Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps

On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 12:23:29 -0500, "Steve Freides"
<steve.DeleteThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:

>"Stephan Carydakis" <steph777.DeleteThis@nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote in message
>news:eomool$1195$1@otis.netspace.net.au...
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I trust everyone is happy and healthy-ish?
>>
>> I have changed a couple of things in my training over the past couple
>> of
>> months to included weighted dips and hammer curls. I have begun to
>> experience sharp pain in both elbows (particularly right) and at the
>> distal
>> end of the biceps (particularly left) kind of underneath the biceps. I
>> have
>> had a slack 3 weeks with 1 week totally off for rest. The elbow pain
>> is the
>> same type of pain I experienced about 12 years ago when I was a
>> professional
>> musician (bass player). I completed over 1250 gigs during a 5.5 year
>> period
>> and developed a RSI injury. Eventually, I couldn't even hold the phone
>> for
>> more than 20 or 30 seconds (I'm that bad at the moment). The biceps
>> pain I
>> have not experienced before. During my last massage, my masseuse got
>> right
>> in to the distal end of the left biceps and it was extremely painful
>> to say
>> the least. It did subside after massage.
>>
>> The biceps pain started as the type of pain that I could 'warmup'
>> through
>> (it used to subside) however this week I had to stop hammer curls
>> after just
>> the second set. My elbows seem to have worsened over the past 2 weeks
>> and
>> especially this week after doing weighted dips 2 days ago. Even
>> sitting here
>> and occasionally lifting my coffee causes a sharp but bearable pain on
>> the
>> outside of my right elbow.
>>
>> Are these signs of over-training or over-ageing? Are they tendon or
>> attachment etc type strains? Should I reduce the weights I'm using for
>> a
>> while?
>
>Yet another calm, cool, collected discussion on mfw, I see.
>
>Stop doing what you recently added and see if your conditions improve -
>common sense, nothing more. There are substitutes and work-arounds for
>everything and I'm sure you'll find some. A good idea, IMHO, might be
>to start back only with pullups and avoid the dips once your symptoms
>disappear - try for a lot of short sets rather than long ones, and
>minimize the rest periods to give yourself whatever total volume you're
>after - again, to minimize the possibility of reinjury. Generally
>speaking, dips are more problematic for most people than pullups
>although it's possible that dips will work for you and pullups will
>not - only time and some careful experimentation will tell. With
>pullups, try various grips - pronated, supinated, and neutral - as well
>as various grip widths to find what your elbows like best, and try to
>keep a mix of them in your training if you can.
>
>Good luck.
>
>-S-
>http://www.kbnj.com
>

I have no medical training and lack the qualifications to offer sound
advice on rehabilitation matters so my inclination is to tell this
person to back off dips, curls, and pullups until given a medical
green light. Until then, squats would probably be OK, but not heavy
deadlifts.

I've heard that a biceps tendon tear can produce pain that's mild in
relation to the seriousness of the actual injury. And we're talking
about actual tears. There are other, less serious injuries related to
the biceps brachii, distal tendon. My question, therefore, is whether
it's safe to assume that the OP can continue what he was doing or do
pullups once his symptoms have disappeared. If the injury is more
serious than the pain, it would be a mistake to resume training when
one isn't experiencing "that much" pain. How long one must wait
before resuming training after symptoms have disappeared is not a
question I would presume to answer.

With a (pronated grip) pullup, my understanding is that the biceps
tendon "wraps around" the radius. When the muscle contracts, it tends
to pull around the corner. This means that the load falls on the
brachialis and the shoulder muscles. That's why the pronated grip is
harder.

A supinated grip chin-up provides a more favorable straight line of
pull, which makes it easier to do. With a neutral grip, the
brachioradalis has a favorable angle of pull. Also, the biceps
brachii is not twisted in its angle of pull and is very strong in this
position.

I've read that the elbows should be kept slightly bent in the down
position to avoid tendonitis of the biceps brachii. The downside is
that doing this constantly might promote loss of flexibility and make
it more difficult to straighten your arms. This, in turn, mght limit
triceps development.

I've also read that it might be possible to prevent (not
rehabilitate!) a biceps brachii tendon tear by regularly working the
biceps in such a way as to strengthen the tendon. One exercise that
supposedly accomplishes this objective are forearm flexion isolations
using a bb in a series of cheats by leaning the chest back to give the
bar a boost. If one does this without rounding the back, this
exercise reportedly strengthens the distal tendon of the biceps.
(Whether one uses a straight bar or an E-Z bar depends on an
individual's elbow structure or the angle of the elbow between the
upper arm and the forearm. If someone's forearms hang distinctly away
from the body in a valgus position, an E-Z bar should be used to
spare his/her wrists. Any merit to this recommendation?
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

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 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

"Bully" <bully19 RemoveThis @proteinbars.co.ok> wrote in message
news:519jftF1j0osrU1@mid.individual.net...
> In news:eoo2hh$1cmq$1@otis.netspace.net.au,
> Stephan Carydakis <steph777 RemoveThis @nospam.netspace.net.au> typed:
> > "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:eonbn9$dvq$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
> >> Dnia 2007-01-18 Stephan Carydakis napisa³(a):
> >>>
> >>> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>>
> >>>> Do you ask us what to do with it? Like, do you hope that we will
> >>>> tell you to go forward until your tendon snaps off? Sure. I can
> >>>> do that. Go at it till it snaps.
> >>>

<snip>

> >
> > Do you think the elbow pain on the outside of the elbow is related to
> > weighted dips and pullups?
>
> Yes, totally, and I speak from recent experience.

Mmm. I am hesitent to stop all together as I am seeing noticable results
since beggining these exercises. My chest is getting noticeably fuller,
especially at the top. I am also getting a bit more shape on the outside of
my biceps. I'll try dropping some weight and see how I go for a couple of
weeks. Also drop a set or 2 for a while?

On a happier note, I had a BF% done at my gym. They used callipers to obtain
4 measurments 3 times each from biceps, triceps suprailiac and subscapular.
I looked this up and it seems to be called the Durnin/Womersley method. The
measurements were 3mm, 4mm 14mm and 15mm respectively. It came in at 18% -
lower than what I thought :-]

>
> --
> Bully
> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>
> "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
> the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

In news:eoo924$1enb$1@otis.netspace.net.au,
Stephan Carydakis <steph777 DeleteThis @nospam.netspace.net.au> typed:
> "Bully" <bully19 DeleteThis @proteinbars.co.ok> wrote in message
> news:519jftF1j0osrU1@mid.individual.net...
>> In news:eoo2hh$1cmq$1@otis.netspace.net.au,
>> Stephan Carydakis <steph777 DeleteThis @nospam.netspace.net.au> typed:
>>> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:eonbn9$dvq$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
>>>> Dnia 2007-01-18 Stephan Carydakis napisa³(a):
>>>>>
>>>>> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you ask us what to do with it? Like, do you hope that we will
>>>>>> tell you to go forward until your tendon snaps off? Sure. I can
>>>>>> do that. Go at it till it snaps.
>>>>>
>
> <snip>
>
>>>
>>> Do you think the elbow pain on the outside of the elbow is related
>>> to weighted dips and pullups?
>>
>> Yes, totally, and I speak from recent experience.
>
> Mmm. I am hesitent to stop all together as I am seeing noticable
> results since beggining these exercises.

Then let me be the first one to tell you, you are a fool! I'm sure I won't
be the last!

> My chest is getting
> noticeably fuller, especially at the top.

What other chest exercises do you do?

> I am also getting a bit
> more shape on the outside of my biceps. I'll try dropping some weight
> and see how I go for a couple of weeks. Also drop a set or 2 for a
> while?

Both your call if you are going to persist...

>
> On a happier note, I had a BF% done at my gym. They used callipers to
> obtain 4 measurments 3 times each from biceps, triceps suprailiac and
> subscapular. I looked this up and it seems to be called the
> Durnin/Womersley method. The measurements were 3mm, 4mm 14mm and 15mm
> respectively. It came in at 18% - lower than what I thought :-]

Seems high based on the measurements you give.

>
>>
>> --
>> Bully
>> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>>
>> "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist
>> sees the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill



--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

"Stephan Carydakis" <steph777.TakeThisOut@nospam.netspace.net.au> schreef:

>> > Do you think the elbow pain on the outside of the elbow is related to
>> > weighted dips and pullups?

>> Does the pain dissapear when you stop doing dips and pullups?

> The pain gets better with massage and after a day off it gets noticeably
> better too. I just haven't had this level of pain before and I am
> concerned,
> hence the posting.

But the pullups and dips are the cause of the pain?

--
Pete, The New & Improved Version

"Take your own advice: killfile. I took your advice on that subject BTW.
Your turn dude" -- Will Brink

"Problem is, I still see his/their posts 'cause
you respond to them, and that throws the balance of the universe of" -- Will
Brink
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

"Stephan Carydakis" <steph777.TakeThisOut@nospam.netspace.net.au> schreef:

>> You shouldn't get any pain. Sore muscles are good. Pain is bad. You
>> need to know the difference.

> You never have pain other than muscle soreness?

Never.

And i am sore because i insist on doing lots of heavy sets.

When i reduce the weight by 10%, or reduce the number of sets, i am not even
sore.

> I would have thought that
> some is inevitable considering heavy weights are used?

Who, or what, gave you the idea that lifting heavy should cause pain?

--
Pete, The New & Improved Version

"Take your own advice: killfile. I took your advice on that subject BTW.
Your turn dude" -- Will Brink

"Problem is, I still see his/their posts 'cause
you respond to them, and that throws the balance of the universe of" -- Will
Brink
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

"Bully" <bully19.RemoveThis@proteinbars.co.ok> schreef:

>> I'm making a few mistakes in typing. I meant incline not decline
>> machine. I had to stop doing decline all together because of bad
>> sholder pain (see, I do listen to my body!).

> Strange, as the whole point of decline presses is to put more emphasis on
> pec major [sternal head] & much less on delts.

Not really.

The short ROM is tricking people into using more weight than they can use
when doing both flat or incline presses.

And if you use heavy dumbells, your humerus is forced into a very awkward
position.

I always advice against this particular exercise.

--
Pete, The New & Improved Version

"Take your own advice: killfile. I took your advice on that subject BTW.
Your turn dude" -- Will Brink

"Problem is, I still see his/their posts 'cause
you respond to them, and that throws the balance of the universe of" -- Will
Brink
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

"Pete (New & Improved, Version 4.08a)" <phoutstra.TakeThisOut@wanadoo.nl> wrote in
message news:45b09e2a$0$93183$dbd43001@news.wanadoo.nl...
>
>
> "Stephan Carydakis" <steph777.TakeThisOut@nospam.netspace.net.au> schreef:
>
> >> You shouldn't get any pain. Sore muscles are good. Pain is bad. You
> >> need to know the difference.
>
> > You never have pain other than muscle soreness?
>
> Never.

Good for you! I had to stop decline bench press because of intense pain in
my left shoulder during exercise. I rested, dropped the weight and
eventually went back to full weight until one day while doing a heavy set
it, I nearly drop the bar. That was the end of decline for me.

>
> And i am sore because i insist on doing lots of heavy sets.
>
> When i reduce the weight by 10%, or reduce the number of sets, i am not
even
> sore.

You refer to DOMS when you say sore? Since doing the 5x5 trial and adding
weighted dips, I have had DOMS every week in my chest and it feels good.

>
> > I would have thought that
> > some is inevitable considering heavy weights are used?
>
> Who, or what, gave you the idea that lifting heavy should cause pain?
>

We all have weaknesses and maybe old sports injuries. If you are pushing
your body by doing heavy sets on a regular basis then at some point you may
tweak something no? Like I seem to be experiencing at the moment.

> --
> Pete, The New & Improved Version
>
> "Take your own advice: killfile. I took your advice on that subject BTW.
> Your turn dude" -- Will Brink
>
> "Problem is, I still see his/their posts 'cause
> you respond to them, and that throws the balance of the universe of" --
Will
> Brink
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

"Pete (New & Improved, Version 4.08a)" <phoutstra.TakeThisOut@wanadoo.nl> wrote in
message news:45b09d3c$0$53424$dbd43001@news.wanadoo.nl...
> "Stephan Carydakis" <steph777.TakeThisOut@nospam.netspace.net.au> schreef:
>
> >> > Do you think the elbow pain on the outside of the elbow is related to
> >> > weighted dips and pullups?
>
> >> Does the pain dissapear when you stop doing dips and pullups?
>
> > The pain gets better with massage and after a day off it gets noticeably
> > better too. I just haven't had this level of pain before and I am
> > concerned,
> > hence the posting.
>
> But the pullups and dips are the cause of the pain?

The elbow pain definately seems dips related. The left biceps pain seems to
be partly pull ups (underhanded which has biceps as a synergist yes?) and
partly hammer curls? I'm not sure it's actually the distal biceps
connection. Just looking at exrx.net I'm thinking it may also be the
brachialis? I'm not sure. I have increased weight on DB curls and BB curls
as well as introducing the hammer curls for biceps. Adding the weighted
pullups would also certainly add strain to the area yes?

>
> --
> Pete, The New & Improved Version
>
> "Take your own advice: killfile. I took your advice on that subject BTW.
> Your turn dude" -- Will Brink
>
> "Problem is, I still see his/their posts 'cause
> you respond to them, and that throws the balance of the universe of" --
Will
> Brink
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

Bully wrote:
> In news:eoqeva$1umb$1@otis.netspace.net.au,
> Stephan Carydakis <steph777.DeleteThis@nospam.netspace.net.au> typed:
> > "Pete (New & Improved, Version 4.08a)" <phoutstra.DeleteThis@wanadoo.nl> wrote in
> > message news:45b09d3c$0$53424$dbd43001@news.wanadoo.nl...
> >> "Stephan Carydakis" <steph777.DeleteThis@nospam.netspace.net.au> schreef:
> >>
> >>>>> Do you think the elbow pain on the outside of the elbow is
> >>>>> related to weighted dips and pullups?
> >>
> >>>> Does the pain dissapear when you stop doing dips and pullups?
> >>
> >>> The pain gets better with massage and after a day off it gets
> >>> noticeably better too. I just haven't had this level of pain before
> >>> and I am concerned,
> >>> hence the posting.
> >>
> >> But the pullups and dips are the cause of the pain?
> >
> > The elbow pain definately seems dips related. The left biceps pain
> > seems to be partly pull ups (underhanded which has biceps as a
> > synergist yes?) and partly hammer curls? I'm not sure it's actually
> > the distal biceps connection. Just looking at exrx.net I'm thinking
> > it may also be the brachialis? I'm not sure. I have increased weight
> > on DB curls and BB curls as well as introducing the hammer curls for
> > biceps. Adding the weighted pullups would also certainly add strain
> > to the area yes?
> >
>
> Yes.
>
> --
> Bully
> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>
> "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
> the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill

Hey ,great discussion/ FWIW I had similar problem just on my right arm
from performing pullups/chinups ,the pain was enough to put me out of
action for a few days-I started to drop the reps-4-5 per set of pullups
,changing the grip between sets.
I went to the doctors and he told me that it was due to my right arm
using the mouse on my PC whilst jacking off over internet pron,the best
things in life are always painful.
btw are there 2 Bullys? it seemed one was contradicting the other.
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

