Lifting for fat loss - high reps/low weight? low reps/high..

"Steve Freides" <steve.DeleteThis@fridayscomputer.com> writes:

> "Jason Earl" <jearl.DeleteThis@xmission.com> wrote in message
> news:8764gqrjrk.fsf@workhorse.earlhome...
>> "Steve Freides" <steve.DeleteThis@fridayscomputer.com> writes:
>>
>>> "Brian Link" <blink.DeleteThis@visi.com> wrote in message
>>> news:7el9e2li81t0rbgo2j4g6jar2drrit22hr@4ax.com...
>>>> Yes, I know, the best exercise for fat loss is cardio, but I just
>>>> can't bring myself to it. Stair masters, ellipticals, bikes, etc.
>>>> Way too boring. The best I can do is a brisk 2 mile walk around
>>>> the lake every night.
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand, I love lifting. So, accepting that I'm not
>>>> gonna see huge fat losses lifting alone, what would be the best
>>>> way to maximize fat loss by resistance training? It's my
>>>> understanding that the whole "more lean mass means more fat
>>>> burning" has been deflated here, so I'm just concentrating on the
>>>> workout itself.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks as always for any tips.
>>>
>>> The DragonDoor site does promise fat loss "without the dishonor of
>>> dieting and aerobics." The usual formula is high-rep kettlebell
>>> swings (once you've got the technique down, of course). I'm
>>> pretty sure DD just came out with their first DVD targeted
>>> specifically at fat loss. Again, poke around on their site, if
>>> you can't find it but are interested, let me know.
>>>
>>> http://www.dragondoor.com/?kbid=1022 is a link that uses my
>>> affiliate ID.
>>
>> When I said lots of one arm snatches and swings, this is what I
>> really meant. I just didn't want to be the guy that brought up
>> Pavel . Interestingly enough I just tested my 1.5 mile run and
>> it was faster than it had been in some time despite the fact that I
>> no longer run on a regular basis.
>>
>> Not that I was ever very fast, but improvement at running without
>> having to actually run is a pretty big bonus in my book.
>
> This is know on the DragonDoor forum as the "what the heck" effect.
> Welcome to the Party, Comrade!
>
>

Thanks. I feel like I have honestly been given an extra couple of
hours per week. I liked the feeling that I got from running, but I
didn't like running. I like it even less now that I typically work
out with my children. They can't keep up with me when I run, but they
like counting reps when I do swings or snatches. When it is their
turn they do deadlifts with the bell.

I've considered getting lighter bells for my wife and kids, but I
think Zac would likely kill someone if he had a bell that he could
swing. That boy is too fearless for his own good.

>> You could probably swing and snatch a dumbbell instead, but kbells
>> are more fun. I certainly am glad that I took Steve's advice and
>> picked one up.
>
> It is not the same. (I know you know that.) Close in some ways,
> not so close in others. Whether the difference is important to you
> depends on your goals. A traditional snatch is done either "dead"
> from the floor or from hang, both of which are possible with a
> kettlebell and good movements, but the basic kb snatch is the swing
> style, and swings are where the kb and the db really differ.

The real problem is that dumbbells are just too wide to safely swing
between your legs, and the handle is too narrow for two hands and too
awkward for switching hands in mid air. Dumbbell snatches are nice,
especially if you like the classic snatch where the weight stays close
to the body. I think that swing snatches are easier, and you don't
bend your elbow so you aren't tempted to turn it into some sort of
upright row variant.

The more I use my kbell the more I am convinced that it really is
somewhat magical and it isn't just an expensive gimmick. I mostly
purchased it for aesthetic reasons (I thought it would look good in my
office), but I'm becoming more of a believer all the time. I think
that you would be hard pressed to come up with a better "assistance"
exercise than the kbell snatch.

I have switched back to dumbbells for overhead presses though. The
kbell is easier to press (you can safely leave your hand wide open as
an example), but my 24kg kbell is just not heavy enough. I still warm
up at the start of my kettlebell practice with a set of 5 overhead
presses, but it's just a warmup. The only other "kettlebell"
non-ballistic kbell drill I do is the windmill. I don't know if it
helps anything, but it's a nice stretch, and it freaks out my
co-workers.

Oh, I also do the occasional halo, but I don't know where that fits
in...

> I'm just back from serving as an assistant instructor at an RKC
> instructor certification weekend - a full report at some point in
> the next few days, perhaps.

I'd certainly like to hear about it.

Jason
 >> Stay informed about: Lifting for fat loss - high reps/low weight? low reps/high.. 

"Jason Earl" <jearl.RemoveThis@xmission.com> wrote in message
news:8764gqrjrk.fsf@workhorse.earlhome...
> "Steve Freides" <steve.RemoveThis@fridayscomputer.com> writes:
>
>> "Brian Link" <blink.RemoveThis@visi.com> wrote in message
>> news:7el9e2li81t0rbgo2j4g6jar2drrit22hr@4ax.com...
>>> Yes, I know, the best exercise for fat loss is cardio, but I just
>>> can't bring myself to it. Stair masters, ellipticals, bikes, etc.
>>> Way
>>> too boring. The best I can do is a brisk 2 mile walk around the lake
>>> every night.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, I love lifting. So, accepting that I'm not gonna
>>> see huge fat losses lifting alone, what would be the best way to
>>> maximize fat loss by resistance training? It's my understanding that
>>> the whole "more lean mass means more fat burning" has been deflated
>>> here, so I'm just concentrating on the workout itself.
>>>
>>> Thanks as always for any tips.
>>
>> The DragonDoor site does promise fat loss "without the dishonor of
>> dieting and aerobics." The usual formula is high-rep kettlebell
>> swings (once you've got the technique down, of course). I'm pretty
>> sure DD just came out with their first DVD targeted specifically at
>> fat loss. Again, poke around on their site, if you can't find it
>> but are interested, let me know.
>>
>> http://www.dragondoor.com/?kbid=1022 is a link that uses my
>> affiliate ID.
>
> When I said lots of one arm snatches and swings, this is what I really
> meant. I just didn't want to be the guy that brought up Pavel .
> Interestingly enough I just tested my 1.5 mile run and it was faster
> than it had been in some time despite the fact that I no longer run on
> a regular basis.
>
> Not that I was ever very fast, but improvement at running without
> having to actually run is a pretty big bonus in my book.

This is know on the DragonDoor forum as the "what the heck" effect.
Welcome to the Party, Comrade!



> You could probably swing and snatch a dumbbell instead, but kbells are
> more fun. I certainly am glad that I took Steve's advice and picked
> one up.

It is not the same. (I know you know that.) Close in some ways, not so
close in others. Whether the difference is important to you depends on
your goals. A traditional snatch is done either "dead" from the floor
or from hang, both of which are possible with a kettlebell and good
movements, but the basic kb snatch is the swing style, and swings are
where the kb and the db really differ.

I'm just back from serving as an assistant instructor at an RKC
instructor certification weekend - a full report at some point in the
next few days, perhaps.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com
 >> Stay informed about: Lifting for fat loss - high reps/low weight? low reps/high.. 

Brian Link wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 21:15:25 -0500, "ranieri" <not now> wrote:
>
>> "Brian Link" <blink.RemoveThis@visi.com> wrote in message
>> news:7el9e2li81t0rbgo2j4g6jar2drrit22hr@4ax.com...
>>> Yes, I know, the best exercise for fat loss is cardio, but I just
>>> can't bring myself to it. Stair masters, ellipticals, bikes, etc. Way
>>> too boring. The best I can do is a brisk 2 mile walk around the lake
>>> every night.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, I love lifting. So, accepting that I'm not gonna
>>> see huge fat losses lifting alone, what would be the best way to
>>> maximize fat loss by resistance training? It's my understanding that
>>> the whole "more lean mass means more fat burning" has been deflated
>>> here, so I'm just concentrating on the workout itself.
>>>
>>> Thanks as always for any tips.
>>>
>> Brian, you haven't been paying attention - prolly spent too much time
>> spouting your political vitriol. Fat loss is much more a function of diet
>> than any rep / % scheme. Lift to get strong, diet to get lean.
>>
>>
> Well, watching current events on a daily basis has some thermogenic
> properties for me..
>
> Yes, I'm eating at a calorie deficit. My "resting metabolism" burns
> 2500 cals a day, if the trainer-tots can be believed. I shoot for 2000
> a day or slightly less. 2200/2300 is a good level I can maintain
> without pain. I'll send you my spread sheet, if you like.
>
> I'd like to accelerate the fat loss without simultaneously losing what
> lean mass I have.

So would I and so would others, but we all know
the consequences. It sounds like you understand
the program. Create a 500 calorie per day deficit
(a pound a week weight loss), mass train to spare
muscle, don't skimp on the protein, and stay the
course until you arrive. If you want to try to
push it a bit, you can employ a low-carb diet,
low-rest training, and wind sprints during your
walks around the lake. Those options are especially
useful when one has quite a bit of fat to lose.
In that situation you can bump the weight loss
up to say 2 pounds a week for awhile and still
not lose too much lean mass. But still, as hard
as it is to build muscle, you have to ask yourself
what the rush is and think it through.

> I see my wife and her friends exulting over the loss
> of sheer poundage, and given their routines and diet I just figure
> they're losing lean mass. They wonder why their dress sizes don't keep
> collapsing with all those pounds they're taking off.

It sounds like you're feeling some angst. You
know what's best, but you're being tempted by
the short term gratification of fast scale weight
loss. You need to get your goals and values
straight in your mind. Something else that
might be helpful would be to focus on measures
of progress other than scale weight.
--

> BLink
> --------------------------
> "The worst thing about censorship is [redacted]"
 >> Stay informed about: Lifting for fat loss - high reps/low weight? low reps/high.. 

"Steve Freides" <steve RemoveThis @fridayscomputer.com> writes:

> "Jason Earl" <jearl RemoveThis @xmission.com> wrote in message
> news:87ejv9q3m9.fsf@workhorse.earlhome...
>> "Steve Freides" <steve RemoveThis @fridayscomputer.com> writes:
>>
>>> "Jason Earl" <jearl RemoveThis @xmission.com> wrote in message
>>> news:8764gqrjrk.fsf@workhorse.earlhome...
>>>> "Steve Freides" <steve RemoveThis @fridayscomputer.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> "Brian Link" <blink RemoveThis @visi.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:7el9e2li81t0rbgo2j4g6jar2drrit22hr@4ax.com...
>>>>>> Yes, I know, the best exercise for fat loss is cardio, but I just
>>>>>> can't bring myself to it. Stair masters, ellipticals, bikes, etc.
>>>>>> Way too boring. The best I can do is a brisk 2 mile walk around
>>>>>> the lake every night.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On the other hand, I love lifting. So, accepting that I'm not
>>>>>> gonna see huge fat losses lifting alone, what would be the best
>>>>>> way to maximize fat loss by resistance training? It's my
>>>>>> understanding that the whole "more lean mass means more fat
>>>>>> burning" has been deflated here, so I'm just concentrating on the
>>>>>> workout itself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks as always for any tips.
>>>>>
>>>>> The DragonDoor site does promise fat loss "without the dishonor of
>>>>> dieting and aerobics." The usual formula is high-rep kettlebell
>>>>> swings (once you've got the technique down, of course). I'm
>>>>> pretty sure DD just came out with their first DVD targeted
>>>>> specifically at fat loss. Again, poke around on their site, if
>>>>> you can't find it but are interested, let me know.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.dragondoor.com/?kbid=1022 is a link that uses my
>>>>> affiliate ID.
>>>>
>>>> When I said lots of one arm snatches and swings, this is what I
>>>> really meant. I just didn't want to be the guy that brought up
>>>> Pavel . Interestingly enough I just tested my 1.5 mile run and
>>>> it was faster than it had been in some time despite the fact that I
>>>> no longer run on a regular basis.
>>>>
>>>> Not that I was ever very fast, but improvement at running without
>>>> having to actually run is a pretty big bonus in my book.
>>>
>>> This is know on the DragonDoor forum as the "what the heck" effect.
>>> Welcome to the Party, Comrade!
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Thanks. I feel like I have honestly been given an extra couple of
>> hours per week. I liked the feeling that I got from running, but I
>> didn't like running. I like it even less now that I typically work
>> out with my children. They can't keep up with me when I run, but they
>> like counting reps when I do swings or snatches. When it is their
>> turn they do deadlifts with the bell.
>>
>> I've considered getting lighter bells for my wife and kids, but I
>> think Zac would likely kill someone if he had a bell that he could
>> swing. That boy is too fearless for his own good.
>
> They come in all sorts of small sizes now - 4, 6, 8 kg that are
> rubber coated. Don't know what age/size your kids are. My kids did
> a kb competition in 2003 along with me and my wife. My youngest was
> 6 years old then and he used 4 kg bells, and my oldest, who was 10,
> used 12 kg.

My kids are 7, 5, and 3 (girl, boy, girl). The two oldest are the
ones that practice with me. Now that I think about it Zac is plenty
respectful of my other weights. If I left the kbells in my "fort" so
that he didn't play with it when he was unsupervised I think some
smaller kbells for the wife and kids might just work.

>>>> You could probably swing and snatch a dumbbell instead, but
>>>> kbells are more fun. I certainly am glad that I took Steve's
>>>> advice and picked one up.
>>>
>>> It is not the same. (I know you know that.) Close in some ways,
>>> not so close in others. Whether the difference is important to
>>> you depends on your goals. A traditional snatch is done either
>>> "dead" from the floor or from hang, both of which are possible
>>> with a kettlebell and good movements, but the basic kb snatch is
>>> the swing style, and swings are where the kb and the db really
>>> differ.
>>
>> The real problem is that dumbbells are just too wide to safely
>> swing between your legs, and the handle is too narrow for two hands
>> and too awkward for switching hands in mid air. Dumbbell snatches
>> are nice, especially if you like the classic snatch where the
>> weight stays close to the body. I think that swing snatches are
>> easier, and you don't bend your elbow so you aren't tempted to turn
>> it into some sort of upright row variant.
>
> You actually do bend the elbow doing kb snatches, at least most
> folks do, and they are now teaching a kb-specific high pull as a
> learning tool along the way to mastering the snatch. But, having
> said that, you're really right. The elbow bend is completely
> different - it's still basically a swing but you "tame the arc" to
> keep it closer to your body in the interest of efficiency. At least
> you can do that, and most do. My point is that you're just slightly
> redirecting the force, which comes from hip snap and not elbow/trap
> pull. Some do train dead and hang snatches with kettebells - they
> very much resemble the dumbbell versions IMHO.

It's possible that I am just doing kb snatches wrong. My arm stays
pretty straight. On second thought. I just watched the 24kg Snatch x
20-20 video on your site, and your elbow doesn't bend much either.

Thanks for the video, by the way.

>> The more I use my kbell the more I am convinced that it really is
>> somewhat magical and it isn't just an expensive gimmick.
>
> I won't argue with you there. FWIW, I've been counting on the
> "magic" factor to help me DL a new PR in December. I quit DL'ing a
> couple of months ago and won't pick it up again for another couple
> of months. My substitute is the kb snatch for high reps, which for
> me means a 1-3 sets of 20-30 reps each side with a 24 kg, done
> towards the end of my workout. I've done this before and it's
> worked out for me well, but as my 1RM gets higher, I'm not sure if
> it's going to keep working.

Yikes. 1-3 sets with 20-30 reps each side! That's a lot of snatches.
I'm pretty sure I can't do 30 reps with one hand for a single set,
much less multiple sets.

I would never have guessed that high volume kbell snatches would be
good preparation for max deadlift attempts. That sounds ridiculously
counterintuitive.

>> I mostly purchased it for aesthetic reasons (I thought it would
>> look good in my office), but I'm becoming more of a believer all
>> the time. I think that you would be hard pressed to come up with a
>> better "assistance" exercise than the kbell snatch.
>>
>> I have switched back to dumbbells for overhead presses though. The
>> kbell is easier to press (you can safely leave your hand wide open
>> as an example), but my 24kg kbell is just not heavy enough. I
>> still warm up at the start of my kettlebell practice with a set of
>> 5 overhead presses, but it's just a warmup. The only other
>> "kettlebell" non-ballistic kbell drill I do is the windmill. I
>> don't know if it helps anything, but it's a nice stretch, and it
>> freaks out my co-workers.
>
> All you need is a heavier kettlebell - problem solved. What sort of
> weight are you using for dumbbell presses, and what sort of press
> are you doing?

