Muscle soreness, like, dislike?

On Sep 30, 8:31 am, Prisoner at War wrote:
> On Sep 30, 7:54 am, Tom Anderson wrote:
>
>
>
> > I don't like being in pain. I put up with a little as a necessary evil,
> > but i tend to think that if i'm really hurting, i've done something
> > wrong.
>
> I rarely get real DOMS anymore, and that actually worries me because
> I've always associated it with a good hard workout. However, given
> that I'm "calming down" with age, anyway, I don't worry as much as I
> might have in the past...so it's all good; I take what I can get.
>
> I think I know "pain" from "discomfort" now and I rarely get the pain
> of DOMS these days...only the discomfort of it, which, given my one
> day on/one day off split, goes away quickly.
>
> > Sadly, i got to a point where pretty much any leg pressing of calf raising
> > would leave me in that kind of pain; i've never figured out what i'm doing
> > wrong, so i don't do leg work as much as i should now. I even get painful
> > knees when cycling (although it doesn't last after i stop), which really
> > worries me. Anyway, i digress.
>
> Bum knees cycling? That's usually a matter of pedaling on the wrong
> gear: you should be spinning your way up the hill instead of grinding
> your knees on a harder-to-pedal gear in order to get some power out of
> each "stroke"...that, and maybe given your anatomy your knees are too
> close or too far from the whachamacallit, the pedal-thinggy that
> connects the pedal to the crank-thinggy....
>
>
>
> > tom
>
> > --
> > taxidermy, high tide marks, sabotage, markets, folklore, subverting, .- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Seat height can also cause knee pain if set up incorrectly. Too low
and you may have pain on the front of the knee, too high and it will
hurt in back. Having the wrong cleat angle on clipless pedals can also
be a factor in knee pain.

Smokey
 >> Stay informed about: Muscle soreness, like, dislike? 

wrote in message

-snip-
> Seat height can also cause knee pain if set up incorrectly. Too low
> and you may have pain on the front of the knee, too high and it will
> hurt in back. Having the wrong cleat angle on clipless pedals can also
> be a factor in knee pain.
>
> Smokey

Not just seat height - the fore/aft placement of the foot on the pedal,
which is determined by the aft/fore placement of the cleat on the shoe,
is very important for most people - if the foot is too far forward on
the pedal, there is usually no problem other than lost efficiency and
the possibility of effectively having lowered the saddle, but if the
foot is too far back, knee problems often result.

I ride Speedplay pedals which have essentially unlimited float, so the
cleat angle is relatively unimportant in my situation. I highly
recommend Speedplays or similar for those with knee problems.

Best to get fit well by a good bicycle shop and then be prepared to
adjust things, either by the shop or by yourself, as necessary until you
get dialed in.

And Smokey, please don't add newsgroups to the list - cross-posting is
bad enough around here, already, and someone can start a new thread
elsewhere if they like whenever they like.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com
 >> Stay informed about: Muscle soreness, like, dislike? 

On Sat, 29 Sep 2007, Hard Bop Drums wrote:

> I am curious how most feel about this.

I don't like being in pain. I put up with a little as a necessary evil,
but i tend to think that if i'm really hurting, i've done something
wrong.

Sadly, i got to a point where pretty much any leg pressing of calf raising
would leave me in that kind of pain; i've never figured out what i'm doing
wrong, so i don't do leg work as much as i should now. I even get painful
knees when cycling (although it doesn't last after i stop), which really
worries me. Anyway, i digress.

tom

--
taxidermy, high tide marks, sabotage, markets, folklore, subverting, .
 >> Stay informed about: Muscle soreness, like, dislike? 

"Hard Bop Drums" <the next day I was just a bit sore. Had I done that extra
set, I would have been walking like I had a stick up my ass!
>
How is Will Brinks doing? Have you moved in with him yet, or are you going
to wait to make it official when you visit Hawaii next year? Post some
wedding photos.
 >> Stay informed about: Muscle soreness, like, dislike? 