In news:eoqeva$1umb$1@otis.netspace.net.au,
Stephan Carydakis <steph777.DeleteThis@nospam.netspace.net.au> typed:
> "Pete (New & Improved, Version 4.08a)" <phoutstra.DeleteThis@wanadoo.nl> wrote in
> message news:45b09d3c$0$53424$dbd43001@news.wanadoo.nl...
>> "Stephan Carydakis" <steph777.DeleteThis@nospam.netspace.net.au> schreef:
>>
>>>>> Do you think the elbow pain on the outside of the elbow is
>>>>> related to weighted dips and pullups?
>>
>>>> Does the pain dissapear when you stop doing dips and pullups?
>>
>>> The pain gets better with massage and after a day off it gets
>>> noticeably better too. I just haven't had this level of pain before
>>> and I am concerned,
>>> hence the posting.
>>
>> But the pullups and dips are the cause of the pain?
>
> The elbow pain definately seems dips related. The left biceps pain
> seems to be partly pull ups (underhanded which has biceps as a
> synergist yes?) and partly hammer curls? I'm not sure it's actually
> the distal biceps connection. Just looking at exrx.net I'm thinking
> it may also be the brachialis? I'm not sure. I have increased weight
> on DB curls and BB curls as well as introducing the hammer curls for
> biceps. Adding the weighted pullups would also certainly add strain
> to the area yes?
>

Yes.

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

"Bully" <bully19.RemoveThis@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote in message
news:519pkdF1jp46pU1@mid.individual.net...
> In news:eoo924$1enb$1@otis.netspace.net.au,
> Stephan Carydakis <steph777.RemoveThis@nospam.netspace.net.au> typed:
> > "Bully" <bully19.RemoveThis@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote in message
> > news:519jftF1j0osrU1@mid.individual.net...
> >> In news:eoo2hh$1cmq$1@otis.netspace.net.au,
> >> Stephan Carydakis <steph777.RemoveThis@nospam.netspace.net.au> typed:
> >>> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>> news:eonbn9$dvq$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
> >>>> Dnia 2007-01-18 Stephan Carydakis napisa³(a):
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Do you ask us what to do with it? Like, do you hope that we will
> >>>>>> tell you to go forward until your tendon snaps off? Sure. I can
> >>>>>> do that. Go at it till it snaps.
> >>>>>
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >>>
> >>> Do you think the elbow pain on the outside of the elbow is related
> >>> to weighted dips and pullups?
> >>
> >> Yes, totally, and I speak from recent experience.
> >
> > Mmm. I am hesitent to stop all together as I am seeing noticable
> > results since beggining these exercises.
>
> Then let me be the first one to tell you, you are a fool! I'm sure I won't
> be the last!
>
> > My chest is getting
> > noticeably fuller, especially at the top.
>
> What other chest exercises do you do?

Flat bench, decline machine.

>
> > I am also getting a bit
> > more shape on the outside of my biceps. I'll try dropping some weight
> > and see how I go for a couple of weeks. Also drop a set or 2 for a
> > while?
>
> Both your call if you are going to persist...

As I said in another reply, I've just had 3 days off and will have another 2
before doing biceps and 3 before doing chest. If the pain gets bad again
after that, I will stop the new exercises and seek professional advice.

>
> >
> > On a happier note, I had a BF% done at my gym. They used callipers to
> > obtain 4 measurments 3 times each from biceps, triceps suprailiac and
> > subscapular. I looked this up and it seems to be called the
> > Durnin/Womersley method. The measurements were 3mm, 4mm 14mm and 15mm
> > respectively. It came in at 18% - lower than what I thought :-]
>
> Seems high based on the measurements you give.
>

I found this: http://www.linear-software.com/online.html which puts me at
18.07% considering an age of 38 and weight of 90kg.

> >
> >>
> >> --
> >> Bully
> >> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
> >>
> >> "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist
> >> sees the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
>
>
>
> --
> Bully
> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>
> "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
> the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
>
>
Steph.
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps