett" <brett.du....RemoveThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> >>news:Xns98D4D74303923vr4@216.196.97.136...
>
> >> > Hello all.
>
> >> > I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in
> >> > my
> >> > ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the
> >> > downward
> >> > motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to lurch
> >> > forward
> >> > and generally have an unsteady base.
>
> >> > A little backround. As a child I walked on the balls of my feet
> >> > instead of
> >> > heel to toe. This caused may calves to be large and strong. I am
> >> > able to
> >> > do what seems like infinite calf raises with all the weight on a
> >> > machine.
> >> > I believe this calf devolopement without range of motion is the
> >> > cause
> >> > of my
> >> > lack of flexibility. (though I lack it to some degree nearly
> >> > everywhere
> >> > else also)
>
> >> > Will I be able to ever squat correctly? I am worried this
> >> > situation
> >> > is
> >> > simmiliar to someone who curls without range of motion that seems
> >> > to
> >> > have
> >> > trouble straightening their arms. Should I just keep trying to
> >> > stretch my
> >> > calves?
>
> >> > Thanks in advance for any insight you may provide.
>
> >> Have you tried squatting in a shoe with a heel? Shoes made for
> >> Olympic
> >> lifters might be worth a try for you, or even just a solid work boot.
> >> It would help to know your athletic goals for yourself overall, and
> >> for
> >> your squatting in particular, e.g., if you're a powerlifter using a
> >> wide
> >> stance, then the raised heel is probably not the best way to go, but
> >> if
> >> you're squatting relatively narrow stance, they might help.
>
> >> Of course, continuing to stretch is good. There are many stretching
> >> techniques, so you might want to do some reading on that subject,
> >> e.g.,
> >> a web search on "pnf stretching" yielded some interesting hits just
> >> now.
> >> I learned most of what I know about stretching from this book if
> >> you're
> >> interested:http://www.kbnj.com/ris.htm
>
> >> Last but not least, getting into the bottom position of squat
> >> requires
> >> more than just ankle and calf flexibility; a lot of hip flexibility,
> >> some hamstring flexibility, and a strong, stable back is required.
> >> Be
> >> sure you aren't neglecting any of those things either.
>
> >> Best of luck.
>
> >> -S-http://www.kbnj.com
>
> > Back when I was doing squats, flatter shoes helped me, because I found
> > that running shoes pitched me forward a bit.
>

Yup. I wasn't implying that running shoes are like lifting shoes. I
was saying they pitched me forward uncomfortably.

> Running shoes are _not_ like Olympic shoes - the fact that both have a
> raised heel is about the only similarity between the two. The Olympic
> shoe has much more in common with a Chuck Taylor than with a running
> shoe.

Me too. Chuck Taylors have good karma too.

>
> Personally, I don't find squatting in Oly lifting shoes a whole lot
> different than squatting in Chuck Taylors. I don't squat wide, and the
> whole idea that the raised heel in an Oly shoe somehow stresses the
> knees more seems often blown way out of proportion to me. The knee
> stress will depend much more on form, build, the weight, and a lot of
> other things, and the heel in the shoe matters much less than any of
> those things.
>
> > I was tempted to suggest
> > to the OP that he could use boards under his heels, but really, the
> > best idea would seem to be that he work on that calf flexibility.
>
> Boards under the heels are risky - you can slip, the board can slip,
> etc. Anyone interested ought to just spend the $100 and get a pair of
> Oly lifting shoes.

Yes. Something I should have mentioned. Boards are not a good
answer. I was thinking of it as an attempt to squat with his tight
calves until such time as he could stretch them out enough to squat w/
o the boards.

>
> > As to the comment that he should use the leg press because it works
> > the same muscles anyway, I simply don't agree. You can use it to get
> > a good calf stretch though, so he could leg press for quads and butt
> > and do calf stretches on it between sets by scooting his feet down to
> > the bottom of the foot plate until his heels hang off and letting the
> > weights stretch his calves, one at a time if necessary. I think the
> > goal should be to get to squats in the end however.
>
> The leg press simply is the wrong choice for most things for most people
> most of the time.

Just say no to leg press, leg extensions, and Smith machines.
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

On Feb 11, 10:09 pm, Brett <brett.du....TakeThisOut@comcast.net> wrote:
> Hello all.
>
> I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in my
> ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the downward
> motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to lurch forward
> and generally have an unsteady base.
>
> A little backround. As a child I walked on the balls of my feet instead of
> heel to toe. This caused may calves to be large and strong. I am able to
> do what seems like infinite calf raises with all the weight on a machine.
> I believe this calf devolopement without range of motion is the cause of my
> lack of flexibility. (though I lack it to some degree nearly everywhere
> else also)
>

No, calf development shouldn't affect ankle flexibility.