Dnia Sun, 30 Sep 2007 o 13:54 GMT Tom Anderson napisa³(a):
> On Sat, 29 Sep 2007, Hard Bop Drums wrote:
>
>> I am curious how most feel about this.
>
> I don't like being in pain. I put up with a little as a necessary evil,
> but i tend to think that if i'm really hurting, i've done something
> wrong.
>
> Sadly, i got to a point where pretty much any leg pressing of calf raising
> would leave me in that kind of pain; i've never figured out what i'm doing
> wrong,

You train too infrequently and/or too hard. Do one leg related move
every time you go to the gym, and excessive soreness should go away.
Sure, some hardcore extremists could say, that it's not optimal from the
point of view of this or that, but I bet that your legs will be in much
better shape than they are now.

BTW - you don't have or need to go heavy every time, while training
frequently. Seems like a waste of time, but give it a try and see for
yourself.

> so i don't do leg work as much as i should now. I even get painful
> knees when cycling (although it doesn't last after i stop), which really
> worries me. Anyway, i digress.

I had the same problem. Getting a motorbike fixed it for me.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: Muscle soreness, like, dislike? 

On Sun, 30 Sep 2007, wrote:

> On Sep 30, 8:31 am, Prisoner at War wrote:
>> On Sep 30, 7:54 am, Tom Anderson wrote:
>>
>>> I don't like being in pain. I put up with a little as a necessary
>>> evil, but i tend to think that if i'm really hurting, i've done
>>> something wrong.
>>
>> I rarely get real DOMS anymore, and that actually worries me because
>> I've always associated it with a good hard workout. However, given
>> that I'm "calming down" with age, anyway, I don't worry as much as I
>> might have in the past...so it's all good; I take what I can get.

IME, i only get DOMS after i work a muscle that hans't been worked in a
very long time. Basically, when i started lifting, when i restarted, and
when i've added a new exercise that hit muscles that were idle before.

>>> Sadly, i got to a point where pretty much any leg pressing of calf
>>> raising would leave me in that kind of pain; i've never figured out
>>> what i'm doing wrong, so i don't do leg work as much as i should now.
>>> I even get painful knees when cycling (although it doesn't last after
>>> i stop), which really worries me. Anyway, i digress.
>>
>> Bum knees cycling? That's usually a matter of pedaling on the wrong
>> gear: you should be spinning your way up the hill instead of grinding
>> your knees on a harder-to-pedal gear in order to get some power out of
>> each "stroke"...that, and maybe given your anatomy your knees are too
>> close or too far from the whachamacallit, the pedal-thinggy that
>> connects the pedal to the crank-thinggy....
>
> Seat height can also cause knee pain if set up incorrectly. Too low and
> you may have pain on the front of the knee, too high and it will hurt in
> back. Having the wrong cleat angle on clipless pedals can also be a
> factor in knee pain.

Yebbut none of the geometry factors have changed. I think it's a
combination of putting on weight and getting out of shape. Although bad
gear use is probably also a significant factor: due to a badly-adjusted
shifter i haven't got round to fixing, my bottom two gears are
inaccessible, and whilst this doesn't matter on flats, on climbs,
especially if i have a heavy pack, it means i'm pushing too hard.

There's also a psychology thing here, in that i'd rather push really hard
(maintaining normal cadence) on a not-too-steep climb than shift down and
slow down, due to macho bullshit.

Possibly the geometry has always been suboptimal, but it's only now that
it's starting to make itself felt. I should look into this. I don't have a
local bike shop i really trust enough to sort it out better than i could
myself, though.

tom

--
On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray,
Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right
answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of
confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage
 >> Stay informed about: Muscle soreness, like, dislike? 

On Sun, 30 Sep 2007, Andrzej Rosa wrote:

> Dnia Sun, 30 Sep 2007 o 13:54 GMT Tom Anderson napisa?(a):
>> On Sat, 29 Sep 2007, Hard Bop Drums wrote:
>>
>>> I am curious how most feel about this.
>>
>> I don't like being in pain. I put up with a little as a necessary evil,
>> but i tend to think that if i'm really hurting, i've done something
>> wrong.
>>
>> Sadly, i got to a point where pretty much any leg pressing of calf
>> raising would leave me in that kind of pain; i've never figured out
>> what i'm doing wrong,
>
> You train too infrequently and/or too hard. Do one leg related move
> every time you go to the gym, and excessive soreness should go away.
> Sure, some hardcore extremists could say, that it's not optimal from the
> point of view of this or that, but I bet that your legs will be in much
> better shape than they are now.
>
> BTW - you don't have or need to go heavy every time, while training
> frequently. Seems like a waste of time, but give it a try and see for
> yourself.

So essentially, you'd suggest doing my normal leg workout less often, but
adding in some lightweight stuff every time? Interesting.

>> so i don't do leg work as much as i should now. I even get painful
>> knees when cycling (although it doesn't last after i stop), which
>> really worries me. Anyway, i digress.
>
> I had the same problem. Getting a motorbike fixed it for me.

Good, we need more organ donors.

tom

--
On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray,
Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right
answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of
confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage
 >> Stay informed about: Muscle soreness, like, dislike? 

Dnia Sun, 30 Sep 2007 o 20:10 GMT Tom Anderson napisa³(a):
> On Sun, 30 Sep 2007, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
>
>> You train too infrequently and/or too hard. Do one leg related move
>> every time you go to the gym, and excessive soreness should go away.
>> Sure, some hardcore extremists could say, that it's not optimal from the
>> point of view of this or that, but I bet that your legs will be in much
>> better shape than they are now.
>>
>> BTW - you don't have or need to go heavy every time, while training
>> frequently. Seems like a waste of time, but give it a try and see for
>> yourself.
>
> So essentially, you'd suggest doing my normal leg workout less often,

No. I suggested that you split your normal leg workout in parts and do
some of it every time you go to the gym.

Assuming that you train front squats, stiff leg deadlifts and calves on
a leg day, you could do f-squats one day, calves next day, SLDL next and
so on. You'll train legs more often, so you can't keep as high
intensity as you'd do with less frequent training, so I also suggested
that lighter days are fine.

> but adding in some lightweight stuff every time? Interesting.

Or you could do it this way too. It should work. Excessive soreness
indicates that you let your muscles become deconditioned. It doesn't
really mean that you had good workout; it rather means that you had
too much of a workout, considering your current level of adaptation to
exercise.

>>> so i don't do leg work as much as i should now. I even get painful
>>> knees when cycling (although it doesn't last after i stop), which
>>> really worries me. Anyway, i digress.
>> I had the same problem. Getting a motorbike fixed it for me.
>
> Good, we need more organ donors.

Motorcyclists aren't organ donors anymore. Pedestrians, car drivers and
passengers, tractor drivers then motorcyclists. That's how it looked
around here last time I checked. To be an organ donor you need to be
knocked on the head hard, without much damage to the torso.
Motorcyclists wear helmets (contrary to cyclists, for example...).

So do not worry. Get a real bike and save your knees.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: Muscle soreness, like, dislike? 

Hard Bop Drums wrote:
> I am curious how most feel about this. When I was younger, I used to like
> being sore as I thought it meant that I was training hard. Now that I'm a
> bit older, I really don't like being sore. I especially don't like it with
> my legs as we have stairs and going up and down is a big pain in the ass,
> both literally and figuratively ! I don't mind a little soreness,
> especially when the muscle still feels pumped and a tad sore the next day,
> but the type where just moving is painful of for the birds. Knowing how to
> listen to your body makes all the difference in the world with this too. I
> did legs the other day and was going to do another set of squats and decided
> not to. That was a great decision, as the next day I was just a bit sore.
> Had I done that extra set, I would have been walking like I had a stick up
> my ass!
>

I like just a little bit of DOMS. It makes me feel like 1) I've trained
hard enough and 2) I'm still able to exercise as vigourously as needed.
It also is a welcome distraction from the pain I'm in every day, plus it
seems to add just a little bit to my proprioception so I don't
exacerbate anything.

Ari

--
spammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply
Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow transplant. Please
volunteer to be a marrow donor and literally save someone's life:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/
 >> Stay informed about: Muscle soreness, like, dislike? 

On Oct 1, 8:35 am, Tom Anderson wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Sep 2007, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
> > Dnia Sun, 30 Sep 2007 o 20:10 GMT Tom Anderson napisa?(a):
> >> On Sun, 30 Sep 2007, Andrzej Rosa wrote:
>
> >>> You train too infrequently and/or too hard. Do one leg related move
> >>> every time you go to the gym, and excessive soreness should go away.
> >>> Sure, some hardcore extremists could say, that it's not optimal from the
> >>> point of view of this or that, but I bet that your legs will be in much
> >>> better shape than they are now.
>
> >>> BTW - you don't have or need to go heavy every time, while training
> >>> frequently. Seems like a waste of time, but give it a try and see for
> >>> yourself.
>
> >> So essentially, you'd suggest doing my normal leg workout less often,
>
> > No. I suggested that you split your normal leg workout in parts and do
> > some of it every time you go to the gym.
>
> > Assuming that you train front squats, stiff leg deadlifts and calves on
> > a leg day, you could do f-squats one day, calves next day, SLDL next and
> > so on. You'll train legs more often, so you can't keep as high
> > intensity as you'd do with less frequent training, so I also suggested
> > that lighter days are fine.
>
> Hmm.
>
> >> but adding in some lightweight stuff every time? Interesting.
>
> > Or you could do it this way too. It should work. Excessive soreness
> > indicates that you let your muscles become deconditioned. It doesn't
> > really mean that you had good workout; it rather means that you had too
> > much of a workout, considering your current level of adaptation to
> > exercise.
>
> Yes, you're right.
>
> I'm starting off by doing some lower-intensity stuff for a while, to get
> back into some kind of shape. Then i'll ramp the weight back up and see
> where it goes.
>
> tom
>
> If all else fails take a week off. When you are three score year and ten I found it was a help once in a while. The DOMS were getting to be a bother otherwise.
 >> Stay informed about: Muscle soreness, like, dislike? 

On Sep 30, 9:44 am, "Steve Freides" wrote:
>
>
> ><SNIP elaboration of Smokey's remarks>
>
> And Smokey, please don't add newsgroups to the list - cross-posting is
> bad enough around here, already, and someone can start a new thread
> elsewhere if they like whenever they like.



Smokey, all these newsgroups are on-topic; what the hell do people
like this mean when they complain about cross-posting? Absolutely
bizarre, how anal-retentive some people are. We would have never had
your comment if it weren't for my cross-posting.
 >> Stay informed about: Muscle soreness, like, dislike? 

On Mon, 1 Oct 2007, Prisoner at War wrote:

> On Sep 30, 9:44 am, "Steve Freides" wrote:
>
>>> <SNIP elaboration of Smokey's remarks>
>>
>> And Smokey, please don't add newsgroups to the list - cross-posting is
>> bad enough around here, already, and someone can start a new thread
>> elsewhere if they like whenever they like.
>
> Smokey, all these newsgroups are on-topic;

alt.support.chronic-pain?
alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent?

I don't think so.

tom

--
But for [Flavor Flav's] "YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAH BOYYYYYYYYYY"s alone he should
be given Rap Legend status. -- Nate Patrin, ILX
 >> Stay informed about: Muscle soreness, like, dislike? 

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message

> On Mon, 1 Oct 2007, Prisoner at War wrote:
>
>> On Sep 30, 9:44 am, "Steve Freides"
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> <SNIP elaboration of Smokey's remarks>
>>>
>>> And Smokey, please don't add newsgroups to the list - cross-posting
>>> is bad enough around here, already, and someone can start a new
>>> thread elsewhere if they like whenever they like.
>>
>> Smokey, all these newsgroups are on-topic;
>
> alt.support.chronic-pain?
> alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent?
>
> I don't think so.

There are some news servers that I frequent, privately run although
publicly visible, in which cross-posting is very much frowned upon (to
the point where the sysops reprimand the cross-posters and only reply to
one group, if at all), and I generally agree with that sentiment. Find
the group that's most appropriate, have the conversation there and, when
it's over, if you feel the need to ask the same or a similar question on
another group, have at it.

That said, I don't really care if mfw message are also cross-posted on
things like misc.fitness.weights and the like, but beyond that, I think
the idea of not cross-posting to widely different newsgroups is wise,
even when the subject matter could be said to apply to more than one
group.

Just my opinion.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com


> tom
>
> --
> But for [Flavor Flav's] "YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAH BOYYYYYYYYYY"s alone he
> should
> be given Rap Legend status. -- Nate Patrin, ILX
 >> Stay informed about: Muscle soreness, like, dislike?