Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps

"Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:eon8ca$se9$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
> Dnia 2007-01-18 Stephan Carydakis napisa³(a):
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I trust everyone is happy and healthy-ish?
> >
> > I have changed a couple of things in my training over the past couple of
> > months to included weighted dips and hammer curls. I have begun to
> > experience sharp pain in both elbows (particularly right) and at the
distal
> > end of the biceps (particularly left) kind of underneath the biceps. I
have
> > had a slack 3 weeks with 1 week totally off for rest. The elbow pain is
the
> > same type of pain I experienced about 12 years ago when I was a
professional
> > musician (bass player). I completed over 1250 gigs during a 5.5 year
period
> > and developed a RSI injury. Eventually, I couldn't even hold the phone
for
> > more than 20 or 30 seconds (I'm that bad at the moment). The biceps pain
I
> > have not experienced before. During my last massage, my masseuse got
right
> > in to the distal end of the left biceps and it was extremely painful to
say
> > the least. It did subside after massage.
> >
> > The biceps pain started as the type of pain that I could 'warmup'
through
> > (it used to subside) however this week I had to stop hammer curls after
just
> > the second set. My elbows seem to have worsened over the past 2 weeks
and
> > especially this week after doing weighted dips 2 days ago. Even sitting
here
> > and occasionally lifting my coffee causes a sharp but bearable pain on
the
> > outside of my right elbow.
>
> Do you ask us what to do with it? Like, do you hope that we will tell you
> to go forward until your tendon snaps off? Sure. I can do that. Go
> at it till it snaps.

Yeah, thats what I was hoping for. Now It's all clear to me. Thanks.

>
> > Are these signs of over-training or over-ageing?
>
> No.
>

The best part of your reply thus far.

> > Are they tendon or attachment etc type strains?
>
> What's the difference?

You don't know?

>
> > Should I reduce the weights I'm using for a
> > while?
>
> Yes. To 0 lb on any exercise which causes you pain. Or increase it
> till it snaps. Whatever you prefer.
>
> > Thanks,
>
> No problem. I doubt you'll listen anyway, but I like this specific "I
> told you so!" feeling, so it was my pleasure.
>

Ok. Have you come off your medication recently?

> --
> Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

Dnia 2007-01-18 Stephan Carydakis napisa³(a):
>
> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
>> Do you ask us what to do with it? Like, do you hope that we will tell you
>> to go forward until your tendon snaps off? Sure. I can do that. Go
>> at it till it snaps.
>
> Yeah, thats what I was hoping for. Now It's all clear to me. Thanks.

I suspected that you already knew what to do, so why do you insist on
not doing it?

>> > Are these signs of over-training or over-ageing?
>>
>> No.
>
> The best part of your reply thus far.
>
>> > Are they tendon or attachment etc type strains?
>>
>> What's the difference?
>
> You don't know?

I don't know why would it matter? In both cases you need to stop
making it worse, so what's the difference?

>> > Should I reduce the weights I'm using for a
>> > while?
>>
>> Yes. To 0 lb on any exercise which causes you pain. Or increase it
>> till it snaps. Whatever you prefer.
>>
>> > Thanks,
>>
>> No problem. I doubt you'll listen anyway, but I like this specific "I
>> told you so!" feeling, so it was my pleasure.
>
> Ok. Have you come off your medication recently?

Long time ago, actually. If they would actually work I'd be taking
them, but they do not. No easy way out, just like in your case.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

Dnia 2007-01-18 Bully napisa³(a):
> In news:eonbn9$dvq$1@inews.gazeta.pl,
> Andrzej Rosa <bakters RemoveThis @yahoo.com> typed:
>> Dnia 2007-01-18 Stephan Carydakis napisa³(a):
>>>
>>>>> Should I reduce the weights I'm using for a
>>>>> while?
>>>>
>>>> Yes. To 0 lb on any exercise which causes you pain. Or increase it
>>>> till it snaps. Whatever you prefer.
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> No problem. I doubt you'll listen anyway, but I like this specific
>>>> "I told you so!" feeling, so it was my pleasure.
>>>
>>> Ok. Have you come off your medication recently?
>>
>> Long time ago, actually. If they would actually work I'd be taking
>> them, but they do not. No easy way out, just like in your case.
>
> I believe what Andrzej is subtlety hinting at here is as follows:
>
> 1/ state #1: all ok
> 2/ action #1: you change something
> 3/ state #2: all NOT ok
> 4/ action #2: you ask someone else what they think is wrong

