Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps

"Stephan Carydakis" <steph777.RemoveThis@nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote in message
news:eoph2q$1nk1$1@otis.netspace.net.au...
>
> "Steve Freides" <steve.RemoveThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote in message
> news:519p0dF1j94keU1@mid.individual.net...
>> "Stephan Carydakis" <steph777.RemoveThis@nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote in
>> message
>> news:eomool$1195$1@otis.netspace.net.au...
>> > Hi All,
>> >
>> > I trust everyone is happy and healthy-ish?
>> >
>> > I have changed a couple of things in my training over the past
>> > couple
>> > of
>> > months to included weighted dips and hammer curls. I have begun to
>> > experience sharp pain in both elbows (particularly right) and at
>> > the
>> > distal
>> > end of the biceps (particularly left) kind of underneath the
>> > biceps. I
>> > have
>> > had a slack 3 weeks with 1 week totally off for rest. The elbow
>> > pain
>> > is the
>> > same type of pain I experienced about 12 years ago when I was a
>> > professional
>> > musician (bass player). I completed over 1250 gigs during a 5.5
>> > year
>> > period
>> > and developed a RSI injury. Eventually, I couldn't even hold the
>> > phone
>> > for
>> > more than 20 or 30 seconds (I'm that bad at the moment). The biceps
>> > pain I
>> > have not experienced before. During my last massage, my masseuse
>> > got
>> > right
>> > in to the distal end of the left biceps and it was extremely
>> > painful
>> > to say
>> > the least. It did subside after massage.
>> >
>> > The biceps pain started as the type of pain that I could 'warmup'
>> > through
>> > (it used to subside) however this week I had to stop hammer curls
>> > after just
>> > the second set. My elbows seem to have worsened over the past 2
>> > weeks
>> > and
>> > especially this week after doing weighted dips 2 days ago. Even
>> > sitting here
>> > and occasionally lifting my coffee causes a sharp but bearable pain
>> > on
>> > the
>> > outside of my right elbow.
>> >
>> > Are these signs of over-training or over-ageing? Are they tendon or
>> > attachment etc type strains? Should I reduce the weights I'm using
>> > for
>> > a
>> > while?
>>
>> Yet another calm, cool, collected discussion on mfw, I see.
>>
>> Stop doing what you recently added and see if your conditions
>> improve -
>> common sense, nothing more. There are substitutes and work-arounds
>> for
>> everything and I'm sure you'll find some. A good idea, IMHO, might
>> be
>> to start back only with pullups and avoid the dips once your symptoms
>> disappear - try for a lot of short sets rather than long ones, and
>> minimize the rest periods to give yourself whatever total volume
>> you're
>> after - again, to minimize the possibility of reinjury. Generally
>> speaking, dips are more problematic for most people than pullups
>> although it's possible that dips will work for you and pullups will
>> not - only time and some careful experimentation will tell. With
>> pullups, try various grips - pronated, supinated, and neutral - as
>> well
>> as various grip widths to find what your elbows like best, and try to
>> keep a mix of them in your training if you can.
>>
>> Good luck.
>>
>
> Food for thought...I have not considered changing grips before. I'll
> certainly try that. With dips, I am only doing 5 sets of 5 but with
> 30kg so
> this may be putting undue strain on elbows? Pull ups are similar
> weight but
> I'm doing greater reps in the 10 and 8 range.

Dips are one of those things that, for some people, can result in injury
even with bodyweight. It is far from the ideal exercise for most people
for that reason.

Pullups with bw + 30 kg for 8-10 reps? That's quite an achievement for
most people. While it's possible (I could do it w/ a little training -
I've done bw + 100 lbs. for a single), I'll believe it when I see the
video tape you put on YouTube showing you doing this. Call me a
skeptic, but most people I know who have worked up to reps with bw + 66
lbs. are well past the stage of figuring discovering multiple grips for
pullups. Again, feel free to prove me wrong and post a clip.

> As I mentioned, I am seeing visible chest results in just 6 weeks. So
> the
> emotional side of me is kicking in and making it hard to make the
> wise
> decision :-[

I would get someone familiar with the exercise to watch you. Better
yet, get two or three opinions on your form.

Best of luck to you, whoever you are.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

>> -S-
>> http://www.kbnj.com
>>
>>
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

"Bully" <bully19.DeleteThis@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote in message
news:51b5o6F1jho0eU1@mid.individual.net...
> In news:eopgmf$1nh7$1@otis.netspace.net.au,
> Stephan Carydakis <steph777.DeleteThis@nospam.netspace.net.au> typed:
> > "Bully" <bully19.DeleteThis@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote in message
> > news:519pkdF1jp46pU1@mid.individual.net...
> >> In news:eoo924$1enb$1@otis.netspace.net.au,
> >> Stephan Carydakis <steph777.DeleteThis@nospam.netspace.net.au> typed:
> >>> "Bully" <bully19.DeleteThis@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote in message
> >>> news:519jftF1j0osrU1@mid.individual.net...
> >>>> In news:eoo2hh$1cmq$1@otis.netspace.net.au,
> >>>> Stephan Carydakis <steph777.DeleteThis@nospam.netspace.net.au> typed:
> >>>>> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>>>> news:eonbn9$dvq$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
> >>>>>> Dnia 2007-01-18 Stephan Carydakis napisa³(a):
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Do you ask us what to do with it? Like, do you hope that we
> >>>>>>>> will tell you to go forward until your tendon snaps off?
> >>>>>>>> Sure. I can do that. Go at it till it snaps.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>
> >>> <snip>
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Do you think the elbow pain on the outside of the elbow is related
> >>>>> to weighted dips and pullups?
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes, totally, and I speak from recent experience.
> >>>
> >>> Mmm. I am hesitent to stop all together as I am seeing noticable
> >>> results since beggining these exercises.
> >>
> >> Then let me be the first one to tell you, you are a fool! I'm sure I
> >> won't be the last!
> >>
> >>> My chest is getting
> >>> noticeably fuller, especially at the top.
> >>
> >> What other chest exercises do you do?
> >
> > Flat bench,
> > decline machine.
>
> Why?

I'm making a few mistakes in typing. I meant incline not decline machine. I
had to stop doing decline all together because of bad sholder pain (see, I
do listen to my body!).

>
> I would add inclines to work the pec major clavical head, they've made a
big
> difference to how my chest looks i.e. fuller at the top !
>

Maybe the thickness/fullness is not dues to the dips but the higher weights
I'm doing on the 5x5 trial?

> >>
> >>> I am also getting a bit
> >>> more shape on the outside of my biceps. I'll try dropping some
> >>> weight and see how I go for a couple of weeks. Also drop a set or 2
> >>> for a while?
> >>
> >> Both your call if you are going to persist...
> >
> > As I said in another reply, I've just had 3 days off and will have
> > another 2 before doing biceps and 3 before doing chest. If the pain
> > gets bad again after that,
>
> I'm sure it's highly likely.
>
> > I will stop the new exercises and seek
> > professional advice.
> >
> >>
> >>>
> >>> On a happier note, I had a BF% done at my gym. They used callipers
> >>> to obtain 4 measurments 3 times each from biceps, triceps
> >>> suprailiac and subscapular. I looked this up and it seems to be
> >>> called the Durnin/Womersley method. The measurements were 3mm, 4mm
> >>> 14mm and 15mm respectively. It came in at 18% - lower than what I
> >>> thought :-]
> >>
> >> Seems high based on the measurements you give.
> >>
> >
> > I found this: http://www.linear-software.com/online.html which puts
> > me at
> > 18.07% considering an age of 38 and weight of 90kg.
>
> Ok, age is obviously a factor then.
>
> >
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Bully
> >>>> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
> >>>>
> >>>> "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist
> >>>> sees the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Bully
> >> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
> >>
> >> "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist
> >> sees the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
> >>
> >>
> > Steph.
>
>
>
> --
> Bully
> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>
> "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
> the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

In news:eops4a$1qd5$1@otis.netspace.net.au,
Stephan Carydakis <steph777.DeleteThis@nospam.netspace.net.au> typed:
> "Bully" <bully19.DeleteThis@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote in message
> news:51b5o6F1jho0eU1@mid.individual.net...
>> In news:eopgmf$1nh7$1@otis.netspace.net.au,
>> Stephan Carydakis <steph777.DeleteThis@nospam.netspace.net.au> typed:
>>> "Bully" <bully19.DeleteThis@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote in message
>>> news:519pkdF1jp46pU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>> In news:eoo924$1enb$1@otis.netspace.net.au,
>>>> Stephan Carydakis <steph777.DeleteThis@nospam.netspace.net.au> typed:
>>>>> "Bully" <bully19.DeleteThis@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote in message
>>>>> news:519jftF1j0osrU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>> In news:eoo2hh$1cmq$1@otis.netspace.net.au,
>>>>>> Stephan Carydakis <steph777.DeleteThis@nospam.netspace.net.au> typed:
>>>>>>> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:eonbn9$dvq$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
>>>>>>>> Dnia 2007-01-18 Stephan Carydakis napisa³(a):
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Do you ask us what to do with it? Like, do you hope that we
>>>>>>>>>> will tell you to go forward until your tendon snaps off?
>>>>>>>>>> Sure. I can do that. Go at it till it snaps.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you think the elbow pain on the outside of the elbow is
>>>>>>> related to weighted dips and pullups?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, totally, and I speak from recent experience.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mmm. I am hesitent to stop all together as I am seeing noticable
>>>>> results since beggining these exercises.
>>>>
>>>> Then let me be the first one to tell you, you are a fool! I'm sure
>>>> I won't be the last!
>>>>
>>>>> My chest is getting
>>>>> noticeably fuller, especially at the top.
>>>>
>>>> What other chest exercises do you do?
>>>
>>> Flat bench,
>>> decline machine.
>>
>> Why?
>
> I'm making a few mistakes in typing. I meant incline not decline
> machine. I had to stop doing decline all together because of bad
> sholder pain (see, I do listen to my body!).

Strange, as the whole point of decline presses is to put more emphasis on
pec major [sternal head] & much less on delts.

>
>>
>> I would add inclines to work the pec major clavical head, they've
>> made a big difference to how my chest looks i.e. fuller at the top !
>>
>
> Maybe the thickness/fullness is not dues to the dips but the higher
> weights I'm doing on the 5x5 trial?
>

Probably. Lose the dips & see!!!

How's the 5x5 going otherwise. Do you do 5 work sets, or 5 sets total?


[...]


--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

"Bully" <bully19.TakeThisOut@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote in message
news:51bc0jF1jirjsU1@mid.individual.net...
> In news:eops4a$1qd5$1@otis.netspace.net.au,
> Stephan Carydakis <steph777.TakeThisOut@nospam.netspace.net.au> typed:
> > "Bully" <bully19.TakeThisOut@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote in message
> > news:51b5o6F1jho0eU1@mid.individual.net...
> >> In news:eopgmf$1nh7$1@otis.netspace.net.au,
> >> Stephan Carydakis <steph777.TakeThisOut@nospam.netspace.net.au> typed:
> >>> "Bully" <bully19.TakeThisOut@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote in message
> >>> news:519pkdF1jp46pU1@mid.individual.net...
> >>>> In news:eoo924$1enb$1@otis.netspace.net.au,
> >>>> Stephan Carydakis <steph777.TakeThisOut@nospam.netspace.net.au> typed:
> >>>>> "Bully" <bully19.TakeThisOut@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote in message
> >>>>> news:519jftF1j0osrU1@mid.individual.net...
> >>>>>> In news:eoo2hh$1cmq$1@otis.netspace.net.au,
> >>>>>> Stephan Carydakis <steph777.TakeThisOut@nospam.netspace.net.au> typed:
> >>>>>>> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>>>>>> news:eonbn9$dvq$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
> >>>>>>>> Dnia 2007-01-18 Stephan Carydakis napisa³(a):
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Do you ask us what to do with it? Like, do you hope that we
> >>>>>>>>>> will tell you to go forward until your tendon snaps off?
> >>>>>>>>>> Sure. I can do that. Go at it till it snaps.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> <snip>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Do you think the elbow pain on the outside of the elbow is
> >>>>>>> related to weighted dips and pullups?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Yes, totally, and I speak from recent experience.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Mmm. I am hesitent to stop all together as I am seeing noticable
> >>>>> results since beggining these exercises.
> >>>>
> >>>> Then let me be the first one to tell you, you are a fool! I'm sure
> >>>> I won't be the last!
> >>>>
> >>>>> My chest is getting
> >>>>> noticeably fuller, especially at the top.
> >>>>
> >>>> What other chest exercises do you do?
> >>>
> >>> Flat bench,
> >>> decline machine.
> >>
> >> Why?
> >
> > I'm making a few mistakes in typing. I meant incline not decline
> > machine. I had to stop doing decline all together because of bad
> > sholder pain (see, I do listen to my body!).
>
> Strange, as the whole point of decline presses is to put more emphasis on
> pec major [sternal head] & much less on delts.
>
> >
> >>
> >> I would add inclines to work the pec major clavical head, they've
> >> made a big difference to how my chest looks i.e. fuller at the top !
> >>
> >
> > Maybe the thickness/fullness is not dues to the dips but the higher
> > weights I'm doing on the 5x5 trial?
> >
>
> Probably. Lose the dips & see!!!
>
> How's the 5x5 going otherwise. Do you do 5 work sets, or 5 sets total?
>

It's going ok. I've been doing 2 warmup sets (dips) at the very start then 5
sets each of flat bench, incline machine and weighted dips. I have
increased weight a little and as I said, I am seeing a noticable change in
the shape of my chest. So with that I'm happy. After a slack 3 weeks and 1
week off, I got back into it and was a fair bit down on strength. I will
post results after 10 weeks on it, which will be in another 4.

>
> [...]
>
>
> --
> Bully
> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>
> "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
> the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

Stephan Carydakis wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I trust everyone is happy and healthy-ish?
>
> I have changed a couple of things in my training over the past couple of
> months to included weighted dips and hammer curls. I have begun to
> experience sharp pain in both elbows (particularly right)

Stephan,

My fellow bass man. I read a bunch of replies and you'll excuse me if
I don't fit this in with the
correct postings. In the last two years I had both my elbows operated
on, in one the doc moved
my ulnae nerve from the funny bone to the other side of the elbow. It
was incredibly painful, no way I would
have gone through with it if I knew what he was going to do, much less
how much it hurt. But even in the recovery room, with my pain on a
scale from 1-10 at 43, I immediately knew I had done the right thing,
and told the doc to go ahead and book the other elbow.

First, stop the new exercises. It's that obvious. And don't ask for
diagnoses here. We don't have ultra sound,
MRIs, or anything to look into your joints, fascia, or anything. You
need a good specialist, who is familiar with both sports and musicians
injuries.

You'll get a bunch of postings here, but generally they will break down
to if it started to hurt, stop doing what hurts, and then you'll get
some insults. You may well be able to do what you are doing now, it
just may take longer to get there. Do other things for now and see a
specialist.

Bob
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

"Andrzej Rosa" <bakters DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:eoo7cj$1t9$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
> Dnia 2007-01-18 Stephan Carydakis napisa³(a):
> >
> > In my OP when I said "Eventually, I couldn't even hold the phone for
more
> > than 20 or 30 seconds (I'm that bad at the moment)." I should have said
> > "I'm NOT that bad at the moment". The pain is from the same area.
> >
> > I realise rest is needed though as you astutely observed, I am reluctant
to
> > totally stop training for a long period of time. I don't think I am at
that
> > point yet.
>
> Stop stressing your arms. Totally. Train your legs and torso with
> squats and isolation moves which you can tolerate. You can do traps by
> doing shrugs on a hack-machine, for example. Chest and rear delts on
> pec-dec, maybe some cross-overs, maybe some grip work and forearms.
> This kind of thing. If it hurts, don't do it.
>

OK

> Your tendons do not grow stronger when you stress them. If there is a
> tear in them, your body will simply splash a patch of collagen at it
> and call it a day. Scar tissue is way weaker than proper tendon, so it
> does not transfer much load when you stress it again, so you have a new
> tears, and more scar tissue. You must let it rest. I'm not joking.
>

I had my Thyroid removed a 18 odd years ago and after 3 years the scar was
still very noticable. I personally didn't care but it seemed to affect some
people. I could only imagine what they were thinking when they spotted the
scar across the bottom of my neck. I used to watch peoples eyes as they'd
spot the scar. They'd turn white and get all nervous like. Anyway my point
is these incidences made me consider plastic surgery. I visited a surgeon
who informed me that I have a lot of scar tissue and it this is a genetic
factor. He also informed me that after recutting the scar and folding the
skin in, I would need to wear a neck brace for 8 weeks, even to bed, so I
opted out.

Would the exessive scar tissue I have in skin cuts also apply to tendon and
muscle tears?

> > Do you think the elbow pain on the outside of the elbow is related to
> > weighted dips and pullups?
>
> Yes.
>
> --
> Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

Dnia 2007-01-20 Chris Malcolm napisa³(a):
> Andrzej Rosa <bakters DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Stop stressing your arms. Totally. Train your legs and torso with
>> squats and isolation moves which you can tolerate. You can do traps by
>> doing shrugs on a hack-machine, for example. Chest and rear delts on
>> pec-dec, maybe some cross-overs, maybe some grip work and forearms.
>> This kind of thing. If it hurts, don't do it.
>
>> Your tendons do not grow stronger when you stress them.
>
> Do you mean that what makes tendons grow up to the job demanded of
> them isn't stress, but something else, such as strain, or do you mean
> that every world champion weight lifter was born with tendons already
> up to the job of handling all the muscle his training is going to put
> on?

In part you'd be right that good lifters are born with strong tendons,
but I didn't meant to say just that. I meant to say, that pushing
forward whilst in pain is stupid, because tendons do not react the same
way as muscles do. You can strengthen your tendons with shocks, like
when punching a bag or doing explosive lifts and they will grow
stronger over time. You can strengthen them also during normal
training, but it takes a lot of time. Going to the point of pain is
stupid because they can't recover as fast as your muscles. If you were
highly paid athlete, there are ways to remove scar tissue and heal your
tendons. It involves burning out scar tissue with lasers and letting
your tendon grow back. If you don't want to do that, be sensible with
your soft tissue.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

Dnia 2007-01-20 Stephan Carydakis napisa³(a):
>
> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:eoo7cj$1t9$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
>>
>> Stop stressing your arms. Totally. Train your legs and torso with
>> squats and isolation moves which you can tolerate. You can do traps by
>> doing shrugs on a hack-machine, for example. Chest and rear delts on
>> pec-dec, maybe some cross-overs, maybe some grip work and forearms.
>> This kind of thing. If it hurts, don't do it.
>
> OK

You mean that you start being sensible?

>> Your tendons do not grow stronger when you stress them. If there is a
>> tear in them, your body will simply splash a patch of collagen at it
>> and call it a day. Scar tissue is way weaker than proper tendon, so it
>> does not transfer much load when you stress it again, so you have a new
>> tears, and more scar tissue. You must let it rest. I'm not joking.
>
> I had my Thyroid removed a 18 odd years ago and after 3 years the scar was
> still very noticable. I personally didn't care but it seemed to affect some
> people. I could only imagine what they were thinking when they spotted the
> scar across the bottom of my neck. I used to watch peoples eyes as they'd
> spot the scar. They'd turn white and get all nervous like. Anyway my point
> is these incidences made me consider plastic surgery. I visited a surgeon
> who informed me that I have a lot of scar tissue and it this is a genetic
> factor. He also informed me that after recutting the scar and folding the
> skin in, I would need to wear a neck brace for 8 weeks, even to bed, so I
> opted out.
>
> Would the exessive scar tissue I have in skin cuts also apply to tendon and
> muscle tears?

No, it's a different thing. Your tendons are under your skin, so scar
tissue there is not visible from the outside. Problem is, that it
doesn't work as well as your proper tendon, so if you stress your
tendons beyond pain they become weaker and weaker. Ease up, or you
risk tearing them apart. You trained for about a year now, didn't you?
You had your beginner's gains, and a huge gains even for a beginner.
Your muscles adapt to training very well, but your tendons do not. You
must ease up and let your soft tissue catch up with the rest of your
body. Once it happens you can go forward again. Later things should
be easier, because gains in your muscles will not be so fast any more.

If you remember, I recommended switching focus from hypertrophy to
speed strength. This kind of training doesn't promote hypertrophy as
much as typical bodybuilding and at the same time it stimulates your
tendons better. If you'll decide to listen to what I tell you, ask
away and I'll give you a program which should help you recover.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

"Steve Freides" <steve DeleteThis @fridayscomputer.com> wrote in message
news:51cqrdF1jbnmnU1@mid.individual.net...
> "Stephan Carydakis" <steph777 DeleteThis @nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote in message
> news:eoph2q$1nk1$1@otis.netspace.net.au...
> >
> > "Steve Freides" <steve DeleteThis @fridayscomputer.com> wrote in message
> > news:519p0dF1j94keU1@mid.individual.net...
> >> "Stephan Carydakis" <steph777 DeleteThis @nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote in
> >> message
> >> news:eomool$1195$1@otis.netspace.net.au...
> >> > Hi All,
> >> >
> >> > I trust everyone is happy and healthy-ish?
> >> >

<snip>

> > Food for thought...I have not considered changing grips before. I'll
> > certainly try that. With dips, I am only doing 5 sets of 5 but with
> > 30kg so
> > this may be putting undue strain on elbows? Pull ups are similar
> > weight but
> > I'm doing greater reps in the 10 and 8 range.
>
> Dips are one of those things that, for some people, can result in injury
> even with bodyweight. It is far from the ideal exercise for most people
> for that reason.
>
> Pullups with bw + 30 kg for 8-10 reps? That's quite an achievement for
> most people. While it's possible (I could do it w/ a little training -
> I've done bw + 100 lbs. for a single), I'll believe it when I see the
> video tape you put on YouTube showing you doing this. Call me a
> skeptic, but most people I know who have worked up to reps with bw + 66
> lbs. are well past the stage of figuring discovering multiple grips for
> pullups. Again, feel free to prove me wrong and post a clip.
>

"Similar" weight. So I'm doing something like this:

10xbw
8x10kg
8X15kg
6x20kg
4x25kg


> > As I mentioned, I am seeing visible chest results in just 6 weeks. So
> > the
> > emotional side of me is kicking in and making it hard to make the
> > wise
> > decision :-[
>
> I would get someone familiar with the exercise to watch you. Better
> yet, get two or three opinions on your form.
>
> Best of luck to you, whoever you are.
>

I have a free PT session next week so I'll get them to take a look then.

Thanks.You too.

> -S-
> http://www.kbnj.com
>
> >> -S-
> >> http://www.kbnj.com
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
Steph.
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

"Stephan Carydakis" <steph777 RemoveThis @nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote in message
news:eorvv5$2aao$1@otis.netspace.net.au...
>
> "Steve Freides" <steve RemoveThis @fridayscomputer.com> wrote in message
> news:51cqrdF1jbnmnU1@mid.individual.net...
>> "Stephan Carydakis" <steph777 RemoveThis @nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote in
>> message
>> news:eoph2q$1nk1$1@otis.netspace.net.au...
>> >
>> > "Steve Freides" <steve RemoveThis @fridayscomputer.com> wrote in message
>> > news:519p0dF1j94keU1@mid.individual.net...
>> >> "Stephan Carydakis" <steph777 RemoveThis @nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote in
>> >> message
>> >> news:eomool$1195$1@otis.netspace.net.au...
>> >> > Hi All,
>> >> >
>> >> > I trust everyone is happy and healthy-ish?
>> >> >
>
> <snip>
>
>> > Food for thought...I have not considered changing grips before.
>> > I'll
>> > certainly try that. With dips, I am only doing 5 sets of 5 but with
>> > 30kg so
>> > this may be putting undue strain on elbows? Pull ups are similar
>> > weight but
>> > I'm doing greater reps in the 10 and 8 range.
>>
>> Dips are one of those things that, for some people, can result in
>> injury
>> even with bodyweight. It is far from the ideal exercise for most
>> people
>> for that reason.
>>
>> Pullups with bw + 30 kg for 8-10 reps? That's quite an achievement
>> for
>> most people. While it's possible (I could do it w/ a little
>> training -
>> I've done bw + 100 lbs. for a single), I'll believe it when I see the
>> video tape you put on YouTube showing you doing this. Call me a
>> skeptic, but most people I know who have worked up to reps with bw +
>> 66
>> lbs. are well past the stage of figuring discovering multiple grips
>> for
>> pullups. Again, feel free to prove me wrong and post a clip.
>>
>
> "Similar" weight. So I'm doing something like this:
>
> 10xbw
> 8x10kg
> 8X15kg
> 6x20kg
> 4x25kg

OK. That's a lot of pullups. If you'll allow an opinion, I'd consider
dropping the 10 x bw altogether and starting with 10 x bw+10kg, then
continuing as you were. Do a few bw-only to warmup if you like first
but not 10. I think you'll find you'll get stronger because you'll be
fresher for the heavier sets. The idea of moving from more reps with
less weight to fewer reps with more weight is a solid one, IMHO. I
often use a 5-4-3-2-1 rep scheme when deadlifting, e.g., and it's worked
out well for me.

>> > As I mentioned, I am seeing visible chest results in just 6 weeks.
>> > So
>> > the
>> > emotional side of me is kicking in and making it hard to make the
>> > wise
>> > decision :-[
>>
>> I would get someone familiar with the exercise to watch you. Better
>> yet, get two or three opinions on your form.
>>
>> Best of luck to you, whoever you are.
>>
>
> I have a free PT session next week so I'll get them to take a look
> then.
>
> Thanks.You too.
>
>> -S-
>> http://www.kbnj.com
>>
>> >> -S-
>> >> http://www.kbnj.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
> Steph.
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007, Steve Freides wrote:

> "Stephan Carydakis" <steph777.RemoveThis@nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote in message
> news:eorvv5$2aao$1@otis.netspace.net.au...
>>
>> "Steve Freides" <steve.RemoveThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote in message
>> news:51cqrdF1jbnmnU1@mid.individual.net...
>>> "Stephan Carydakis" <steph777.RemoveThis@nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote in
>>> message
>>> news:eoph2q$1nk1$1@otis.netspace.net.au...
>>>>
>>>> "Steve Freides" <steve.RemoveThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:519p0dF1j94keU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>> "Stephan Carydakis" <steph777.RemoveThis@nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote in
>>>>> message
>>>>> news:eomool$1195$1@otis.netspace.net.au...
>>>>>
>>>>>> I trust everyone is happy and healthy-ish?
>>>>>>
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> Food for thought...I have not considered changing grips before. I'll
>>>> certainly try that. With dips, I am only doing 5 sets of 5 but with
>>>> 30kg so this may be putting undue strain on elbows? Pull ups are
>>>> similar weight but I'm doing greater reps in the 10 and 8 range.
>>>
>>> Pullups with bw + 30 kg for 8-10 reps? That's quite an achievement
>>> for most people.
>>
>> "Similar" weight. So I'm doing something like this:
>>
>> 10xbw
>> 8x10kg
>> 8X15kg
>> 6x20kg
>> 4x25kg
>
> OK. That's a lot of pullups. If you'll allow an opinion, I'd consider
> dropping the 10 x bw altogether and starting with 10 x bw+10kg, then
> continuing as you were. Do a few bw-only to warmup if you like first
> but not 10. I think you'll find you'll get stronger because you'll be
> fresher for the heavier sets. The idea of moving from more reps with
> less weight to fewer reps with more weight is a solid one, IMHO. I
> often use a 5-4-3-2-1 rep scheme when deadlifting, e.g., and it's worked
> out well for me.

Incidentally, i came across this research today:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&d...=Abstra

"Muscular adaptations to combinations of high- and low-intensity
resistance exercises."