One armed military press. I've tried the bent press and the side
press, but I can't tell them apart . I am currently doing sets of 3
with 65 pounds. This trick isn't part of my PTTP workout, but is just
something I do when I walk past the dumbbell. Usually I do it once or
twice a day. I usually follow it with a set of pullups.

Now, theoretically I could get a 32kg kbell (and a 40kg bell while I
am at it), but I just don't think that the kbells are quire as magical
for overhead presses. They are easier to press, without doubt, but
they are also far more expensive.

>> Oh, I also do the occasional halo, but I don't know where that fits
>> in...
>
> That's a very cool drill that's only a recent addition for me. I
> tend to do them with a light weight as a warmup or cooldown.

You're the one that shared the drill with me. I like it. I tend to
do it as a warmup. It's too difficult for me with a 24kg bell after I
have done snatches.

>>> I'm just back from serving as an assistant instructor at an RKC
>>> instructor certification weekend - a full report at some point in
>>> the next few days, perhaps.
>>
>> I'd certainly like to hear about it.
>
> One story - I watched a professional handball player from Slovenia
> who weighs around 90 kg (200 lbs.) at 6'3" or so, clean and press a
> 48 kg kettlebell while standing on one foot - he broke a bone in his
> foot a few days ago and was in a cast up to his knee. One-legged
> clean, one-legged press, 106 lbs. - pretty awesome. The kettlebell
> looked like a slightly smaller basketball.

Stories like that make me want to eat my liver. In a good way...

Jason
 >> Stay informed about: Lifting for fat loss - high reps/low weight? low reps/high.. 

"Jason Earl" <jearl.DeleteThis@xmission.com> wrote in message
news:87ejv9q3m9.fsf@workhorse.earlhome...
> "Steve Freides" <steve.DeleteThis@fridayscomputer.com> writes:
>
>> "Jason Earl" <jearl.DeleteThis@xmission.com> wrote in message
>> news:8764gqrjrk.fsf@workhorse.earlhome...
>>> "Steve Freides" <steve.DeleteThis@fridayscomputer.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> "Brian Link" <blink.DeleteThis@visi.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:7el9e2li81t0rbgo2j4g6jar2drrit22hr@4ax.com...
>>>>> Yes, I know, the best exercise for fat loss is cardio, but I just
>>>>> can't bring myself to it. Stair masters, ellipticals, bikes, etc.
>>>>> Way too boring. The best I can do is a brisk 2 mile walk around
>>>>> the lake every night.
>>>>>
>>>>> On the other hand, I love lifting. So, accepting that I'm not
>>>>> gonna see huge fat losses lifting alone, what would be the best
>>>>> way to maximize fat loss by resistance training? It's my
>>>>> understanding that the whole "more lean mass means more fat
>>>>> burning" has been deflated here, so I'm just concentrating on the
>>>>> workout itself.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks as always for any tips.
>>>>
>>>> The DragonDoor site does promise fat loss "without the dishonor of
>>>> dieting and aerobics." The usual formula is high-rep kettlebell
>>>> swings (once you've got the technique down, of course). I'm
>>>> pretty sure DD just came out with their first DVD targeted
>>>> specifically at fat loss. Again, poke around on their site, if
>>>> you can't find it but are interested, let me know.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.dragondoor.com/?kbid=1022 is a link that uses my
>>>> affiliate ID.
>>>
>>> When I said lots of one arm snatches and swings, this is what I
>>> really meant. I just didn't want to be the guy that brought up
>>> Pavel . Interestingly enough I just tested my 1.5 mile run and
>>> it was faster than it had been in some time despite the fact that I
>>> no longer run on a regular basis.
>>>
>>> Not that I was ever very fast, but improvement at running without
>>> having to actually run is a pretty big bonus in my book.
>>
>> This is know on the DragonDoor forum as the "what the heck" effect.
>> Welcome to the Party, Comrade!
>>
>>
>
> Thanks. I feel like I have honestly been given an extra couple of
> hours per week. I liked the feeling that I got from running, but I
> didn't like running. I like it even less now that I typically work
> out with my children. They can't keep up with me when I run, but they
> like counting reps when I do swings or snatches. When it is their
> turn they do deadlifts with the bell.
>
> I've considered getting lighter bells for my wife and kids, but I
> think Zac would likely kill someone if he had a bell that he could
> swing. That boy is too fearless for his own good.

They come in all sorts of small sizes now - 4, 6, 8 kg that are rubber
coated. Don't know what age/size your kids are. My kids did a kb
competition in 2003 along with me and my wife. My youngest was 6 years
old then and he used 4 kg bells, and my oldest, who was 10, used 12 kg.

>>> You could probably swing and snatch a dumbbell instead, but kbells
>>> are more fun. I certainly am glad that I took Steve's advice and
>>> picked one up.
>>
>> It is not the same. (I know you know that.) Close in some ways,
>> not so close in others. Whether the difference is important to you
>> depends on your goals. A traditional snatch is done either "dead"
>> from the floor or from hang, both of which are possible with a
>> kettlebell and good movements, but the basic kb snatch is the swing
>> style, and swings are where the kb and the db really differ.
>
> The real problem is that dumbbells are just too wide to safely swing
> between your legs, and the handle is too narrow for two hands and too
> awkward for switching hands in mid air. Dumbbell snatches are nice,
> especially if you like the classic snatch where the weight stays close
> to the body. I think that swing snatches are easier, and you don't
> bend your elbow so you aren't tempted to turn it into some sort of
> upright row variant.