Oh, he did that. Iirc it was suggested to him to stop doing things
which result in pain, so he did that too, for all of a week or
something but then went back into injuring himself to the point of
pretty much constant pain. So he knows what to do (stop injuring
himself) but he just doesn't want to. Mild suggestions didn't work
before, so now I used more cynical approach.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

In news:eonbn9$dvq$1@inews.gazeta.pl,
Andrzej Rosa <bakters.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> typed:
> Dnia 2007-01-18 Stephan Carydakis napisa³(a):
>>
>> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>>> Do you ask us what to do with it? Like, do you hope that we will
>>> tell you to go forward until your tendon snaps off? Sure. I can
>>> do that. Go
>>> at it till it snaps.
>>
>> Yeah, thats what I was hoping for. Now It's all clear to me. Thanks.
>
> I suspected that you already knew what to do, so why do you insist on
> not doing it?
>
>>>> Are these signs of over-training or over-ageing?
>>>
>>> No.
>>
>> The best part of your reply thus far.
>>
>>>> Are they tendon or attachment etc type strains?
>>>
>>> What's the difference?
>>
>> You don't know?
>
> I don't know why would it matter? In both cases you need to stop
> making it worse, so what's the difference?
>
>>>> Should I reduce the weights I'm using for a
>>>> while?
>>>
>>> Yes. To 0 lb on any exercise which causes you pain. Or increase it
>>> till it snaps. Whatever you prefer.
>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> No problem. I doubt you'll listen anyway, but I like this specific
>>> "I told you so!" feeling, so it was my pleasure.
>>
>> Ok. Have you come off your medication recently?
>
> Long time ago, actually. If they would actually work I'd be taking
> them, but they do not. No easy way out, just like in your case.

I believe what Andrzej is subtlety hinting at here is as follows:

1/ state #1: all ok
2/ action #1: you change something
3/ state #2: all NOT ok
4/ action #2: you ask someone else what they think is wrong

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

"Andrzej Rosa" <bakters RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:eonbn9$dvq$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
> Dnia 2007-01-18 Stephan Carydakis napisa³(a):
> >
> > "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >
> >> Do you ask us what to do with it? Like, do you hope that we will tell
you
> >> to go forward until your tendon snaps off? Sure. I can do that. Go
> >> at it till it snaps.
> >
> > Yeah, thats what I was hoping for. Now It's all clear to me. Thanks.
>
> I suspected that you already knew what to do, so why do you insist on
> not doing it?
>

In my OP when I said "Eventually, I couldn't even hold the phone for more
than 20 or 30 seconds (I'm that bad at the moment)." I should have said
"I'm NOT that bad at the moment". The pain is from the same area.

I realise rest is needed though as you astutely observed, I am reluctant to
totally stop training for a long period of time. I don't think I am at that
point yet.

Do you think the elbow pain on the outside of the elbow is related to
weighted dips and pullups?

<snip>

> --
> Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Steph.
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

"Stephan Carydakis" <steph777.TakeThisOut@nospam.netspace.net.au> schreef:

> Do you think the elbow pain on the outside of the elbow is related to
> weighted dips and pullups?

Does the pain dissapear when you stop doing dips and pullups?

--
Pete, The New & Improved Version

"Take your own advice: killfile. I took your advice on that subject BTW.
Your turn dude" -- Will Brink

"Problem is, I still see his/their posts 'cause
you respond to them, and that throws the balance of the universe of" -- Will
Brink
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

Dnia 2007-01-18 Stephan Carydakis napisa³(a):
>
> In my OP when I said "Eventually, I couldn't even hold the phone for more
> than 20 or 30 seconds (I'm that bad at the moment)." I should have said
> "I'm NOT that bad at the moment". The pain is from the same area.
>
> I realise rest is needed though as you astutely observed, I am reluctant to
> totally stop training for a long period of time. I don't think I am at that
> point yet.

Stop stressing your arms. Totally. Train your legs and torso with
squats and isolation moves which you can tolerate. You can do traps by
doing shrugs on a hack-machine, for example. Chest and rear delts on
pec-dec, maybe some cross-overs, maybe some grip work and forearms.
This kind of thing. If it hurts, don't do it.

Your tendons do not grow stronger when you stress them. If there is a
tear in them, your body will simply splash a patch of collagen at it
and call it a day. Scar tissue is way weaker than proper tendon, so it
does not transfer much load when you stress it again, so you have a new
tears, and more scar tissue. You must let it rest. I'm not joking.

> Do you think the elbow pain on the outside of the elbow is related to
> weighted dips and pullups?

Yes.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

"Pete (New & Improved, Version 4.08a)" <phoutstra DeleteThis @wanadoo.nl> wrote in
message news:45af97b2$0$35349$dbd4d001@news.wanadoo.nl...
> "Stephan Carydakis" <steph777 DeleteThis @nospam.netspace.net.au> schreef:
>
> > Do you think the elbow pain on the outside of the elbow is related to
> > weighted dips and pullups?
>
> Does the pain dissapear when you stop doing dips and pullups?

The pain gets better with massage and after a day off it gets noticeably
better too. I just haven't had this level of pain before and I am concerned,
hence the posting.

>
> --
> Pete, The New & Improved Version
>
> "Take your own advice: killfile. I took your advice on that subject BTW.
> Your turn dude" -- Will Brink
>
> "Problem is, I still see his/their posts 'cause
> you respond to them, and that throws the balance of the universe of" --
Will
> Brink
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

"Stephan Carydakis" <steph777.TakeThisOut@nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote in message
news:eomool$1195$1@otis.netspace.net.au...
> Hi All,
>
> I trust everyone is happy and healthy-ish?
>
> I have changed a couple of things in my training over the past couple
> of
> months to included weighted dips and hammer curls. I have begun to
> experience sharp pain in both elbows (particularly right) and at the
> distal
> end of the biceps (particularly left) kind of underneath the biceps. I
> have
> had a slack 3 weeks with 1 week totally off for rest. The elbow pain
> is the
> same type of pain I experienced about 12 years ago when I was a
> professional
> musician (bass player). I completed over 1250 gigs during a 5.5 year
> period
> and developed a RSI injury. Eventually, I couldn't even hold the phone
> for
> more than 20 or 30 seconds (I'm that bad at the moment). The biceps
> pain I
> have not experienced before. During my last massage, my masseuse got
> right
> in to the distal end of the left biceps and it was extremely painful
> to say
> the least. It did subside after massage.
>
> The biceps pain started as the type of pain that I could 'warmup'
> through
> (it used to subside) however this week I had to stop hammer curls
> after just
> the second set. My elbows seem to have worsened over the past 2 weeks
> and
> especially this week after doing weighted dips 2 days ago. Even
> sitting here
> and occasionally lifting my coffee causes a sharp but bearable pain on
> the
> outside of my right elbow.
>
> Are these signs of over-training or over-ageing? Are they tendon or
> attachment etc type strains? Should I reduce the weights I'm using for
> a
> while?

Yet another calm, cool, collected discussion on mfw, I see.

Stop doing what you recently added and see if your conditions improve -
common sense, nothing more. There are substitutes and work-arounds for
everything and I'm sure you'll find some. A good idea, IMHO, might be
to start back only with pullups and avoid the dips once your symptoms
disappear - try for a lot of short sets rather than long ones, and
minimize the rest periods to give yourself whatever total volume you're
after - again, to minimize the possibility of reinjury. Generally
speaking, dips are more problematic for most people than pullups
although it's possible that dips will work for you and pullups will
not - only time and some careful experimentation will tell. With
pullups, try various grips - pronated, supinated, and neutral - as well
as various grip widths to find what your elbows like best, and try to
keep a mix of them in your training if you can.

Good luck.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

In news:eoo2hh$1cmq$1@otis.netspace.net.au,
Stephan Carydakis <steph777 DeleteThis @nospam.netspace.net.au> typed:
> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:eonbn9$dvq$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
>> Dnia 2007-01-18 Stephan Carydakis napisa³(a):
>>>
>>> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>
>>>> Do you ask us what to do with it? Like, do you hope that we will
>>>> tell you to go forward until your tendon snaps off? Sure. I can
>>>> do that. Go at it till it snaps.
>>>
>>> Yeah, thats what I was hoping for. Now It's all clear to me. Thanks.
>>
>> I suspected that you already knew what to do, so why do you insist on
>> not doing it?
>>
>
> In my OP when I said "Eventually, I couldn't even hold the phone for
> more than 20 or 30 seconds (I'm that bad at the moment)." I should
> have said "I'm NOT that bad at the moment". The pain is from the same
> area.
>
> I realise rest is needed though as you astutely observed, I am
> reluctant to totally stop training for a long period of time. I don't
> think I am at that point yet.
>
> Do you think the elbow pain on the outside of the elbow is related to
> weighted dips and pullups?

Yes, totally, and I speak from recent experience.

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

"Shute" <Shute.RemoveThis@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:kljvq2lba9kfe2jpskn7jbuvaah3g1u0rb@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 03:43:50 +1100, "Stephan Carydakis"
> <steph777.RemoveThis@nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Pete (New & Improved, Version 4.08a)" <phoutstra.RemoveThis@wanadoo.nl> wrote in
> >message news:45af97b2$0$35349$dbd4d001@news.wanadoo.nl...
> >> "Stephan Carydakis" <steph777.RemoveThis@nospam.netspace.net.au> schreef:
> >>
> >> > Do you think the elbow pain on the outside of the elbow is related to
> >> > weighted dips and pullups?
> >>
> >> Does the pain dissapear when you stop doing dips and pullups?
> >
> >The pain gets better with massage and after a day off it gets noticeably
> >better too. I just haven't had this level of pain before and I am
concerned,
> >hence the posting.
>
> You shouldn't get any pain. Sore muscles are good. Pain is bad. You
> need to know the difference.
>

You never have pain other than muscle soreness? I would have thought that
some is inevitable considering heavy weights are used?
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps 

"Stephan Carydakis" <steph777 DeleteThis @nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote in message
news:eop1vf$1kif$1@otis.netspace.net.au...
>
> "Shute" <Shute DeleteThis @nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:kljvq2lba9kfe2jpskn7jbuvaah3g1u0rb@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 03:43:50 +1100, "Stephan Carydakis"
>> <steph777 DeleteThis @nospam.netspace.net.au> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Pete (New & Improved, Version 4.08a)" <phoutstra DeleteThis @wanadoo.nl> wrote in
>> >message news:45af97b2$0$35349$dbd4d001@news.wanadoo.nl...
>> >> "Stephan Carydakis" <steph777 DeleteThis @nospam.netspace.net.au> schreef:
>> >>
>> >> > Do you think the elbow pain on the outside of the elbow is related
>> >> > to
>> >> > weighted dips and pullups?
>> >>
>> >> Does the pain dissapear when you stop doing dips and pullups?
>> >
>> >The pain gets better with massage and after a day off it gets noticeably
>> >better too. I just haven't had this level of pain before and I am
> concerned,
>> >hence the posting.
>>
>> You shouldn't get any pain. Sore muscles are good. Pain is bad. You
>> need to know the difference.
>>
>
> You never have pain other than muscle soreness? I would have thought that
> some is inevitable considering heavy weights are used?

Um. No.

And if *these* guys told me to put down my weights -- guys who are all about
lifting -- I'd put down my weights. I'm no expert, but I really, really
think you should follow their advice. Andzrej gave some good ideas on how
to keep working out the rest of you while resting that arm.

I initially took inadequate care of some tendonitis around my left triceps
brachii and my left deltoid, and I've been paying for it ever since. I
should have put it in a sling and RICEd it from the start. Because I
didn't, and I ignored it for weeks, it has lingered for months. I've
learned to work around it, to confine myself to lifts where I have no pain,
so I've been deprived of some shoulder and tricep work that I really need,
but I finally realized that I was hurting myself and the only way it was
going to heal was if I rested it. I don't know if the damn arm is ever going
to heal, but I know that the only way it will is if I don't make it worse by
lifting with it.

And believe me, I've learned the difference between pain and DOMS. And no,
a certain amount of pain other than DOMS is *not* normal or inevitable. And
it is *quite* possible that you'll detach that bicep if you keep tearing it
up the way you are.

There may be some advantages to trying to increase the blood flow to the
affected area, but lifting is not the way to do that, and I wouldn't
recommend trying without talking to a physical therapist.

ep
 >> Stay informed about: Pain in elbows and distal end of biceps