Need Help Tweaking My Fat Loss Program

Hans Huber wrote:

> I've recently begun training again after about a five year layoff, due
> to work, family, and other assorted bullshit excuses. Anyhow, I
> gained about 40lbs. while I was off and have focused my main goal as
> being to lose bodyfat while preserving the mediocre of lean mass I
> have left.

Congratulations on returning to the gym.

> I still have too much fat to lose, about another twenty pounds,
> before I can make any other fitness goal a priority. I really
> don't like how I look with the bodyfat on me at all. My routine is
> basic: two full body weight workouts a week (Squats, chins, benches,
> etc.), and four cardio sessions a week (thirty minutes of jogging or
> some shorter sessions of jogging mixed with sprinting). So far I've
> been burning fat fast and easily, about two pounds per week.

Cool.

> The problem I'm having now is that my cardio progression to burn more
> calories is starting to interfere with my full body weight workout.
> Basically, my legs are getting so much work from the jogging and
> running at this point, that squatting is just overkill and I'm too
> sore for it. Having been a former weight trainer, I feel very funny
> not squatting. I almost see no point in a weight routine without
> heavy core lifts like squats.

If you don't want to squat then don't squat. My focus is leg press
currently. But I'm hitting them three times per week.

Last workout was 6 wheels on leg press x 19 reps.
Bench was 125 x 9 reps.
DB pullover with 50 pounds for 11 reps.
Pulldowns with 120 pounds for 12 reps.
And 40 crunches.

> With this in mind, should I go easier on the cardio so I don't have
> the problems with squatting, or should I drop the squats temporarily
> until I lose the bulk of the bodyfat, and then return to a more
> traditional bodybuilding routine? In the past I've been fairly lean,
> so I've never had to do much but weight train, so this problem with
> the cardio is very new to me. Thank you for any suggestions.

You say your cardio is a concern? You wonder if you should "go easier
on the cardio," so your squatting is easier?

Hell, I'm doing very little cardio at all, but losing fat. Basically no
cardio, no squats, and I've lost an easy ten pounds.

I'm consuming 1500-cal per day diet currently of:

Breakfast - 1 bagel, 1 ounce light cream, 4 dried prunes, 1/2 cup o.j.
Lunch - Sandwich of bread, light mayo, sweet pickle relish, 4 ounces of
sliced turkey
Afternoon Snack - yogurt, a banana, OR a Nature Valley bar
Dinner - Healthy Choice blackened chicken OR Lean Cuisine glazed
chicken, bread, noncaloric beverage
Evening Snack - same as afternoon

And taking two Animal Cuts packs a day.

Totals 1500 calories or less

> Hans

Best of luck with your fitness program, Hans.

--
Curt
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 >> Stay informed about: Need Help Tweaking My Fat Loss Program 

Curt, you forgot to mention the Abs Diet.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"Curt" <curtjames RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1166677291.380292.21730@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Hans Huber wrote:
>
>> I've recently begun training again after about a five year layoff, due
>> to work, family, and other assorted bullshit excuses. Anyhow, I
>> gained about 40lbs. while I was off and have focused my main goal as
>> being to lose bodyfat while preserving the mediocre of lean mass I
>> have left.
>
> Congratulations on returning to the gym.
>
>> I still have too much fat to lose, about another twenty pounds,
>> before I can make any other fitness goal a priority. I really
>> don't like how I look with the bodyfat on me at all. My routine is
>> basic: two full body weight workouts a week (Squats, chins, benches,
>> etc.), and four cardio sessions a week (thirty minutes of jogging or
>> some shorter sessions of jogging mixed with sprinting). So far I've
>> been burning fat fast and easily, about two pounds per week.
>
> Cool.
>
>> The problem I'm having now is that my cardio progression to burn more
>> calories is starting to interfere with my full body weight workout.
>> Basically, my legs are getting so much work from the jogging and
>> running at this point, that squatting is just overkill and I'm too
>> sore for it. Having been a former weight trainer, I feel very funny
>> not squatting. I almost see no point in a weight routine without
>> heavy core lifts like squats.
>
> If you don't want to squat then don't squat. My focus is leg press
> currently. But I'm hitting them three times per week.
>
> Last workout was 6 wheels on leg press x 19 reps.
> Bench was 125 x 9 reps.
> DB pullover with 50 pounds for 11 reps.
> Pulldowns with 120 pounds for 12 reps.
> And 40 crunches.
>
>> With this in mind, should I go easier on the cardio so I don't have
>> the problems with squatting, or should I drop the squats temporarily
>> until I lose the bulk of the bodyfat, and then return to a more
>> traditional bodybuilding routine? In the past I've been fairly lean,
>> so I've never had to do much but weight train, so this problem with
>> the cardio is very new to me. Thank you for any suggestions.
>
> You say your cardio is a concern? You wonder if you should "go easier
> on the cardio," so your squatting is easier?
>
> Hell, I'm doing very little cardio at all, but losing fat. Basically no
> cardio, no squats, and I've lost an easy ten pounds.
>
> I'm consuming 1500-cal per day diet currently of:
>
> Breakfast - 1 bagel, 1 ounce light cream, 4 dried prunes, 1/2 cup o.j.
> Lunch - Sandwich of bread, light mayo, sweet pickle relish, 4 ounces of
> sliced turkey
> Afternoon Snack - yogurt, a banana, OR a Nature Valley bar
> Dinner - Healthy Choice blackened chicken OR Lean Cuisine glazed
> chicken, bread, noncaloric beverage
> Evening Snack - same as afternoon
>
> And taking two Animal Cuts packs a day.
>
> Totals 1500 calories or less
>
>> Hans
>
> Best of luck with your fitness program, Hans.
>
> --
> Curt
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Need Help Tweaking My Fat Loss Program 

I think the answer lies in the wisdom of jmw.
Now, I myself don't know the answer, but if I may, I'd like to speculate,
and if I'm correct, it's only because I've stood on the asses of giants,
like jmw.

I think the answer is timing.
Previously, the subject of timing of nutrients came up, in the building of
muscle tissue.
The ever-asstute and perspicassious jmw pointed out that if you eat before,
during, AND after a workout session, you will in fact gain more muscle than
if you eat, well, less often.
Who'da thunk?

So, based on His Asstuteness, ahm thinkin thusly:
CONVERSELY, to lose fat, it might be better to then *not* eat before, or
during, or after a workout session.
Wow.... the conceptual symmetry is just asstounding.

To sum up:
To build muscle: eat all the fukntime.
To lose fat: don't eat a fukn thing.

I think mfw needs a "JMW Award", for truly great and worthy concepts.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"Hans Huber" <nospam DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:q00jo2dvqj0hh7t4ghrej42eou73i11q9t@4ax.com...
> I've recently begun training again after about a five year layoff, due
> to work, family, and other assorted bullshit excuses. Anyhow, I
> gained about 40lbs. while I was off and have focused my main goal as
> being to lose bodyfat while preserving the mediocre of lean mass I
> have left. I still have too much fat to lose, about another twenty
> pounds, before I can make any other fitness goal a priority. I really
> don't like how I look with the bodyfat on me at all. My routine is
> basic: two full body weight workouts a week (Squats, chins, benches,
> etc.), and four cardio sessions a week (thirty minutes of jogging or
> some shorter sessions of jogging mixed with sprinting). So far I've
> been burning fat fast and easily, about two pounds per week.
>
> The problem I'm having now is that my cardio progression to burn more
> calories is starting to interfere with my full body weight workout.
> Basically, my legs are getting so much work from the jogging and
> running at this point, that squatting is just overkill and I'm too
> sore for it. Having been a former weight trainer, I feel very funny
> not squatting. I almost see no point in a weight routine without
> heavy core lifts like squats.
>
> With this in mind, should I go easier on the cardio so I don't have
> the problems with squatting, or should I drop the squats temporarily
> until I lose the bulk of the bodyfat, and then return to a more
> traditional bodybuilding routine? In the past I've been fairly lean,
> so I've never had to do much but weight train, so this problem with
> the cardio is very new to me. Thank you for any suggestions.
>
> Hans
>
 >> Stay informed about: Need Help Tweaking My Fat Loss Program 

Proctologically Violated©® wrote:

> Curt, you forgot to mention the Abs Diet.

(slaps forehead)

D'OH! So glad you mentioned that obvious oversight on my part, PV.
Gracias. I'll correct that now. To wit:

I'm sure some might say The Abs Diet smacks of hucksterism, but I see
it as an
entertaining style of writing. References to pop culture in Archie
Bunker, enthusiasm-building visual imagery in "fat furnaces" and, yes,
a BUY NOW! TODAY! directive in "you'll lose up to 12 pounds of
fat--from your belly first!" But the information is rock solid.

And I know I'm a cheerleader for this book and, yes, therefore biased,
so check out
what Publishers Weekly has to say:

Eat everything. Concentrate on whole grains. Drink milk. Balance
protein with carbohydrates. Avoid processed sugars. Do some exercise.
The idea that a diet book making such proposals comes as a pleasant
surprise shows just how far afield we've gone in the search for new
ways to be fit. The only thing new about this diet by the
editor-in-chief of Men's Health is its name, and this, one can presume,
is because nowadays, a book simply called "Sensible Eating" wouldn't
sell. The book's title is indeed misleading; only the final chapter
deals solely with abs. The rest is full of rational recommendations for
a realistic diet plan: eat more and smaller meals; have oatmeal in the
morning for a nourishing breakfast; don't starve yourself; drink plenty
of water; and stay away from sodas and foods that contain high-fructose
corn syrup. Whether readers will, in the end, walk away with abs of
steel is not really the point. They'll control their weight in a
healthy way, without counting calories, cutting out whole food groups
or supporting the beef futures market. Best of all, this book tells
readers why it works: increase your body's metabolism, gain some muscle
and fat burns away. The authors make this seem like a fresh and very
attainable ideal.
/quote from
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1579549985/104-4021844-4537547?v=glan...n=28315
aka http://tinyurl.com/pmykv

The Amazon link or TinyURL link will take you to Amazon's Abs Diet page
which, along with book specifics, offers 146 customer reviews not all
of which are especially glowing, which possibly serves to offset my
bias in favor of the book.

I was first introduced to the book courtesy of Amazing Abs,
a just-less-than-magazine-size book from Men's Health and the good
people at Rodale Inc.

Amazing Abs has much the same info as The Abs Diet but with a lot more
pictures. The cover screams "LOSE YOUR GUT! Exclusive! Abs Diet
Excerpt" and has a pic of a guy displaying a cover model six-pack.

I liked the humor and no-nonsense approach used in that book. Diet and
exercise plans, visually appealing with tons of pics of male and female
models demonstrating correct exercise performance. Amazing Abs is a
collection of bits and pieces of other Rodale books edited together in
a truly artful way, imo. Informative, attractive, accessible.

Enjoying that book piqued my interest in The Abs Diet. Fwiw, it's a New
York Times bestseller. It's written in an engaging manner,
straightforward, intelligent, and, yes, again, with humor. Early in the
book, the message "Changing the Way You Think About the Word Diet" is
offered as a headline. The book does just that. The writers say it
better than I ever could:

"For years - or maybe for all your life - you've probably had one
notion about what dieting needs to be. Restrict your foods, eat like a
supermodel, sweat on the treadmill, and you'll lose fat. In reality,
those could be the very reasons why you couldn't lose weight. It's why
you gained back what you lost. It's the reason why your steamboat
metabolism may have geared down to that of an anchored barge. It's why
you don't see much progress when you try new weight-loss programs. And
it's why the only real recipe many diet plans offer is a recipe for
pecan-encrusted failure."

That's some visual imagery. I like it. A lot. Yeah, it could probably
be boiled down to five or ten pages of text, but for ten bucks, this
book and its philosophy, imo, can't be beat.

And, yes, David Zinczenko (with Ted Spiker) has a good bit of P.T.
Barnum or carnival barker in him, but, imo, this book is not for
suckers*. Zinczenko's enthusiasm leaps from the page. Good information,
visually appealing, right price, and a motivational writing style all
equal a book I'm glad I purchased. Ymmv. ;o)

I also picked up The Abs Diet Eat Right Every Time Guide which includes
789 of what the authors call the best on-the-go food choices. It's
offered as a complete supermarket survival guide and contains 60
six-minute meals for a six-pack.

> Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Ahhh, much better. And did I mention the cover!? INTERNATIONAL ORANGE!
~*BAM*~!!! -=BIFF!!!=- *%POW!!!%*

--
Curt
 >> Stay informed about: Need Help Tweaking My Fat Loss Program 

"Curt" <curtjames DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1166700661.524424.312770@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
>Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
>> Curt, you forgot to mention the Abs Diet.
>(slaps forehead)
>D'OH! So glad you mentioned that obvious oversight on my part, PV.

I actually ordered the book on theory that it was probably the latest
compilation of general information about good nutritition, and on the
assumption that I would be spared the usual diet-writing advice to the
effect that I should put more vigor into my housecleaning and play with my
children more! (I don't have children. Maybe I'm supposed to rent them so
I can play with them.)

The book just arrived this morning. I look forward to reading it. I find
reading stuff about health and fitness motivating. That's why I hang out in
this god-forsaken hellhole excuse for a newsgroup. That, and the laughs.

ep
 >> Stay informed about: Need Help Tweaking My Fat Loss Program 

Edna Pearl wrote:
[...]

re The Abs Diet

> I actually ordered the book on theory that it was probably the latest
> compilation of general information about good nutritition, and on the
> assumption that I would be spared the usual diet-writing advice to the
> effect that I should put more vigor into my housecleaning and play with my
> children more!

I'd be interested in reading what you think about it, of course. As
much as I've acted as a cheerleader, it'd be nice to get an unbiased
opinion.

> (I don't have children. Maybe I'm supposed to rent them so
> I can play with them.)

No kids, but five nephews and a niece provide ample "play with my
children more!" opportunities.

> The book just arrived this morning. I look forward to reading it. I find
> reading stuff about health and fitness motivating.

Ditto.

> That's why I hang out in this god-forsaken hellhole excuse for a newsgroup.

Me, I'm here for the warm camaraderie and mutual respect.

> That, and the laughs.

Laughs? I hadn't noticed.

> ep

--
Curt
 >> Stay informed about: Need Help Tweaking My Fat Loss Program 

Edna Pearl wrote:
> "Hans Huber" <nospam.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>If your goal is *still* to preserve (and build?)
> >
> > Definitely not build. I know my calorie expenditure is too high for
> > that,
>
> Maybe. Not necessarily. It depends Don't buy the myth that you need
> a calorie surplus to build muscle. Sure, if you are really burning into the
> cardio while depriving yourself of calories in your diet, you can't build,
> and that's probably where you are, but I do want to mention that lifting can
> build muscle on a mild calorie deficit, especially if you've got some fat.

You will build very little, if any, muscle on a hypocaloric diet. You
may get stronger, but that is largely a function of neuromuscular
patterning, not muscular hypertrophy. You may also have more visible
muscle as a result of fat loss. However, the actual increase in
muscular cross-sectional area will be negligible.

That said, most folks who are "kinda fat" will do a lot more for their
physical appearance by trying to lose fat from around existing muscle
than they will trying to build muscle under a blanket of fat that
remains the same. Unless, of course, you're shooting for the "Big
Bubba" look.
 >> Stay informed about: Need Help Tweaking My Fat Loss Program 

"Hans Huber" <nospam RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:lgvlo25qjd5m2cm7h0cqnb3p07lt791hgt@4ax.com...
>>If your goal is *still* to preserve (and build?)
>
> Definitely not build. I know my calorie expenditure is too high for
> that,

Maybe. Not necessarily. It depends Don't buy the myth that you need
a calorie surplus to build muscle. Sure, if you are really burning into the
cardio while depriving yourself of calories in your diet, you can't build,
and that's probably where you are, but I do want to mention that lifting can
build muscle on a mild calorie deficit, especially if you've got some fat.

> but I do want to prevent as much muscle _loss_ as possible. I
> understand that some is inevitable, and I'll probably gain it back
> quickly once I'm done with the fat loss phase.

Yup. You've got a plan, below, and that plan will rebuild muscle.

> The problem is that I can't stand the jelly roll around my stomach or
> how puffy my face has gotten. It just disgusts me.

I can relate! Remember that muscle itself burns calories, though, even when
you're just sitting around on your butt.

> Yeah, I know what you mean. I think I might do both: stick with my
> current method for another month, go to a more traditional
> bodybuilding routine for about 2 months, then go and do a final fat
> loss phase.

I think that sounds grand.

> Perhaps this is more ideal than trying to accomplish two
> goals at once.

As somebody else has pointed out in this thread, it *is* possible to
accomplish both goals at the same time, especially for a beginner, and
especially for a beginner with some fat. But you seem to have clarified
your goals to your own satisfaction, so go for it.

>>I have a new motto: "Just act like a jock, and the rest will follow."
>>FWIW.
>
> This actually is a very good point. I think a lot of people overlook
> this. I think people sometimes get too overinvovled in the specifics
> of a routine or program, and forget the main point: stay active and
> workout hard.

But learning and playing with ideas about the specifics can be kinda fun and
motivating, especially when the month-after-month grind of trying to be a
jock gets boring.

>Thanks for the input;

My pleasure.

> you've got my head pointed in the
> right direction.

Hey, don't blame me! You pointed yourself, as far as I can see (and that's
as it should be).

> The idea of changing gears instead of trying to get
> a progam to suit two objectives is much more rational.

Rational, schmational. Enjoy.

ep
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 >> Stay informed about: Need Help Tweaking My Fat Loss Program 

Edna Pearl wrote:
> "Hans Huber" <nospam RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:lgvlo25qjd5m2cm7h0cqnb3p07lt791hgt@4ax.com...
>>> If your goal is *still* to preserve (and build?)
>>
>> Definitely not build. I know my calorie expenditure is too high for
>> that,
>
> Maybe. Not necessarily. It depends Don't buy the myth that
> you need a calorie surplus to build muscle. Sure, if you are really
> burning into the cardio while depriving yourself of calories in your
> diet, you can't build, and that's probably where you are, but I do
> want to mention that lifting can build muscle on a mild calorie
> deficit, especially if you've got some fat.

Do you have any hard evidence to support this? I've gained strength in the
past when dieting but that shouldn't be confused with building muscle.

>
>> but I do want to prevent as much muscle _loss_ as possible. I
>> understand that some is inevitable, and I'll probably gain it back
>> quickly once I'm done with the fat loss phase.
>
> Yup. You've got a plan, below, and that plan will rebuild muscle.
>
>> The problem is that I can't stand the jelly roll around my stomach or
>> how puffy my face has gotten. It just disgusts me.
>
> I can relate! Remember that muscle itself burns calories, though,
> even when you're just sitting around on your butt.

Yeah, but don't rely on it to do ALL the hard work or you will just remain a
lard arse.

[...]


--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
 >> Stay informed about: Need Help Tweaking My Fat Loss Program 

Dnia 2006-12-22 Bully napisa³(a):
> Edna Pearl wrote:
>> "Hans Huber" <nospam DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:lgvlo25qjd5m2cm7h0cqnb3p07lt791hgt@4ax.com...
>>>> If your goal is *still* to preserve (and build?)
>>>
>>> Definitely not build. I know my calorie expenditure is too high for
>>> that,
>>
>> Maybe. Not necessarily. It depends Don't buy the myth that
>> you need a calorie surplus to build muscle. Sure, if you are really
>> burning into the cardio while depriving yourself of calories in your
>> diet, you can't build, and that's probably where you are, but I do
>> want to mention that lifting can build muscle on a mild calorie
>> deficit, especially if you've got some fat.
>
> Do you have any hard evidence to support this? I've gained strength in the
> past when dieting but that shouldn't be confused with building muscle.

OK. Break a leg, get fat due to lack of exercise, take the plaster off
and see what a shade of your former leg you have, start walking and
lose fat and rebuild your leg at the same time.

I tried to make it into a science, but somehow nobody wanted to get their
legs broken just to prove a point.

>> I can relate! Remember that muscle itself burns calories, though,
>> even when you're just sitting around on your butt.
>
> Yeah, but don't rely on it to do ALL the hard work or you will just remain a
> lard arse.

Well, actually I seem to remember that inactive muscle burns more or
less the same amount of calories as fat. Maintaining muscles burns
calories, carrying them around does the same. Treated this way, they
are sort of a good looking weight vest, which obviously helps in staying
slim, but only when you move around in it. Weight vests do not help
much while lying on one's back.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: Need Help Tweaking My Fat Loss Program 

Dnia 2006-12-21 JMW napisa³(a):
> Edna Pearl wrote:
>> "Hans Huber" <nospam.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >>If your goal is *still* to preserve (and build?)
>> >
>> > Definitely not build. I know my calorie expenditure is too high for
>> > that,
>>
>> Maybe. Not necessarily. It depends Don't buy the myth that you need
>> a calorie surplus to build muscle. Sure, if you are really burning into the
>> cardio while depriving yourself of calories in your diet, you can't build,
>> and that's probably where you are, but I do want to mention that lifting can
>> build muscle on a mild calorie deficit, especially if you've got some fat.
>
> You will build very little, if any, muscle on a hypocaloric diet. You
> may get stronger, but that is largely a function of neuromuscular
> patterning, not muscular hypertrophy. You may also have more visible
> muscle as a result of fat loss. However, the actual increase in
> muscular cross-sectional area will be negligible.

All of that is based on silent assumption that one is already a
"trained subject" who does stimulate muscle hypertrophy to a reasonable
extent. In such a situation, what you described makes sense. For an
untrained or detrained people, it doesn't apply.

> That said, most folks who are "kinda fat" will do a lot more for their
> physical appearance by trying to lose fat from around existing muscle
> than they will trying to build muscle under a blanket of fat that
> remains the same. Unless, of course, you're shooting for the "Big
> Bubba" look.

Well, why not eat at maintenance? Your body weight will stay the same,
but your muscles will grow under diminishing blanket of fat. I did
just that, and it definitely worked (as it should for a "kinda fat"
untrained subject).

Let's remember several facts. One will build muscles while on
hypercaloric diet even without weight training. One is able to lose
fat on hypercaloric diet under special conditions (mainly
supercompensation). One is able to get fat on hypocaloric diet under
special conditions (chronic overtraining).

Oh, something I happen to believe but can't prove: One will build
muscles faster while staying fat as opposed to staying cut or ripped.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
 >> Stay informed about: Need Help Tweaking My Fat Loss Program