You actually do bend the elbow doing kb snatches, at least most folks
do, and they are now teaching a kb-specific high pull as a learning tool
along the way to mastering the snatch. But, having said that, you're
really right. The elbow bend is completely different - it's still
basically a swing but you "tame the arc" to keep it closer to your body
in the interest of efficiency. At least you can do that, and most do.
My point is that you're just slightly redirecting the force, which comes
from hip snap and not elbow/trap pull. Some do train dead and hang
snatches with kettebells - they very much resemble the dumbbell versions
IMHO.

> The more I use my kbell the more I am convinced that it really is
> somewhat magical and it isn't just an expensive gimmick.

I won't argue with you there. FWIW, I've been counting on the "magic"
factor to help me DL a new PR in December. I quit DL'ing a couple of
months ago and won't pick it up again for another couple of months. My
substitute is the kb snatch for high reps, which for me means a 1-3 sets
of 20-30 reps each side with a 24 kg, done towards the end of my
workout. I've done this before and it's worked out for me well, but as
my 1RM gets higher, I'm not sure if it's going to keep working.

> I mostly
> purchased it for aesthetic reasons (I thought it would look good in my
> office), but I'm becoming more of a believer all the time. I think
> that you would be hard pressed to come up with a better "assistance"
> exercise than the kbell snatch.
>
> I have switched back to dumbbells for overhead presses though. The
> kbell is easier to press (you can safely leave your hand wide open as
> an example), but my 24kg kbell is just not heavy enough. I still warm
> up at the start of my kettlebell practice with a set of 5 overhead
> presses, but it's just a warmup. The only other "kettlebell"
> non-ballistic kbell drill I do is the windmill. I don't know if it
> helps anything, but it's a nice stretch, and it freaks out my
> co-workers.

All you need is a heavier kettlebell - problem solved. What sort of
weight are you using for dumbbell presses, and what sort of press are
you doing?

> Oh, I also do the occasional halo, but I don't know where that fits
> in...

That's a very cool drill that's only a recent addition for me. I tend
to do them with a light weight as a warmup or cooldown.

>> I'm just back from serving as an assistant instructor at an RKC
>> instructor certification weekend - a full report at some point in
>> the next few days, perhaps.
>
> I'd certainly like to hear about it.

One story - I watched a professional handball player from Slovenia who
weighs around 90 kg (200 lbs.) at 6'3" or so, clean and press a 48 kg
kettlebell while standing on one foot - he broke a bone in his foot a
few days ago and was in a cast up to his knee. One-legged clean,
one-legged press, 106 lbs. - pretty awesome. The kettlebell looked like
a slightly smaller basketball.

> Jason

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com
 >> Stay informed about: Lifting for fat loss - high reps/low weight? low reps/high.. 

"Jen" <anyofusNo.DeleteThis@SPAMbigpond.net.au> wrote in message news:LLTFg.14862
> What's the difference between dips, pull-ups, and chin-ups?
>
> Jen

A dip is a tricep exercise. You are hanging onto handles at your waist
level and "dipping" your body weight down and up with triceps. Pull up is
an overhanded version of the chinup...
 >> Stay informed about: Lifting for fat loss - high reps/low weight? low reps/high.. 

oregonchick wrote:
> "Jen"wrote
> > What's the difference between dips, pull-ups, and chin-ups?
> >
> > Jen
>
> A dip is a tricep exercise. You are hanging onto handles at
> your waist level and "dipping" your body weight down and up
> with triceps.

http://exrx.net/WeightExercises/Triceps/ASTriDip.html

> Pull up is an overhanded version of the chinup...

http://exrx.net/WeightExercises/LatissimusDorsi/AsPullup.html
http://exrx.net/WeightExercises/LatissimusDorsi/AsUnderhandChinup.html

--
Curt
 >> Stay informed about: Lifting for fat loss - high reps/low weight? low reps/high.. 

Jen wrote:
> "Curt James" wrote
> > oregonchick wrote:
> >> "Jen"wrote
> >> > What's the difference between dips, pull-ups, and chin-ups?
> >>
> >> A dip is a tricep exercise. You are hanging onto handles at
> >> your waist level and "dipping" your body weight down and up
> >> with triceps.
> >
> > http://exrx.net/WeightExercises/Triceps/ASTriDip.html
> >
> >> Pull up is an overhanded version of the chinup...
> >
> > http://exrx.net/WeightExercises/LatissimusDorsi/AsPullup.html
> > http://exrx.net/WeightExercises/LatissimusDorsi/AsUnderhandChinup.html
>
> Thanks. I did actually know them, just couldn't picture them.

Cool.

(looks at clock)

It's almost 3 a.m. here.

This is my huge problem with extended periods of time off.

....

If I have no reason to get up early in the a.m. Say, oh, I don't know,
WORK! I tend to stay up until the wee hours of the morning. Grrr.
Recuperation and rest are as important as the exercise and diet part,
right? I keep telling myself just that.

Ahem.

By way of trivia.

Hmm. And, speaking of trivia, Snakes on a Plane kicked some major
booty. More comedy than anything else, but good stuff. Fun.

Not for the kiddies due to nudity and language and disturbing images
and animal cruelty and... never mind. This is a HORRIBLE film.

The @#$%er #@%^&ing quote by Samuel L. Jackson, though, is worth the
cost of admission, imo.

--
Curt
 >> Stay informed about: Lifting for fat loss - high reps/low weight? low reps/high.. 

"Curt James" <curtjames.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1156227570.900011.230370@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
> oregonchick wrote:
>> "Jen"wrote
>> > What's the difference between dips, pull-ups, and chin-ups?
>> >
>> > Jen
>>
>> A dip is a tricep exercise. You are hanging onto handles at
>> your waist level and "dipping" your body weight down and up
>> with triceps.
>
> http://exrx.net/WeightExercises/Triceps/ASTriDip.html
>
>> Pull up is an overhanded version of the chinup...
>
> http://exrx.net/WeightExercises/LatissimusDorsi/AsPullup.html
> http://exrx.net/WeightExercises/LatissimusDorsi/AsUnderhandChinup.html


Thanks. I did actually know them, just couldn't picture them.
 >> Stay informed about: Lifting for fat loss - high reps/low weight? low reps/high.. 

"Jason Earl" <jearl.RemoveThis@xmission.com> wrote in message
news:8764glpuyb.fsf@workhorse.earlhome...
> "Steve Freides" <steve.RemoveThis@fridayscomputer.com> writes:
>
>> "Jason Earl" <jearl.RemoveThis@xmission.com> wrote in message
>> news:87ejv9q3m9.fsf@workhorse.earlhome...
>>> "Steve Freides" <steve.RemoveThis@fridayscomputer.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> "Jason Earl" <jearl.RemoveThis@xmission.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:8764gqrjrk.fsf@workhorse.earlhome...
>>>>> "Steve Freides" <steve.RemoveThis@fridayscomputer.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Brian Link" <blink.RemoveThis@visi.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:7el9e2li81t0rbgo2j4g6jar2drrit22hr@4ax.com...
>>>>>>> Yes, I know, the best exercise for fat loss is cardio, but I
>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>> can't bring myself to it. Stair masters, ellipticals, bikes,
>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>> Way too boring. The best I can do is a brisk 2 mile walk around
>>>>>>> the lake every night.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the other hand, I love lifting. So, accepting that I'm not
>>>>>>> gonna see huge fat losses lifting alone, what would be the best
>>>>>>> way to maximize fat loss by resistance training? It's my
>>>>>>> understanding that the whole "more lean mass means more fat
>>>>>>> burning" has been deflated here, so I'm just concentrating on
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> workout itself.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks as always for any tips.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The DragonDoor site does promise fat loss "without the dishonor
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> dieting and aerobics." The usual formula is high-rep kettlebell
>>>>>> swings (once you've got the technique down, of course). I'm
>>>>>> pretty sure DD just came out with their first DVD targeted
>>>>>> specifically at fat loss. Again, poke around on their site, if
>>>>>> you can't find it but are interested, let me know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.dragondoor.com/?kbid=1022 is a link that uses my
>>>>>> affiliate ID.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I said lots of one arm snatches and swings, this is what I
>>>>> really meant. I just didn't want to be the guy that brought up
>>>>> Pavel . Interestingly enough I just tested my 1.5 mile run and
>>>>> it was faster than it had been in some time despite the fact that
>>>>> I
>>>>> no longer run on a regular basis.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not that I was ever very fast, but improvement at running without
>>>>> having to actually run is a pretty big bonus in my book.
>>>>
>>>> This is know on the DragonDoor forum as the "what the heck" effect.
>>>> Welcome to the Party, Comrade!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks. I feel like I have honestly been given an extra couple of
>>> hours per week. I liked the feeling that I got from running, but I
>>> didn't like running. I like it even less now that I typically work
>>> out with my children. They can't keep up with me when I run, but
>>> they
>>> like counting reps when I do swings or snatches. When it is their
>>> turn they do deadlifts with the bell.
>>>
>>> I've considered getting lighter bells for my wife and kids, but I
>>> think Zac would likely kill someone if he had a bell that he could
>>> swing. That boy is too fearless for his own good.
>>
>> They come in all sorts of small sizes now - 4, 6, 8 kg that are
>> rubber coated. Don't know what age/size your kids are. My kids did
>> a kb competition in 2003 along with me and my wife. My youngest was
>> 6 years old then and he used 4 kg bells, and my oldest, who was 10,
>> used 12 kg.
>
> My kids are 7, 5, and 3 (girl, boy, girl). The two oldest are the
> ones that practice with me. Now that I think about it Zac is plenty
> respectful of my other weights. If I left the kbells in my "fort" so
> that he didn't play with it when he was unsupervised I think some
> smaller kbells for the wife and kids might just work.
>
>>>>> You could probably swing and snatch a dumbbell instead, but
>>>>> kbells are more fun. I certainly am glad that I took Steve's
>>>>> advice and picked one up.
>>>>
>>>> It is not the same. (I know you know that.) Close in some ways,
>>>> not so close in others. Whether the difference is important to
>>>> you depends on your goals. A traditional snatch is done either
>>>> "dead" from the floor or from hang, both of which are possible
>>>> with a kettlebell and good movements, but the basic kb snatch is
>>>> the swing style, and swings are where the kb and the db really
>>>> differ.
>>>
>>> The real problem is that dumbbells are just too wide to safely
>>> swing between your legs, and the handle is too narrow for two hands
>>> and too awkward for switching hands in mid air. Dumbbell snatches
>>> are nice, especially if you like the classic snatch where the
>>> weight stays close to the body. I think that swing snatches are
>>> easier, and you don't bend your elbow so you aren't tempted to turn
>>> it into some sort of upright row variant.
>>
>> You actually do bend the elbow doing kb snatches, at least most
>> folks do, and they are now teaching a kb-specific high pull as a
>> learning tool along the way to mastering the snatch. But, having
>> said that, you're really right. The elbow bend is completely
>> different - it's still basically a swing but you "tame the arc" to
>> keep it closer to your body in the interest of efficiency. At least
>> you can do that, and most do. My point is that you're just slightly
>> redirecting the force, which comes from hip snap and not elbow/trap
>> pull. Some do train dead and hang snatches with kettebells - they
>> very much resemble the dumbbell versions IMHO.
>
> It's possible that I am just doing kb snatches wrong. My arm stays
> pretty straight. On second thought. I just watched the 24kg Snatch x
> 20-20 video on your site, and your elbow doesn't bend much either.

Ah, OK, here's what you need to know. In martial arts, there is usually
a distinction made between internal and external styles, the former
often called "soft" and the latter "hard." A hard style martial art is
one where at the beginning you focus on being really tough/tight/strong,
and as you improve, you learn to turn the tension on and off more, when
to relax, etc. Tae Kwon Do is an example of a hard style martial art -
I studied that for two years and got about halfway to a black belt.

A soft or internal style is usually started with standing meditation
practice and walking, and gradually evolves into something that could
hurt someone. That old David Carradine TV series, Kung Fu, is about an
internal style. Some internal styles do just the soft parts and don't
become "martial", like the Tai Chi classes you see around.

The snatches you see me doing in the 20+20 video are from a few years
ago and in the hard style of kb lifting. That's what we teach everyone
first, it's what I learned first, and I feel it's the right way to
start - the weight is heavy enough cause injury with improper technique,
and you want to master the hard style before trying it another way
unless you're willing to use a very light weight.

If you look at the very next link on the home page, the 20-15-10-5
snatch video, that's in the soft or Girevoy Sport style. My technique
is far from perfect but you will clearly get the difference - the effort
is only what's required, the bell sort of wraps around the hand at the
top, and the pace is slower. That's what I do now almost exclusively
because I still hope to do some more GS competitions, and that's what
you need if you expect to do 5 minutes each arm non-stop, which is what
you strive for in competition - you're given 10:00 and allowed only a
single arm switch, and you never put the bell down.

> Thanks for the video, by the way.

No problemo, dude.

>>> The more I use my kbell the more I am convinced that it really is
>>> somewhat magical and it isn't just an expensive gimmick.
>>
>> I won't argue with you there. FWIW, I've been counting on the
>> "magic" factor to help me DL a new PR in December. I quit DL'ing a
>> couple of months ago and won't pick it up again for another couple
>> of months. My substitute is the kb snatch for high reps, which for
>> me means a 1-3 sets of 20-30 reps each side with a 24 kg, done
>> towards the end of my workout. I've done this before and it's
>> worked out for me well, but as my 1RM gets higher, I'm not sure if
>> it's going to keep working.
>
> Yikes. 1-3 sets with 20-30 reps each side! That's a lot of snatches.
> I'm pretty sure I can't do 30 reps with one hand for a single set,
> much less multiple sets.
>
> I would never have guessed that high volume kbell snatches would be
> good preparation for max deadlift attempts. That sounds ridiculously
> counterintuitive.

There is nothing DL-specific in kb snatches, but both are exercises that
focus on the "posterior chain" and I think that's why it works for me.
My lower back is always pleasantly tight after a set of kb snatches, and
I could say the same thing about a set of DL's. Same thing goes for
glutes and hamstrings - lots of work for both in either movement. It is
possible, if you don't take advantage of the swing to really load the
posterior chain and do more of a hang snatch, to not have the focus be
quite so much on the posterior chain and get more quad involvement, but
that's not the way I do them. I make an effort, with each snatch rep,
to think of the back swing like I'm a center in American football, and I
"hike" the kettlebell.

>>> I mostly purchased it for aesthetic reasons (I thought it would
>>> look good in my office), but I'm becoming more of a believer all
>>> the time. I think that you would be hard pressed to come up with a
>>> better "assistance" exercise than the kbell snatch.
>>>
>>> I have switched back to dumbbells for overhead presses though. The
>>> kbell is easier to press (you can safely leave your hand wide open
>>> as an example), but my 24kg kbell is just not heavy enough. I
>>> still warm up at the start of my kettlebell practice with a set of
>>> 5 overhead presses, but it's just a warmup. The only other
>>> "kettlebell" non-ballistic kbell drill I do is the windmill. I
>>> don't know if it helps anything, but it's a nice stretch, and it
>>> freaks out my co-workers.
>>
>> All you need is a heavier kettlebell - problem solved. What sort of
>> weight are you using for dumbbell presses, and what sort of press
>> are you doing?
>
> One armed military press. I've tried the bent press and the side
> press, but I can't tell them apart . I am currently doing sets of 3
> with 65 pounds. This trick isn't part of my PTTP workout, but is just
> something I do when I walk past the dumbbell. Usually I do it once or
> twice a day. I usually follow it with a set of pullups.
>
> Now, theoretically I could get a 32kg kbell (and a 40kg bell while I
> am at it), but I just don't think that the kbells are quire as magical
> for overhead presses. They are easier to press, without doubt, but
> they are also far more expensive.

OK. A guy your size would eventually have fun snatching the 32 kg
kettlebell for reps. I've managed about 15 reps each hand with it
without training specifically for that, and in competitions, that's
what's used, even for guys lighter than me, until you get to Masters at
age 40. The numbers put up by guy who weigh only 60 kg (132 lbs.) with
a 32 kg are pretty amazing - they don't actually go up all that much as
bodyweight increases. And all sizes of human have to perform jerks for
reps with two 32 kg kettlebells, which is the case of the 60 kg. guys is
more than their bodyweight. The snatch record is 71 each hand in the
space of 10:00 for the 60 kg bodyweight class.

But, hey, whatever works for you is cool.

>>> Oh, I also do the occasional halo, but I don't know where that fits
>>> in...
>>
>> That's a very cool drill that's only a recent addition for me. I
>> tend to do them with a light weight as a warmup or cooldown.
>
> You're the one that shared the drill with me. I like it. I tend to
> do it as a warmup. It's too difficult for me with a 24kg bell after I
> have done snatches.

As you're doing it sounds fine to me. I do it with a 24 sometimes as
well, it's just that, as I'm sure you well know, there's a limit to how
many things you can do, so I chose to work on this one pretty rarely.

>>>> I'm just back from serving as an assistant instructor at an RKC
>>>> instructor certification weekend - a full report at some point in
>>>> the next few days, perhaps.
>>>
>>> I'd certainly like to hear about it.
>>
>> One story - I watched a professional handball player from Slovenia
>> who weighs around 90 kg (200 lbs.) at 6'3" or so, clean and press a
>> 48 kg kettlebell while standing on one foot - he broke a bone in his
>> foot a few days ago and was in a cast up to his knee. One-legged
>> clean, one-legged press, 106 lbs. - pretty awesome. The kettlebell
>> looked like a slightly smaller basketball.
>
> Stories like that make me want to eat my liver. In a good way...

It was a great weekend. The above-mentioned person was scheduled to
come as an assistant instructor, and they asked me to take his place
after he got hurt, but he came, anyway, well above and beyond the call
of duty. I helped carry around a chair for him and the like. He also
did 38 snatches each hand with a 24 kg while seated in a chair - I
wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it. If you want to find a
way to make your kettlebell snatches harder, trying sitting in a chair
with one leg stretched straight out in front of you. I did a couple of
reps each side, just barely, just to experience how hard it was to do.

> Jason

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com
 >> Stay informed about: Lifting for fat loss - high reps/low weight? low reps/high.. 

"Steve Freides" <steve DeleteThis @fridayscomputer.com> writes:

> "Jason Earl" <jearl DeleteThis @xmission.com> wrote in message
> news:8764glpuyb.fsf@workhorse.earlhome...
>> "Steve Freides" <steve DeleteThis @fridayscomputer.com> writes:

<big snip>

>> It's possible that I am just doing kb snatches wrong. My arm stays
>> pretty straight. On second thought. I just watched the 24kg
>> Snatch x 20-20 video on your site, and your elbow doesn't bend much
>> either.
>
> Ah, OK, here's what you need to know. In martial arts, there is
> usually a distinction made between internal and external styles, the
> former often called "soft" and the latter "hard." A hard style
> martial art is one where at the beginning you focus on being really
> tough/tight/strong, and as you improve, you learn to turn the
> tension on and off more, when to relax, etc. Tae Kwon Do is an
> example of a hard style martial art - I studied that for two years
> and got about halfway to a black belt.

I'll pretend that I know what you are talking about in the hopes that
it becomes clearer later on. Just imagine me nodding my head a lot.

> A soft or internal style is usually started with standing meditation
> practice and walking, and gradually evolves into something that
> could hurt someone. That old David Carradine TV series, Kung Fu, is
> about an internal style. Some internal styles do just the soft
> parts and don't become "martial", like the Tai Chi classes you see
> around.

Some sort of "grasshopper" joke would go well here. I do appreciate
the instruction, but I'm pretty sure that a sensei 70 pounds lighter
than me would have to come up with a somewhat more appropriate
nickname.

> The snatches you see me doing in the 20+20 video are from a few
> years ago and in the hard style of kb lifting. That's what we teach
> everyone first, it's what I learned first, and I feel it's the right
> way to start - the weight is heavy enough cause injury with improper
> technique, and you want to master the hard style before trying it
> another way unless you're willing to use a very light weight.

And the light dawns. I took a look at your other kb snatch video, but
the thing is like seven minutes long, it only shows from the shoulders
up, and the light isn't so good. So I didn't pay as much attention to
it.

> If you look at the very next link on the home page, the 20-15-10-5
> snatch video, that's in the soft or Girevoy Sport style. My
> technique is far from perfect but you will clearly get the
> difference - the effort is only what's required, the bell sort of
> wraps around the hand at the top, and the pace is slower. That's
> what I do now almost exclusively because I still hope to do some
> more GS competitions, and that's what you need if you expect to do 5
> minutes each arm non-stop, which is what you strive for in
> competition - you're given 10:00 and allowed only a single arm
> switch, and you never put the bell down.

I can see the difference. Although I would really like to see how you
catch the bell at the bottom and swing it back up. I'll have to
experiment a bit.

I tried 10:00 minutes of kbell snatches, and there is no question that
it becomes a completely different ordeal. Of course, I switched hands
whenever I felt like it (I didn't know the official rules), and I also
put the bell down (a lot).

>> Thanks for the video, by the way.
>
> No problemo, dude.

They really are helpful.

<snip explanation of deadlift preparation>

>> Yikes. 1-3 sets with 20-30 reps each side! That's a lot of
>> snatches. I'm pretty sure I can't do 30 reps with one hand for a
>> single set, much less multiple sets.
>>
>> I would never have guessed that high volume kbell snatches would be
>> good preparation for max deadlift attempts. That sounds
>> ridiculously counterintuitive.
>
> There is nothing DL-specific in kb snatches, but both are exercises
> that focus on the "posterior chain" and I think that's why it works
> for me. My lower back is always pleasantly tight after a set of kb
> snatches, and I could say the same thing about a set of DL's. Same
> thing goes for glutes and hamstrings - lots of work for both in
> either movement. It is possible, if you don't take advantage of the
> swing to really load the posterior chain and do more of a hang
> snatch, to not have the focus be quite so much on the posterior
> chain and get more quad involvement, but that's not the way I do
> them. I make an effort, with each snatch rep, to think of the back
> swing like I'm a center in American football, and I "hike" the
>