Squat troubles.

In news:Xns98D4D74303923vr4@216.196.97.136,
Brett <brett.dugan.RemoveThis@comcast.net> typed:
> Hello all.
>
> I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in my
> ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the
> downward motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to
> lurch forward and generally have an unsteady base.
>
> A little backround. As a child I walked on the balls of my feet
> instead of heel to toe. This caused may calves to be large and
> strong. I am able to do what seems like infinite calf raises with
> all the weight on a machine. I believe this calf devolopement without
> range of motion is the cause of my lack of flexibility. (though I
> lack it to some degree nearly everywhere else also)
>
> Will I be able to ever squat correctly? I am worried this situation
> is simmiliar to someone who curls without range of motion that seems
> to have trouble straightening their arms. Should I just keep trying
> to stretch my calves?
>
> Thanks in advance for any insight you may provide.
>
> brett

Take a look at
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-6529481301858251744&q=dan+john+squat !

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

"Brett" <brett.dugan.RemoveThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Xns98D4D74303923vr4@216.196.97.136...
> Hello all.
>
> I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in my
> ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the
> downward
> motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to lurch
> forward
> and generally have an unsteady base.
>
> A little backround. As a child I walked on the balls of my feet
> instead of
> heel to toe. This caused may calves to be large and strong. I am
> able to
> do what seems like infinite calf raises with all the weight on a
> machine.
> I believe this calf devolopement without range of motion is the cause
> of my
> lack of flexibility. (though I lack it to some degree nearly
> everywhere
> else also)
>
> Will I be able to ever squat correctly? I am worried this situation
> is
> simmiliar to someone who curls without range of motion that seems to
> have
> trouble straightening their arms. Should I just keep trying to
> stretch my
> calves?
>
> Thanks in advance for any insight you may provide.

Have you tried squatting in a shoe with a heel? Shoes made for Olympic
lifters might be worth a try for you, or even just a solid work boot.
It would help to know your athletic goals for yourself overall, and for
your squatting in particular, e.g., if you're a powerlifter using a wide
stance, then the raised heel is probably not the best way to go, but if
you're squatting relatively narrow stance, they might help.

Of course, continuing to stretch is good. There are many stretching
techniques, so you might want to do some reading on that subject, e.g.,
a web search on "pnf stretching" yielded some interesting hits just now.
I learned most of what I know about stretching from this book if you're
interested: http://www.kbnj.com/ris.htm

Last but not least, getting into the bottom position of squat requires
more than just ankle and calf flexibility; a lot of hip flexibility,
some hamstring flexibility, and a strong, stable back is required. Be
sure you aren't neglecting any of those things either.

Best of luck.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

"Steve Freides" <steve RemoveThis @fridayscomputer.com> schreef:

> Have you tried squatting in a shoe with a heel? Shoes made for Olympic
> lifters might be worth a try for you, or even just a solid work boot. It
> would help to know your athletic goals for yourself overall, and for your
> squatting in particular, e.g., if you're a powerlifter using a wide
> stance, then the raised heel is probably not the best way to go...

If he would have squat like a PLer, his problem shouldnt be a problem.

--
Pete
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

On 2007-02-12, Brett <brett.dugan.RemoveThis@comcast.net> wrote:
> Hello all.
>
> I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in my
> ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the downward
> motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to lurch forward
> and generally have an unsteady base.

Your calves shouldn't stretch when you squat. You should feel your hamstrings
stretching, not your calves. If you find this happening, it's probably because
you're not "sitting back" into the movement.

Try squatting in such a way that your knees don't drift forward past your
toes.

It's great that you have huge calves, and it shouldn't affect your squatting.
Some of the best squatters have really big calves.

Cheers,
--
Elflord
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

On Feb 12, 6:46 am, "Steve Freides" <s....TakeThisOut@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
> "Brett" <brett.du....TakeThisOut@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:Xns98D4D74303923vr4@216.196.97.136...
>
>
>
> > Hello all.
>
> > I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in my
> > ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the
> > downward
> > motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to lurch
> > forward
> > and generally have an unsteady base.
>
> > A little backround. As a child I walked on the balls of my feet
> > instead of
> > heel to toe. This caused may calves to be large and strong. I am
> > able to
> > do what seems like infinite calf raises with all the weight on a
> > machine.
> > I believe this calf devolopement without range of motion is the cause
> > of my
> > lack of flexibility. (though I lack it to some degree nearly
> > everywhere
> > else also)
>
> > Will I be able to ever squat correctly? I am worried this situation
> > is
> > simmiliar to someone who curls without range of motion that seems to
> > have
> > trouble straightening their arms. Should I just keep trying to
> > stretch my
> > calves?
>
> > Thanks in advance for any insight you may provide.
>
> Have you tried squatting in a shoe with a heel? Shoes made for Olympic
> lifters might be worth a try for you, or even just a solid work boot.
> It would help to know your athletic goals for yourself overall, and for
> your squatting in particular, e.g., if you're a powerlifter using a wide
> stance, then the raised heel is probably not the best way to go, but if
> you're squatting relatively narrow stance, they might help.
>
> Of course, continuing to stretch is good. There are many stretching
> techniques, so you might want to do some reading on that subject, e.g.,
> a web search on "pnf stretching" yielded some interesting hits just now.
> I learned most of what I know about stretching from this book if you're
> interested:http://www.kbnj.com/ris.htm
>
> Last but not least, getting into the bottom position of squat requires
> more than just ankle and calf flexibility; a lot of hip flexibility,
> some hamstring flexibility, and a strong, stable back is required. Be
> sure you aren't neglecting any of those things either.
>
> Best of luck.
>
> -S-http://www.kbnj.com