> Will I be able to ever squat correctly? I am worried this situation is
> simmiliar to someone who curls without range of motion that seems to have
> trouble straightening their arms. Should I just keep trying to stretch my
> calves?
>

Which is it? Calves or ankles? Or is it actually your Achilles tendon
that's the problem? In any case, squat stretches might help. Do a
squat without any weight, not even the bar. Hang onto something if you
need to in order to keep your balance. Go as low as you can, and stay
there for at least 30 seconds. Repeat. Often.
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

On 2007-02-12, Andrzej Rosa <bakters RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:

> So you are doing half squats (or we simply mean a bit different things
> by "knees shooting way forward). If you do full squats from an

I can do slightly below parallel. I do need a reasonably wide stance to avoid
knees going some way past toes though. I prefer this anyway -- my knees seem
to have trouble with narrower stances (e.g. the classic "bodybuilding squat").

I can do full, but then my back starts to round near the bottom, so I prefer
not to (I don't have huge calves, so full for me is some way past parallel)

Cheers,
--
Elflord
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

"bc_fitness" <bc_fitness_notthis DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1171313278.962712.187860@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 12, 6:46 am, "Steve Freides" <s... DeleteThis @fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>> "Brett" <brett.du... DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote in message
>>
>> news:Xns98D4D74303923vr4@216.196.97.136...
>>
>>
>>
>> > Hello all.
>>
>> > I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in
>> > my
>> > ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the
>> > downward
>> > motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to lurch
>> > forward
>> > and generally have an unsteady base.
>>
>> > A little backround. As a child I walked on the balls of my feet
>> > instead of
>> > heel to toe. This caused may calves to be large and strong. I am
>> > able to
>> > do what seems like infinite calf raises with all the weight on a
>> > machine.
>> > I believe this calf devolopement without range of motion is the
>> > cause
>> > of my
>> > lack of flexibility. (though I lack it to some degree nearly
>> > everywhere
>> > else also)
>>
>> > Will I be able to ever squat correctly? I am worried this
>> > situation
>> > is
>> > simmiliar to someone who curls without range of motion that seems
>> > to
>> > have
>> > trouble straightening their arms. Should I just keep trying to
>> > stretch my
>> > calves?
>>
>> > Thanks in advance for any insight you may provide.
>>
>> Have you tried squatting in a shoe with a heel? Shoes made for
>> Olympic
>> lifters might be worth a try for you, or even just a solid work boot.
>> It would help to know your athletic goals for yourself overall, and
>> for
>> your squatting in particular, e.g., if you're a powerlifter using a
>> wide
>> stance, then the raised heel is probably not the best way to go, but
>> if
>> you're squatting relatively narrow stance, they might help.
>>
>> Of course, continuing to stretch is good. There are many stretching
>> techniques, so you might want to do some reading on that subject,
>> e.g.,
>> a web search on "pnf stretching" yielded some interesting hits just
>> now.
>> I learned most of what I know about stretching from this book if
>> you're
>> interested:http://www.kbnj.com/ris.htm
>>
>> Last but not least, getting into the bottom position of squat
>> requires
>> more than just ankle and calf flexibility; a lot of hip flexibility,
>> some hamstring flexibility, and a strong, stable back is required.
>> Be
>> sure you aren't neglecting any of those things either.
>>
>> Best of luck.
>>
>> -S-http://www.kbnj.com
>
> Back when I was doing squats, flatter shoes helped me, because I found
> that running shoes pitched me forward a bit.

Running shoes are _not_ like Olympic shoes - the fact that both have a
raised heel is about the only similarity between the two. The Olympic
shoe has much more in common with a Chuck Taylor than with a running
shoe.

Personally, I don't find squatting in Oly lifting shoes a whole lot
different than squatting in Chuck Taylors. I don't squat wide, and the
whole idea that the raised heel in an Oly shoe somehow stresses the
knees more seems often blown way out of proportion to me. The knee
stress will depend much more on form, build, the weight, and a lot of
other things, and the heel in the shoe matters much less than any of
those things.

> I was tempted to suggest
> to the OP that he could use boards under his heels, but really, the
> best idea would seem to be that he work on that calf flexibility.

Boards under the heels are risky - you can slip, the board can slip,
etc. Anyone interested ought to just spend the $100 and get a pair of
Oly lifting shoes.

> As to the comment that he should use the leg press because it works
> the same muscles anyway, I simply don't agree. You can use it to get
> a good calf stretch though, so he could leg press for quads and butt
> and do calf stretches on it between sets by scooting his feet down to
> the bottom of the foot plate until his heels hang off and letting the
> weights stretch his calves, one at a time if necessary. I think the
> goal should be to get to squats in the end however.

The leg press simply is the wrong choice for most things for most people
most of the time.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

"Bully" <bully19 RemoveThis @proteinbars.co.ok> wrote in
news:53b9iqF1s2ervU1@mid.individual.net:

> In news:Xns98D4D74303923vr4@216.196.97.136,
> Brett <brett.dugan RemoveThis @comcast.net> typed:
>> Hello all.
>>
>> I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in my
>> ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the
>> downward motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to
>> lurch forward and generally have an unsteady base.
>
> Is this with or without a weight on your back? If with, what happens
> when you squat without a weight?
>
>
> [...]
>
>

That was with some weight. Without weight I do a lot better - heels
slightly of the ground. I also noticed that other areas that people have
been mentioning (groin, quad, hamstring) get tight and stop my motion prior
to anywhere near parallel. I am also knock kneed? When I put my legs
together my feet are about 6" apart. So it is dificult to do the goblin?
squat from the Dan John video. (elbows inside knees pressing out) Not sure
if this if affecting things. Also I am a novice - lifted 20 years ago in
high school. I need to catch up the rest of my body to my legs in general.
I just would like to be able to squat correctly when the time comes.

brett
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 22:26:21 -0500, "Steve Freides"
<steve.RemoveThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:


>
>I think you're oversimplifying. Wearing Oly shoes is fine if your squat
>stance is that of an Oly lifter and we don't know what style the OP is
>using, and even if he told us, we'd still be better off with a video
>clip. If your squat stance is that of a PL'er, then Oly shoes aren't
>the right thing.

Not true. If you were to attend a meet put on by a real fed, you would see
a lot of oly shoes as well as Crain and Safe shoes, which all have a
significant heal to them. I personally squat in Crains and I squat fairly
wide. I went wider tonight than I have been for the past year due to a
knee problem and did an easy set of three at 485.

>I squat Oly style because I like it and it feels good
>to me, but if moving the most amount of weight was my primary concern,
>I'd change my stance because you rarely see a successful PL'er squat
>with an Oly style.

Again not true. Look at Keith Belisle and Rob Wagner. Rob Wagner is one
of the best squatters in ADFPA/USAPL history and he had a very narrow, high
bar stance. He's squatted at least 782 at 198 which is pretty damned good
with strict judging and drug testing. You see, when you actually have to
break parallel, it's easier to do that with a narrower stance, which is why
it is more popular in the IPF.

> And if Oly shoes are good enough for Oly lifters,
>they're good enough for me. While I can and do squat in Chuck Taylors,
>I have no need to reinvent the wheel and if I decide to squat in a meet
>again, it'll likely be in my Oly shoes.
>
You rarely see Chuck Taylors or Inzers in a USAPL/IPF meet. Jason being a
notable exception (Inzer).
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

On 12 Feb 2007 18:51:19 -0800, "geek_girl" <sarah.brilliant.DeleteThis@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Feb 11, 10:09 pm, Brett <brett.du....DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Hello all.
>>
>> I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in my
>> ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the downward
>> motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to lurch forward
>> and generally have an unsteady base.
>>
>> A little backround. As a child I walked on the balls of my feet instead of
>> heel to toe. This caused may calves to be large and strong. I am able to
>> do what seems like infinite calf raises with all the weight on a machine.
>> I believe this calf devolopement without range of motion is the cause of my
>> lack of flexibility. (though I lack it to some degree nearly everywhere
>> else also)
>>
>
>No, calf development shouldn't affect ankle flexibility.
>
>> Will I be able to ever squat correctly? I am worried this situation is
>> simmiliar to someone who curls without range of motion that seems to have
>> trouble straightening their arms. Should I just keep trying to stretch my
>> calves?
>>
>
>Which is it? Calves or ankles? Or is it actually your Achilles tendon
>that's the problem? In any case, squat stretches might help. Do a
>squat without any weight, not even the bar. Hang onto something if you
>need to in order to keep your balance. Go as low as you can, and stay
>there for at least 30 seconds. Repeat. Often.

Good stuff.
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

"Elflord" <abuse.TakeThisOut@aol.com> schreef:

>> I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in my
>> ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the
>> downward
>> motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to lurch
>> forward
>> and generally have an unsteady base.

> Your calves shouldn't stretch when you squat. You should feel your
> hamstrings
> stretching, not your calves. If you find this happening, it's probably
> because
> you're not "sitting back" into the movement.

When you squat OL style the knees go forward, and the calf stretches a bit.

> Try squatting in such a way that your knees don't drift forward past your
> toes.

PL style?

> It's great that you have huge calves, and it shouldn't affect your
> squatting.
> Some of the best squatters have really big calves.

Really?

--
Pete
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

"Elflord" <abuse DeleteThis @aol.com> schreef:

>> Rather unlikely that someone with tight calves would have trouble with
>> their knees coming too far forward.

> If calves are a limiting factor, his knees are probably coming forward.

I hate to say it, but fair is fair.

I think Freides is actually right. Global warming at his best?

--
Pete
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles.