Leg curling vs. squatting

"Shute" <Shute.RemoveThis@nowhere.com> schreef:

>>I woulda thought that leg curling would kill the hams, while squats etc.
>>would get mebbe the ass/lower back.
>>Any idears?

> From what I read hamstrings are worked with hip movement. The hips
> don't move during a leg curl so they are not an ideal lift.

Bullshit.

Which muscle is responsible for pulling the lower legs towards the hips?

HINT;

Its NOT the deltoids...

> They do work the hamstrings but probably not as heavy as the squat does.

No.

> Other exercises for hamstrings are Stiff Legged Deadlift, Good
> Morning, Standard Deadlifts, and Romanian Deadlifts.

Yes.
At the hip side of that muscle. Same musclke, different joint. Thank you.

> I don't really know which of these is best for the hams.

How many pairs of muscles do we have to pull the lower legs towards the
hips?

HINT;

Its less the 2.

How many muscles do we have for hip joint extension?

HINT;

Its less than 3 but more than 1.

> They are much harder lifts
> to learn the leg curl and I haven't mastered any of them yet.

Yes, they are more difficult.

Let me share a secret with you;

<whisper>

com plexi ty of a cer tain move ment doesnt mean that muscl es in volved in
that move ment are gro wing bett ter just be cause there is more com plexi
ty

Dont tell anyone.

----
Pete
 >> Stay informed about: Leg curling vs. squatting 

"Proctologically Violated©®" <entropic3.14decay DeleteThis @optonline2.718.net> schreef:

> So what does a leg curl do, then?

The hams shorten to pull the lower leg towards the hips.
And when a muscle shortens it excerts force.

Thats the bottom line.

----
Pete
 >> Stay informed about: Leg curling vs. squatting 

"JMW" <jmwilliams.TakeThisOut@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> schreef:


>>From what I read hamstrings are worked with hip movement. The hips
>>don't move during a leg curl so they are not an ideal lift. They do
>>work the hamstrings but probably not as heavy as the squat does.

> Both work the hamstrings. Hamstrings are two-joint "bi-articulate"
> muscles, with attachments above the hip joint and below the knee.
> They both flex the knee and extend the hip. Leg curls and any hip
> extension exercise will both work the hams. Squats work a lot more
> muscle groups, though.

Agreed!

John, do you really think it matters at what end the hams are shortened?

----
Pete
 >> Stay informed about: Leg curling vs. squatting 

Pete wrote:
> Perhaps that was a bad example because you guys use a lot more in the dead
> as "we" do in rows.
> Heaviest row i EVER did was 130 kilos in the cable and 70 kilo with DBs

You're kidding me...

I did 130kg cable rows last night. You're talking normal seated rows,
right? I'd have thought you were using more than that.


Stu
 >> Stay informed about: Leg curling vs. squatting 

Hobbes wrote:
> You proabably aren't squatting ass-to-the-grass either, are you?
>
> If you were your hamstrings would be taxed. I mean going heavy and down
> to where your hamstrings touch your calves.
>
> Most people I know who say squats don't work hamstrings are doing
> partial squats.

Define partial...

I call a partial squat anything less than parallel, but it sounds to me
like you'd call partial anything less than attg?

I squat below parallel, but yes I could go deeper, ie until my
hamstrings and calves are squashed together... which is probably going
about 2-3" further. Maybe next week I'll try full attg squats and see
how I go, but I'm still willing to bet my hamstrings are worked nowhere
near as hard as when I train them separately.

Stance width is probably 1.5 times shoulder width, maybe slightly more
- am working on going wider to maybe 2x shoulder width.


Stu
 >> Stay informed about: Leg curling vs. squatting 

Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
> What do you do for hams?

Heavy leg curls, good mornings, sometimes standing 1-legged curls.

This week it was 2 super sets, each consisting of heavy curls, then
good mornings, then negatives on leg curls. After that I did a drop set
on 1-legged curls to finish off.

Stu
 >> Stay informed about: Leg curling vs. squatting 

"Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> schreef:

>> So the muscle contract at the same time at both joints?

> I meant, that if leg curl machines were constructed differently, they
> would work all right. To make them work fine one would need to be able
> to do curls in bent-over position and additionally make a levers of a
> machine work in such a way, that a load at the top of movement would be
> significantly lower than at the beginning.

> Wait, there exist such a machine! It's called Glute-Ham Raise!

I checked out the site and noticed a few things;

The joints are NOT worked at the same time. Its a hyperextension followed by
knee flexion where the upper legs, hips and torso are raised. The lower leg
remains in the same position. This means that the hip is pulled in the
direction of the feet.

In the leg curl, the feet is pulled in the direction of the hip.

And you know what? Thats exactly the same...

----
Pete
 >> Stay informed about: Leg curling vs. squatting 

In article <454a190a$0$77246$dbd4f001@news.wanadoo.nl>,
"Pete" <phoutstra RemoveThis @wanadoo.nl> wrote:

> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters RemoveThis @yahoo.com> schreef:
>
> >> So the muscle contract at the same time at both joints?
>
> > I meant, that if leg curl machines were constructed differently, they
> > would work all right. To make them work fine one would need to be able
> > to do curls in bent-over position and additionally make a levers of a
> > machine work in such a way, that a load at the top of movement would be
> > significantly lower than at the beginning.
>
> > Wait, there exist such a machine! It's called Glute-Ham Raise!
>
> I checked out the site and noticed a few things;
>
> The joints are NOT worked at the same time. Its a hyperextension followed by
> knee flexion where the upper legs, hips and torso are raised. The lower leg
> remains in the same position. This means that the hip is pulled in the
> direction of the feet.
>
> In the leg curl, the feet is pulled in the direction of the hip.
>
> And you know what? Thats exactly the same...

It was a poor example.

trust me - if you ever get a chance to try one, try it. Amazing machine.

--
Keith
 >> Stay informed about: Leg curling vs. squatting 

"Hobbes" <khobman800.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> schreef:

>> If you work the lower arms and biceps hard, you probably perform a bit
>> better when doing rows.
>> Heavy rows might help you using more in the dead.

>> Which can result in a better sqaut.

>> For me thats logic, anyway...

> Specificity roolz! Never forget it.

> Heavy rows would probably create a motor pattern where you pull with a
> flexed bicep - so you'd end up tearing off a bicep in the deadlift.

Perhaps that was a bad example because you guys use a lot more in the dead
as "we" do in rows.
Heaviest row i EVER did was 130 kilos in the cable and 70 kilo with DBs

> Been there - done that.

> For strength motor patterns are crucial. Strength is a skill as well as
> a function of muscle size. Isolation movements don't teach that skill
> and in fact may inhibit skill learning.

I agree with most of this, but if i had to put money on 2 different guys who
never squat a day in their live, i would put my money on the one who uses
twice as much wqeight as the other in leg extensions ;-O

----
Pete
 >> Stay informed about: Leg curling vs. squatting 

In article <454a1b24$0$20534$dbd4f001@news.wanadoo.nl>,
"Pete" <phoutstra.RemoveThis@wanadoo.nl> wrote:

> "Hobbes" <khobman800.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> schreef:
>
> >> If you work the lower arms and biceps hard, you probably perform a bit
> >> better when doing rows.
> >> Heavy rows might help you using more in the dead.
>
> >> Which can result in a better sqaut.
>
> >> For me thats logic, anyway...
>
> > Specificity roolz! Never forget it.
>
> > Heavy rows would probably create a motor pattern where you pull with a
> > flexed bicep - so you'd end up tearing off a bicep in the deadlift.
>
> Perhaps that was a bad example because you guys use a lot more in the dead
> as "we" do in rows.
> Heaviest row i EVER did was 130 kilos in the cable and 70 kilo with DBs
>
> > Been there - done that.
>
> > For strength motor patterns are crucial. Strength is a skill as well as
> > a function of muscle size. Isolation movements don't teach that skill
> > and in fact may inhibit skill learning.
>
> I agree with most of this, but if i had to put money on 2 different guys who
> never squat a day in their live, i would put my money on the one who uses
> twice as much wqeight as the other in leg extensions ;-O

Yup.

Deepsquatter had a plate loaded t-bar rowing machine in his gym. So he
was doing them at the end of a Westside workout when I went down to the
Bay area for a football game and took in a workout with him. He was some
pissed because I never did the exercise (didn't have access to it) and
could do 8 or 10 (can't remember what was the maximum amount they could
fit on it) 45 lb plates for 5 or 6 reps pretty easy.

Rowing and chins are two movements I've always been strong in. Which
might explain tearing the bicep tendon off while doing a deadlift from
just below the knee with 765 lbs.

--
Keith
 >> Stay informed about: Leg curling vs. squatting 

Hobbes <khobman800.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Pete" <phoutstra.DeleteThis@wanadoo.nl> wrote:
>>
>> I agree with most of this, but if i had to put money on 2 different guys who
>> never squat a day in their live, i would put my money on the one who uses
>> twice as much wqeight as the other in leg extensions ;-O
>
>Yup.
>
>Deepsquatter had a plate loaded t-bar rowing machine in his gym. So he
>was doing them at the end of a Westside workout when I went down to the
>Bay area for a football game and took in a workout with him. He was some
>pissed because I never did the exercise (didn't have access to it) and
>could do 8 or 10 (can't remember what was the maximum amount they could
>fit on it) 45 lb plates for 5 or 6 reps pretty easy.

Are you talking about a more classic T-bar rowing machine, like
Trygve's ...

http://www.trygve.com/tbar02.jpg

Or are you talking about one with cross-membered plate loading, such
as this one?

http://www.rochesterfitnessequipment.com/Freeweights/Powertec/Powertec...verage_
 >> Stay informed about: Leg curling vs. squatting 

This Trygve guy is a real bon vivant! Nice electronics behind the machine!
Also nice fitness/lifting dictionary/glossary, seems well-done.
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs
"JMW" <jmwilliams.RemoveThis@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote in message
news:d2fkk2hvljmc9j9jr5a4na9a8c9gqq5gp6@4ax.com...
> Hobbes <khobman800.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> "Pete" <phoutstra.RemoveThis@wanadoo.nl> wrote:
>>>
>>> I agree with most of this, but if i had to put money on 2 different guys
>>> who
>>> never squat a day in their live, i would put my money on the one who
>>> uses
>>> twice as much wqeight as the other in leg extensions ;-O
>>
>>Yup.
>>
>>Deepsquatter had a plate loaded t-bar rowing machine in his gym. So he
>>was doing them at the end of a Westside workout when I went down to the
>>Bay area for a football game and took in a workout with him. He was some
>>pissed because I never did the exercise (didn't have access to it) and
>>could do 8 or 10 (can't remember what was the maximum amount they could
>>fit on it) 45 lb plates for 5 or 6 reps pretty easy.
>
> Are you talking about a more classic T-bar rowing machine, like
> Trygve's ...
>
> http://www.trygve.com/tbar02.jpg
>
> Or are you talking about one with cross-membered plate loading, such
> as this one?
>
> http://www.rochesterfitnessequipment.com/Freeweights/Powertec/Powertec...verage_
 >> Stay informed about: Leg curling vs. squatting 

In article <d2fkk2hvljmc9j9jr5a4na9a8c9gqq5gp6 DeleteThis @4ax.com>,
JMW <jmwilliams DeleteThis @enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:

> http://www.trygve.com/tbar02.jpg

Looked more like that guy, as I recall.

Rows and chins have always been pretty easy for me. I've done true
single handed chins when I was a firefighter and much lighter. I wish
they had a chin-up competition!

So between the deadlifting and just having decent insertions for that
type of thing I do okay without doing them regulalry.

--
Keith
 >> Stay informed about: Leg curling vs. squatting