Shoulder / Military Press proportion to Bench Press

"Jason Carlton" <jwcarlton.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:95faa625-c3d8-425b-a664-7240152c1596@m62g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>I was talking to a friend today (my old lifting buddy that now lives
> in another county), and he sort of made me feel like I'm not doing
> heavy enough weight on shoulder presses in proportion to my other
> upper body exercises. So I'm curious, is there some sort of guideline
> about what the proportions should be?
>
> Currently, on my chest day I do an 8/6/4 pyramid on the bench, at
> 305/325/345 (meaning, I do 345lbs for 4 reps). On my shoulder day, I
> do 3 sets of 10 pull ups, followed by an 8/6/4 pyramid of shoulder
> presses (using an Olympic bar) at 125/135/145.
>
> I follow that with bent over rows and shrugs, but that's not really
> relevant to the question.
>
> Is shoulder pressing 145x4 drastically out of proportion to a bench of
> 345x4?
>
> - Jason

Take a look at this chart
Weightlifting Performance Standard Tables
http://www.crossfit.com/cf-journal/WLSTANDARDS.pdf
 >> Stay informed about: Shoulder / Military Press proportion to Bench Press 

"Jason Carlton" <jwcarlton RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c5c4bb3c-1c37-449a-98d4-38c2faa415bc@j20g2000hsi.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 7, 3:18 am, "ATP*" <waxwingsl... RemoveThis @azurepane.com> wrote:
> "Jason Carlton" <jwcarl... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:95faa625-c3d8-425b-a664-7240152c1596@m62g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> >I was talking to a friend today (my old lifting buddy that now lives
> > in another county), and he sort of made me feel like I'm not doing
> > heavy enough weight on shoulder presses in proportion to my other
> > upper body exercises. So I'm curious, is there some sort of guideline
> > about what the proportions should be?
>
> > Currently, on my chest day I do an 8/6/4 pyramid on the bench, at
> > 305/325/345 (meaning, I do 345lbs for 4 reps). On my shoulder day, I
> > do 3 sets of 10 pull ups, followed by an 8/6/4 pyramid of shoulder
> > presses (using an Olympic bar) at 125/135/145.
>
> > I follow that with bent over rows and shrugs, but that's not really
> > relevant to the question.
>
> > Is shoulder pressing 145x4 drastically out of proportion to a bench of
> > 345x4?
>
> > - Jason
>
> Take a look at this chart
> Weightlifting Performance Standard
> Tableshttp://www.crossfit.com/cf-journal/WLSTANDARDS.pdf- Hide quoted
> text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


That is EXACTLY what I've been looking for, thanks! I'm assuming, of
course, that when it simply says "Press" that it means Shoulder Press
(or Military Press; I haven't figured out the difference yet).

I guess he was right. I weigh in at 185, and I'm well over the Elite
range listed on Bench Press. But my Shoulder Press is barely over the
Intermediate range.

I'm going to give this some thought. Don't be surprised if I come back
asking for advice in a couple of days.

Thanks again, man, seriously.

Jason

You're welcome. But with that kind of bench at a BW of 185 I'm going to be
asking you for advice:-)
I'd be careful about trying to increase that shoulder press too fast. Look
into the pros and cons of seated vs. standing presses. I think standing is
better for you.
 >> Stay informed about: Shoulder / Military Press proportion to Bench Press 

On Feb 7, 1:00 am, Jason Carlton <jwcarl....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was talking to a friend today (my old lifting buddy that now lives
> in another county), and he sort of made me feel like I'm not doing
> heavy enough weight on shoulder presses in proportion to my other
> upper body exercises. So I'm curious, is there some sort of guideline
> about what the proportions should be?

Check out http://www.t-nation.com/article/bodybuilding/how_much_can_you_lift_wim...r=bodyb
for a rough idea.

> Currently, on my chest day I do an 8/6/4 pyramid on the bench, at
> 305/325/345 (meaning, I do 345lbs for 4 reps). On my shoulder day, I
> do 3 sets of 10 pull ups, followed by an 8/6/4 pyramid of shoulder
> presses (using an Olympic bar) at 125/135/145.
>
> I follow that with bent over rows and shrugs, but that's not really
> relevant to the question.

My 1RM max on the free-weight barbell flat bench is 335-lbs. However,
my 1RM on the deadlift and squat is only 315-lbs. (the squat's
actually gone done, even, possibly due to my taking up jogging again
-- ??)...though I do have a herniated disc and so am really
conservative about adding on more weight too fast...and I'd also just
adopted those two movements last summer, for the first time ever.

> Is shoulder pressing 145x4 drastically out of proportion to a bench of
> 345x4?

Yeah, I'd say you might try increasing the poundage, if you have no
shoulder issues. I work with 185-lbs. myself on the few occasions
when I do the freeweight barbell military press to the front, and have
actually done a 1RM of 225-lbs. a few times in the distant past.

> - Jason
 >> Stay informed about: Shoulder / Military Press proportion to Bench Press 

"Jason Carlton" <jwcarlton RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:95faa625-c3d8-425b-a664-7240152c1596@m62g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>I was talking to a friend today (my old lifting buddy that now lives
> in another county), and he sort of made me feel like I'm not doing
> heavy enough weight on shoulder presses in proportion to my other
> upper body exercises. So I'm curious, is there some sort of guideline
> about what the proportions should be?
>
> Currently, on my chest day I do an 8/6/4 pyramid on the bench, at
> 305/325/345 (meaning, I do 345lbs for 4 reps). On my shoulder day, I
> do 3 sets of 10 pull ups, followed by an 8/6/4 pyramid of shoulder
> presses (using an Olympic bar) at 125/135/145.
>
> I follow that with bent over rows and shrugs, but that's not really
> relevant to the question.
>
> Is shoulder pressing 145x4 drastically out of proportion to a bench of
> 345x4?
>
> - Jason

Here's another list of lifts:

http://www.ironsports.tv/hwgdami.htm

I'll echo the sentiment to be careful about not overdoing it. Most
people focus on bench _or_ overhead and don't try to make a lot of
progress on both.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com
 >> Stay informed about: Shoulder / Military Press proportion to Bench Press 

On Feb 7, 10:09 pm, I <prisoner_at_....DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hehe..."while all but the very weak can squat their own bodyweight, only a few have yet managed to squat
> much more than three times their bodyweight in strict form. Squatting one's bodyweight is, however, commonplace."


Sigh...that should read, of course, "squatting *twice* one's
bodyweight"....
 >> Stay informed about: Shoulder / Military Press proportion to Bench Press 

> You're welcome. But with that kind of bench at a BW of 185 I'm going to be
> asking you for advice:-)

Bench press has always been easy for me. I came back to lifting 14
months ago after a 10 year break, and went from 185x4 to 345x4 in that
14 month time frame.

On my chest day, I do the 8/6/4 pyramid that I talked about, followed
by 3 sets of 8 (the same 8 that I do in the pyramid), followed by
bench flyes. So here was my workout on Monday:

PYRAMID
8 x 305
6 x 325
4 x 345

SETS
3 sets of 305x8

FLYES
3 sets of 45x10 (45 in each hand; I could easily do more weight, but
this is all I have for my dumbbells)

When I do the pyramid, the weight will generally last for 3 weeks. The
first week, I can't quite complete the set of 4. The second week, I
can do all 4, but not a 5th. The third week, I should be able to do 5,
and then I know it's time to increase the weight. So on the 4th week,
I go up by 10lbs.

The 3 sets of 8 is always the same weight as the 8 in the pyramid, so
when I go up in the pyramid, I automatically go up there, too.

Every once in awhile, I'll hit a plateau that takes 4 weeks to break,
but for the most part I can go up after 3 weeks. My goal is to break
525x1 by the end of this year; that was Franco Columbu's original
record, and since he and I would have been in the same weight class
that's become my target. It hardly means anything in this day, with
records over 1000lbs, but it still means something to me

- J
 >> Stay informed about: Shoulder / Military Press proportion to Bench Press 

On Feb 8, 11:46 am, Tom Anderson <t....TakeThisOut@urchin.earth.li> wrote:
>
>
> Dude! I'm EXACTLY the same! Well, maybe not exactly. But i've found
> shoulder presses to be my slowest-improving lift. This means i half hate
> them, because it's so frustrating, and half love them, because it's so
> rewarding when i do move up in weight.

Well, this is why they add so much salt in them sweet cookies, too!
Probably why people still bother with politics even though everyone
agrees that politicians are just liars and crooks.

> I think there's a lot more technique to shoulder presses than bench
> presses, which means you don't just need to get stronger muscles, you need
> to hold it together in terms of coordination too, which is slower coming.
> That could be bullshit, though.

I think you're right this time (hehehe) because them O-lifters do a
kinda-sorta shoulder press on the jerk (not really, but kinda-sorta)
and it ain't about muscles as much as coordination.

> tom
>
> --
> Next issue - Nigel and the slavegirls ... or, why capitalism can never
> work!
 >> Stay informed about: Shoulder / Military Press proportion to Bench Press 

Tom Anderson wrote:

> On Thu, 7 Feb 2008, Jason Carlton wrote:
>
> I think there's a lot more technique to shoulder presses than bench
> presses, which means you don't just need to get stronger muscles, you need
> to hold it together in terms of coordination too, which is slower coming.

Explode from the bottom and drive your head under the bar fast. Don't use
leg drive as long as you want to call it a military press. If you want to
prioritize this lift, do it. I mean start your pressing training with it,
not finish it with it. Let your bench take a back sit for a while. As an
assistance exercise do behind the neck jerks and overhead squats. They will
improve your flexibility, which after all this benching is probably typically
bad. Depending where you tend to fail (I suspect that it is a bottom
position for you) you may want to finish your training with moving a bar from
your chest, just over your head to resting behind your neck and back again.
Doing push presses will teach you how to use speed, if this is a limiting
factor.

> That could be bullshit, though.

Overhead press was an Olympic lift once. People really knew how to do it.

--
Andrzej Rosa
 >> Stay informed about: Shoulder / Military Press proportion to Bench Press 

"Jason Carlton" <jwcarlton.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:458f8ccd-733b-4eec-a6c9-e05c9338c3fc@e4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>> You're welcome. But with that kind of bench at a BW of 185 I'm going to
>> be
>> asking you for advice:-)
>
> Bench press has always been easy for me. I came back to lifting 14
> months ago after a 10 year break, and went from 185x4 to 345x4 in that
> 14 month time frame.
>
> On my chest day, I do the 8/6/4 pyramid that I talked about, followed
> by 3 sets of 8 (the same 8 that I do in the pyramid), followed by
> bench flyes. So here was my workout on Monday:
>
> PYRAMID
> 8 x 305
> 6 x 325
> 4 x 345
>
> SETS
> 3 sets of 305x8
>
> FLYES
> 3 sets of 45x10 (45 in each hand; I could easily do more weight, but
> this is all I have for my dumbbells)
>
> When I do the pyramid, the weight will generally last for 3 weeks. The
> first week, I can't quite complete the set of 4. The second week, I
> can do all 4, but not a 5th. The third week, I should be able to do 5,
> and then I know it's time to increase the weight. So on the 4th week,
> I go up by 10lbs.
>
> The 3 sets of 8 is always the same weight as the 8 in the pyramid, so
> when I go up in the pyramid, I automatically go up there, too.
>
> Every once in awhile, I'll hit a plateau that takes 4 weeks to break,
> but for the most part I can go up after 3 weeks. My goal is to break
> 525x1 by the end of this year; that was Franco Columbu's original
> record, and since he and I would have been in the same weight class
> that's become my target. It hardly means anything in this day, with
> records over 1000lbs, but it still means something to me
>
> - J

That's great progress. I wouldn't worry about the records. I've shifted to
benching on a slight incline, reportedly easier on the rotator cuffs.
 >> Stay informed about: Shoulder / Military Press proportion to Bench Press 

On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, Andrzej Rosa wrote:

> Tom Anderson wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 7 Feb 2008, Jason Carlton wrote:
>>
>> I think there's a lot more technique to shoulder presses than bench
>> presses, which means you don't just need to get stronger muscles, you need
>> to hold it together in terms of coordination too, which is slower coming.
>
> Explode from the bottom and drive your head under the bar fast.

I do it with dumbbells.

I'm not sure about the exploding, either; when i fail, it's with my upper
arms a little above horizontal, or further towards the end, rather than at
the start.

> Don't use leg drive as long as you want to call it a military press.

Hell no!

> If you want to prioritize this lift, do it. I mean start your pressing
> training with it, not finish it with it. Let your bench take a back sit
> for a while.

That's exactly what i do; it's the second big lift i do in my workout,
after rows, with bench presses coming dead last.

Oh wait, you're addressing that to Jason, aren't you? Never mind.

> As an assistance exercise do behind the neck jerks and overhead squats.
> They will improve your flexibility, which after all this benching is
> probably typically bad.

Hmm.

>> That could be bullshit, though.
>
> Overhead press was an Olympic lift once. People really knew how to do it.

Well, they certainly knew how to push their luck with it - that's why it
got dropped!

tom

--
Plus, you gotta understand I can now type far, far faster than I can
think. This is not boasting - its admitting a personal tragedy. -- D
 >> Stay informed about: Shoulder / Military Press proportion to Bench Press 

Dnia 2008-02-09 Tom Anderson napisa³(a):
> On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
>
>> Explode from the bottom and drive your head under the bar fast.
>
> I do it with dumbbells.
>
> I'm not sure about the exploding, either; when i fail, it's with my upper
> arms a little above horizontal, or further towards the end, rather than at
> the start.

It will still help with moving bigger dumbbells up. Also, you may find
that if you use speed, more natural position will be with dumbbells held
more forward than to the sides, a bit like kettlebell jerk. But for
pure bodybuilding purposes it is probably better to use slower speed.

>> Don't use leg drive as long as you want to call it a military press.
>
> Hell no!

Why "Hell no!"? What's wrong with a push-press?

[...]
>> As an assistance exercise do behind the neck jerks and overhead squats.
>> They will improve your flexibility, which after all this benching is
>> probably typically bad.
>
> Hmm.

Side press works well too (with an eye on a bent-press).

>>> That could be bullshit, though.
>>
>> Overhead press was an Olympic lift once. People really knew how to do it.
>
> Well, they certainly knew how to push their luck with it - that's why it
> got dropped!

Not really. They dropped it, because there was no way to keep judging
consistent and without it this event would deteriorate into some sort of
jerk. There was already an event like this, so they simply dropped the
press.

Funny enough, amount of injuries went up. People stopped pressing, so
they had weaker shoulders and higher snatches (pressing and snatching
don't mix well). I read that in effect the amount of shoulder injuries
went clearly up.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: Shoulder / Military Press proportion to Bench Press 

> Ach, you know what you should have gotten -- a power rack!  I don't
> know why that equipment isn't as much emphasized, since it's often
> much safer than a spotter!  If you still have any room in your place,
> get a power rack.  Then you can train heavy as well as solo!

I'm not sure what the difference is between a Smith machine and a
power rack, so I may have misspoken. I can't imagine that there's
anything simpler than what I use, though; it doesn't have individual
tabs or anything like that, it's just a freeweight bar with safeties
at the bottom.

The model is a Club Weider 565, and when I searched for "power rack"
on Google Images, what I found looks a lot more like what I use than
when I searched for Smith machine. So, I guess I'm using a power rack,
but it's identical to what we used in high school for squats and
called a Smith machine! LOL

Of course, my coach was an idiot, so it fits.


> As for females, I've never had a problem with them spotting me.  It
> really doesn't take too much to spot someone -- a nudge past the
> sticking point is often all that's needed.  Of course, training to
> failure requires a very strong and competent spotter, but for most
> movements, there are still ways to wiggle yourself out of a
> predicament when you're totally out of gas...main thing, though -- get
> a power rack, or trade in the Smith for the power rack (if you're
> really itchin' to go heavy).

Well, "female" is different from "girlfriend". In this case, no matter
how hard I try, she can't seem to grasp the concept that breathing and
focus is important! Just before lifting, I take 3 deep breaths, and on
the 4th I push up while breathing out; but she has a habit of blowing
back in face because she thinks it's cute, and while it is, it could
also kill me

- J
 >> Stay informed about: Shoulder / Military Press proportion to Bench Press 

On Feb 11, 6:38 am, Jason Carlton <jwcarl....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I'm not sure what the difference is between a Smith machine and a
> power rack, so I may have misspoken. I can't imagine that there's
> anything simpler than what I use, though; it doesn't have individual
> tabs or anything like that, it's just a freeweight bar with safeties
> at the bottom.

Eh? Sounds like you might have a power rack already, then!

Here are, respectively, photos of a power rack and a Smith Machine:

http://www.pacillo.com/products/tds_power_rack_b.jpg

http://www.pro-fitness.com/catalog/pix.php?i=18


Of course, there exist fancier versions, but those are the basic
structures involved...the Smith Machine has vertical "rail tracks" on
either side for smooth lifting, whereas a power rack is totally free-
weight. That means that with a Smith Machine, your range of motion or
ROM is set for you, but the weight is stabilized (and therefore
noticeably easier to lift), but with a power rack, the only thing it
does for you is provide safety pins on either side to catch the weight
should you fail (provided the pins are set at an appropriate height,
of course).

> The model is a Club Weider 565, and when I searched for "power rack"
> on Google Images, what I found looks a lot more like what I use than
> when I searched for Smith machine. So, I guess I'm using a power rack,
> but it's identical to what we used in high school for squats and
> called a Smith machine! LOL

I tried googling images for it but came up empty -- guess it's been
discontinued. The Club Weiders I found looked like flimsy Walmart
kind of equipment, though. Ultimately, if you're satisfied with what
you have, hey, it works for you. No real arguing with that!

> Of course, my coach was an idiot, so it fits.

Many coaches don't really know sports training, they just do it for
the extra cash. That was the way with my high school track coach, Mr.
Armstrong. He was a Republican teaching social studies (USAUSAUSA)
and he coached track by telling us to run, timing us, and showing up
for meets. That's it. The golf teacher, Mr. Oilman, at least drove
us to the golf course. No, I didn't win any medals whatever.

> Well, "female" is different from "girlfriend". In this case, no matter
> how hard I try, she can't seem to grasp the concept that breathing and
> focus is important! Just before lifting, I take 3 deep breaths, and on
> the 4th I push up while breathing out; but she has a habit of blowing
> back in face because she thinks it's cute, and while it is, it could
> also kill me

"Blowing back in face"? You mean purposely breathing on you?

Yeah, I suppose that can be annoying. I myself have to spot in a
different way than most people since I am such a sweat-hog that I rain
on people! So I don't look down at them, and have to be especially
sensitive to their needs through other cues besides visual ones
("aaaaarrrrrgggghhh!"). But it's actually helped me to be a better
spotter, I think: I don't get nervous when I see them struggling and
jump in too quick or too much, and I adopt a tae kwon do-style "horse
stance" which is probably better in terms of physical leverage and my
bad back, too.

> - J
 >> Stay informed about: Shoulder / Military Press proportion to Bench Press