Back when I was doing squats, flatter shoes helped me, because I found
that running shoes pitched me forward a bit. I was tempted to suggest
to the OP that he could use boards under his heels, but really, the
best idea would seem to be that he work on that calf flexibility.

As to the comment that he should use the leg press because it works
the same muscles anyway, I simply don't agree. You can use it to get
a good calf stretch though, so he could leg press for quads and butt
and do calf stretches on it between sets by scooting his feet down to
the bottom of the foot plate until his heels hang off and letting the
weights stretch his calves, one at a time if necessary. I think the
goal should be to get to squats in the end however.
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

"Elflord" <abuse.DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote in message
news:slrnet14di.sg2.abuse@panix3.panix.com...
> On 2007-02-12, Brett <brett.dugan.DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Hello all.
>>
>> I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in my
>> ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the
>> downward
>> motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to lurch
>> forward
>> and generally have an unsteady base.
>
> Your calves shouldn't stretch when you squat. You should feel your
> hamstrings
> stretching, not your calves. If you find this happening, it's probably
> because
> you're not "sitting back" into the movement.
>
> Try squatting in such a way that your knees don't drift forward past
> your
> toes.
>
> It's great that you have huge calves, and it shouldn't affect your
> squatting.
> Some of the best squatters have really big calves.

Rather unlikely that someone with tight calves would have trouble with
their knees coming too far forward.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

In news:Xns98D4D74303923vr4@216.196.97.136,
Brett <brett.dugan.RemoveThis@comcast.net> typed:
> Hello all.
>
> I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in my
> ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the
> downward motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to
> lurch forward and generally have an unsteady base.

Is this with or without a weight on your back? If with, what happens when
you squat without a weight?


[...]


--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

Dnia 2007-02-12 Elflord napisa³(a):
> On 2007-02-12, Brett <brett.dugan.DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Hello all.
>>
>> I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in my
>> ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the downward
>> motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to lurch forward
>> and generally have an unsteady base.
>
> Your calves shouldn't stretch when you squat. You should feel your hamstrings
> stretching, not your calves. If you find this happening, it's probably because
> you're not "sitting back" into the movement.

You aren't saying that all Oly lifters don't know how to squat
"correctly", are you?

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

Dnia 2007-02-12 Brett napisa³(a):
> Hello all.
>
> I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in my
> ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the downward
> motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to lurch forward
> and generally have an unsteady base.
>
> A little backround. As a child I walked on the balls of my feet instead of
> heel to toe. This caused may calves to be large and strong. I am able to
> do what seems like infinite calf raises with all the weight on a machine.
> I believe this calf devolopement without range of motion is the cause of my
> lack of flexibility. (though I lack it to some degree nearly everywhere
> else also)

You need to improve it. Try a calf stretching machine. Some people
call it simply a step. Do work on range of motion during your calf
raises.

> Will I be able to ever squat correctly?

Probably yes, if you'll work on it.

> I am worried this situation is
> simmiliar to someone who curls without range of motion that seems to have
> trouble straightening their arms. Should I just keep trying to stretch my
> calves?

Yes. And groin.

> Thanks in advance for any insight you may provide.

Do what Shute did. He started to do a bodyweight goblet squat. Try
front squats or Zercher squats and see if you can do them properly.
Try powerlifting low bar, wide stance, sit back squats to see if you
can do them properly. You probably can't, but your groin flexibility
will be a limiting factor there. Or simply work on your front squats
in tandem with some sort of deadlifts. Elevate your heels a bit (a
plank should work fine there) if other options fail.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

On 2007-02-12, Andrzej Rosa <bakters.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dnia 2007-02-12 Elflord napisa³(a):
>> On 2007-02-12, Brett <brett.dugan.RemoveThis@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> Hello all.
>>>
>>> I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in my
>>> ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the downward
>>> motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to lurch forward
>>> and generally have an unsteady base.
>>
>> Your calves shouldn't stretch when you squat. You should feel your hamstrings
>> stretching, not your calves. If you find this happening, it's probably
>> because you're not "sitting back" into the movement.
>
> You aren't saying that all Oly lifters don't know how to squat
> "correctly", are you?

This muddies the issue a bit because the front squat tends to move weight more
forward, *and* oly lifters often squat from very deep. So correct form calls
for knees going forward a little. Even with these, calf flexibility shouldn't
make it outright impossible unless going *really* deep. If it becomes a problem
the usual solution is to elevate the heels slightly.

But in my opinion, discussing front squat form of olympic lifters is a
distraction. This guy is not an olympic lifter doing front squats, he appears
to be a relative beginner doing back squats. Therefore, I orient my comments to
that which is relevant to beginners doing back squats, even if it is not the
best advice for olympic lifters doing front squats! Besides, other posters have
already done a fine job of giving correct but in my opinion not terribly
relevant advice in this thread.

Everything I've seen of beginners trying to squat tells me that it's simply
much more likely that he is back-squatting with incorrect form (as most
beginners do) than it is that his ankle flexibility is a problem (it seldom
is -- ham and groin flexibility are a bigger problem for inflexible lifters --
groin flexibility is an issue even with front squats as you pointed out)

In particular, I suspect that his knees are shooting way forward and his back
is dead upright (AGAIN, beginners do this all the time)

Cheers,
--
Elflord
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

"Elflord" <abuse.RemoveThis@aol.com> wrote in message
news:slrnet1k01.mu5.abuse@panix3.panix.com...
> On 2007-02-12, Andrzej Rosa <bakters.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Dnia 2007-02-12 Elflord napisa³(a):
>>> On 2007-02-12, Brett <brett.dugan.RemoveThis@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> Hello all.
>>>>
>>>> I need some advice on squating. I seem to lack the flexibility in
>>>> my
>>>> ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have to stop the
>>>> downward
>>>> motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to lurch
>>>> forward
>>>> and generally have an unsteady base.
>>>
>>> Your calves shouldn't stretch when you squat. You should feel your
>>> hamstrings
>>> stretching, not your calves. If you find this happening, it's
>>> probably
>>> because you're not "sitting back" into the movement.
>>
>> You aren't saying that all Oly lifters don't know how to squat
>> "correctly", are you?
>
> This muddies the issue a bit because the front squat tends to move
> weight more
> forward, *and* oly lifters often squat from very deep. So correct form
> calls
> for knees going forward a little. Even with these, calf flexibility
> shouldn't
> make it outright impossible unless going *really* deep. If it becomes
> a problem
> the usual solution is to elevate the heels slightly.
>
> But in my opinion, discussing front squat form of olympic lifters is a
> distraction. This guy is not an olympic lifter doing front squats, he
> appears
> to be a relative beginner doing back squats. Therefore, I orient my
> comments to
> that which is relevant to beginners doing back squats, even if it is
> not the
> best advice for olympic lifters doing front squats! Besides, other
> posters have
> already done a fine job of giving correct but in my opinion not
> terribly
> relevant advice in this thread.
>
> Everything I've seen of beginners trying to squat tells me that it's
> simply
> much more likely that he is back-squatting with incorrect form (as
> most
> beginners do) than it is that his ankle flexibility is a problem (it
> seldom
> is -- ham and groin flexibility are a bigger problem for inflexible
> lifters --
> groin flexibility is an issue even with front squats as you pointed
> out)
>
> In particular, I suspect that his knees are shooting way forward and
> his back
> is dead upright (AGAIN, beginners do this all the time)

Olympic lifters practice the back squat, bar high, knees coming forward
somewhat over the toes.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

On 2007-02-12, Steve Freides <steve.DeleteThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:

> Rather unlikely that someone with tight calves would have trouble with
> their knees coming too far forward.

If calves are a limiting factor, his knees are probably coming forward. Unless
of being borderline crippled, he is physically capable of moving his knees past
his toes.

Cheers,
--
Elflord
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles. 

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:06:17 +0000 (UTC), Andrzej Rosa
<bakters RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote:


>Do what Shute did. He started to do a bodyweight goblet squat. Try
>front squats or Zercher squats and see if you can do them properly.
>Try powerlifting low bar, wide stance, sit back squats to see if you
>can do them properly. You probably can't, but your groin flexibility
>will be a limiting factor there. Or simply work on your front squats
>in tandem with some sort of deadlifts. Elevate your heels a bit (a
>plank should work fine there) if other options fail.

I never squatted OLY style and I never elevated my heels via a plank
or sneakers with a heel. I only wore Chuck Ts to the gym.

Although I have read contrasting opinions about heel raising via a
block or something else, most of what I've read advises against this
practice. I am not saying doing this is absolutely wrong because I
doubt there are absolutes with respect to individual needs.

Both you and Steve have suggested that one option for the OP might be
to raise his heels (with Steve saying that raised heels may not be
appropriate if he is lifting PL-ing style with a wide stance.)

The OP wrote:
>"Iseem to lack the flexibility in my ankles to squat safely. I reach a point where I have
>to stop the downward motion or roll onto the balls of my feet. This causes me to lurch
>forward and generally have an unsteady base.

Let's assume that this guy with flexibility limitations is not
squatting OLY-style. Wouldn't elevating his heels be an inadvisable
solution to balance/flexibility problems? Wouldn't doing this
increase the forward travel of his knees, increase knee stress, and
put excessive stress on his lower back?

In addition to advising him not to descend past the point where his
back rounds - I don't know how far one is supposed to descend if one's
back rounds during a squat....maybe 2" above that point? - this guy
should, among other things, increase the flexibility of his Achilles
tendons. Shouldn't he work on this and avoid doing weighted squats
until he has developed enough ankle flexibility?
 >> Stay informed about: Squat troubles.