Which, if i read the abstract right (haven't managed to get the whole
paper yet), suggests that you get getter strength gains from a combination
of intermediate- and high-rep work than from intermediate- and low-rep
work, which goes against traditional thinking. They didn't do a comparison
to straight low-rep work (or just intermediate-rep), though. Also, i think
this is with untrained subjects, as usual.

tom

--
Infantry err, infantry die. Artillery err, infantry die. -- IDF proverb
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

"Tom Anderson" <twic.DeleteThis@urchin.earth.li> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.62.0701201729310.31735@urchin.earth.li...
> On Sat, 20 Jan 2007, Steve Freides wrote:
>
>> "Stephan Carydakis" <steph777.DeleteThis@nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote in
>> message
>> news:eorvv5$2aao$1@otis.netspace.net.au...
>>>
>>> "Steve Freides" <steve.DeleteThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote in message
>>> news:51cqrdF1jbnmnU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>> "Stephan Carydakis" <steph777.DeleteThis@nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote in
>>>> message
>>>> news:eoph2q$1nk1$1@otis.netspace.net.au...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Steve Freides" <steve.DeleteThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:519p0dF1j94keU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>> "Stephan Carydakis" <steph777.DeleteThis@nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote in
>>>>>> message
>>>>>> news:eomool$1195$1@otis.netspace.net.au...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I trust everyone is happy and healthy-ish?
>>>>>>>
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>>> Food for thought...I have not considered changing grips before.
>>>>> I'll certainly try that. With dips, I am only doing 5 sets of 5
>>>>> but with 30kg so this may be putting undue strain on elbows? Pull
>>>>> ups are similar weight but I'm doing greater reps in the 10 and 8
>>>>> range.
>>>>
>>>> Pullups with bw + 30 kg for 8-10 reps? That's quite an achievement
>>>> for most people.
>>>
>>> "Similar" weight. So I'm doing something like this:
>>>
>>> 10xbw
>>> 8x10kg
>>> 8X15kg
>>> 6x20kg
>>> 4x25kg
>>
>> OK. That's a lot of pullups. If you'll allow an opinion, I'd
>> consider dropping the 10 x bw altogether and starting with 10 x
>> bw+10kg, then continuing as you were. Do a few bw-only to warmup if
>> you like first but not 10. I think you'll find you'll get stronger
>> because you'll be fresher for the heavier sets. The idea of moving
>> from more reps with less weight to fewer reps with more weight is a
>> solid one, IMHO. I often use a 5-4-3-2-1 rep scheme when
>> deadlifting, e.g., and it's worked out well for me.
>
> Incidentally, i came across this research today:
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&d...=Abstra
>
> "Muscular adaptations to combinations of high- and low-intensity
> resistance exercises."
>
> Which, if i read the abstract right (haven't managed to get the whole
> paper yet), suggests that you get getter strength gains from a
> combination of intermediate- and high-rep work than from intermediate-
> and low-rep work, which goes against traditional thinking. They didn't
> do a comparison to straight low-rep work (or just intermediate-rep),
> though. Also, i think this is with untrained subjects, as usual.

If you look at the training of a lot of successful lifters, you'll
usually find a pretty good mix of things. Some, e.g., do low rep work
for strength on the main lifts, intermediate rep counts on assistance
work, then do high rep work one week a month during their backoff week.
All of which is my way of saying that the "combination" to which you
refer doesn't necessarily need to be in the same workout or even the
same week to be effective. Lots of people mix it up across a multi-week
cycle or even a yearly or multi-year program and get great results.

I'm having fun now doing intermediate and high-rep stuff after I pretty
much burned myself out deadlifting heavy in the Fall. Lots of
bodyweight-only pullups, 15-rep overhead squats with a light weight,
high-rep kettlebell snatches and swings, plus low reps using only
bodyweight in the form of pistols and one-armed pushups. It's a nice
change of pace. Variety is the spice of life.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

>
> tom
>
> --
> Infantry err, infantry die. Artillery err, infantry die. -- IDF
> proverb
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps