Great Machines (Namely, Lats!)

"Prisoner at War" <prisoner_at_war RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1184168291.323277.303490@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 11, 11:17 am, "Steve Freides" <s... RemoveThis @fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> FWIW, I do range of motion, joint health type neck exercises,
>> typically
>> 50+ reps each morning, moving my neck/head in some of the various
>> directions it can move, and that's 50+ reps for each move and I'm
>> usually doing 3 or 4 of them, so I'm spending a solid few minutes
>> exercising my neck.
>
> What, exactly, do you do? Are these some kind of physical therapy-
> type of exercises?

Keith Hobman has pointed out Internet sources for joint health exercises
before - I don't have the links handy, I'm afraid.

The basic principle is simple enough - move it or lose it. You
therefore try to put your joints through a full range of motion for high
repetitions, on the theory that this is what's best for them. Not only
does such practice teach your body that these ranges of motion are OK,
but many joints self-lubricate very nicely when subjected to high
repetitions, and there is at least some evidence that joint surface may
actually self-polish as a result of such practice. It certainly seems
to break down some of the small deposits that can form in your joints.

I base my exercises on Pavel's book, "Super Joints," see
http://www.kbnj.com/sj.htm

The book includes descriptions of several Russian joint health programs,
and then proposes a set of 17 (I think, or a thereabouts) movements to
be performed each morning, hitting all the major joints in the body. I
do about 10 of them. The first is "3 plane neck" and it's turning the
head side to side, looking straight up and straight down, and leaning
the head side to side (bring the ear towards the shoulder). I also for
a fourth movement, a "chicken neck" kind of movement where you move the
head straight forward and backwards.

The devil is in the details for this stuff, IMHO - do it the wrong way
and you can make things no better or even worse. There are basic
concepts which the book explains, about trying to elongate your neck
rather than just jam it into odd positions, for example.

One formula that's given is that you should perform each movement for as
many reps as you are years old, with the exception of problem joints, in
which case you should perform more, into the hundreds of repetitions.
Since I'm 52, that's my guideline, 52 reps or more of everything. There
are one or two for which I've found more isn't better for me so I do
less, and there are some for which I do a lot more. I also vary the
volume depending on my time and schedule as well as need, e.g., if I
only have a few minutes, I'll do less, or if I have a high-rep workout
coming up involving the shoulders and hips, I won't do tons of those
that day.

One very nice aspect of all this stuff is that it makes the perfect
warmup - the muscles get nicely used without lifting heavy weights, and
when you're done you're ready either for your workout or just to do
whatever else you have scheduled but without feeling stiff and sore.

>> It's pretty wonderful stuff, helps loosen you up
>> for the day. I have to do these sorts of exercises for my hips and
>> lower back, but the neck ones are what actually feel like I get the
>> most
>> bang for the time spent in terms of actually feeling better.
>
> I can imagine! I really need a chiropractor or somebody knowledgeable
> to massage my neck and shoulders. I want to get into this neck stuff.

You can learn to do a lot of this on your own. Consider, among other
reading, getting the Trigger Point Workbook - I got mine on amazon. com.
A bit technical but an excellent guide to finding things that need to be
massaged by showing trigger points, a list of spots you can try to see
if they reduce symptoms of tightness and pain. The interesting thing
about Trigger Point is that the symptoms often aren't felt at the
trigger point, e.g., tighteness in the shoulders or neck can result in
carpal tunnel like symptoms.

>> No weighted neck work though, except if you count deadlifting. And I
>> think a neck _machine_ is about the last thing I'd want to be using,
>> but
>> then again, I'd say that for most machines so I guess I'm prejudiced.
>>
>
> Machines are fun. Smooth fixed motion...it's a different experience.
> Inferior in some respects, but I like machine exercises for the unique
> experience.

Best of luck with the machines. I began my strength training by working
out at a gym that had a full Cybex circuit, and after 2-3 years of that,
I added deadlifts and gradually worked out of doing machines and into
free weights or bodyweight for everything, and I've never felt the need
to go back to machines.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

>> -S-http://www.kbnj.com
>>
>> > tom
>>
>> > --
>> > Please! Undo clips before opening handle.
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Great Machines (Namely, Lats!) 

On Jul 11, 12:38 pm, "Steve Freides" <s... DeleteThis @fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Keith Hobman has pointed out Internet sources for joint health exercises
> before - I don't have the links handy, I'm afraid.

Hmm, I'll google around, then.

> The basic principle is simple enough - move it or lose it. You
> therefore try to put your joints through a full range of motion for high
> repetitions, on the theory that this is what's best for them.

Huh? I move my neck around many times a day already...??

Besides -- what about repetitive injury stuff like Carpal Tunnel
Syndrome, only WRT the neck??

> Not only
> does such practice teach your body that these ranges of motion are OK,
> but many joints self-lubricate very nicely when subjected to high
> repetitions, and there is at least some evidence that joint surface may
> actually self-polish as a result of such practice. It certainly seems
> to break down some of the small deposits that can form in your joints.

How interesting...self-lubricate??

Are vetebrae joints?? 'Cause I have a hernia at L-7 or something,
which means that the jelly is gone, there's no lubrication or
cushioning, and somehow that's affected my nerve signals such that my
legs (really, my ass) got no power and I can't run as fast as I used
to....

> I base my exercises on Pavel's book, "Super Joints," seehttp://www.kbnj.com/sj.htm
>
> The book includes descriptions of several Russian joint health programs,
> and then proposes a set of 17 (I think, or a thereabouts) movements to
> be performed each morning, hitting all the major joints in the body. I
> do about 10 of them. The first is "3 plane neck" and it's turning the
> head side to side, looking straight up and straight down, and leaning
> the head side to side (bring the ear towards the shoulder). I also for
> a fourth movement, a "chicken neck" kind of movement where you move the
> head straight forward and backwards.
>
> The devil is in the details for this stuff, IMHO - do it the wrong way
> and you can make things no better or even worse. There are basic
> concepts which the book explains, about trying to elongate your neck
> rather than just jam it into odd positions, for example.
>
> One formula that's given is that you should perform each movement for as
> many reps as you are years old, with the exception of problem joints, in
> which case you should perform more, into the hundreds of repetitions.
> Since I'm 52, that's my guideline, 52 reps or more of everything. There
> are one or two for which I've found more isn't better for me so I do
> less, and there are some for which I do a lot more. I also vary the
> volume depending on my time and schedule as well as need, e.g., if I
> only have a few minutes, I'll do less, or if I have a high-rep workout
> coming up involving the shoulders and hips, I won't do tons of those
> that day.

Sounds a bit like morning tai-chi! Hmmm....

> One very nice aspect of all this stuff is that it makes the perfect
> warmup - the muscles get nicely used without lifting heavy weights, and
> when you're done you're ready either for your workout or just to do
> whatever else you have scheduled but without feeling stiff and sore.

Yup -- I should think so; I've noticed just that from stretching
out...I actually sweat when doing stretches! Thanks again for the
refs; I love homework!

> You can learn to do a lot of this on your own. Consider, among other
> reading, getting the Trigger Point Workbook - I got mine on amazon. com.
> A bit technical but an excellent guide to finding things that need to be
> massaged by showing trigger points, a list of spots you can try to see
> if they reduce symptoms of tightness and pain. The interesting thing
> about Trigger Point is that the symptoms often aren't felt at the
> trigger point, e.g., tighteness in the shoulders or neck can result in
> carpal tunnel like symptoms.

Wow, thanks for the references. So interesting...just the other day I
was scratching the sole of my right foot with my left hand and somehow
I did it in such a way that my right hand got to tingling, between the
thumb and index finger! And I was just wonder, right then and there,
hmm, I wonder what other weird connections there are in the body....

> Best of luck with the machines. I began my strength training by working
> out at a gym that had a full Cybex circuit, and after 2-3 years of that,
> I added deadlifts and gradually worked out of doing machines and into
> free weights or bodyweight for everything, and I've never felt the need
> to go back to machines.

Hmm, interesting. I went from calisthenics to freeweights to
machines. I still love 'em all, though of course freeweights are my
favorite.

Thanks again for all your advice, Steve.
 >> Stay informed about: Great Machines (Namely, Lats!) 

On Jul 11, 5:00 pm, "Spammers_Should_Be_Shot" <NoS... RemoveThis @MyEmail.com>
wrote:
>
>
> What ever happened to good old neck bridges? Though this guy
> (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/sonnon10.htm) says there's a better
> alternative. What do wrestlers and football players do (most tend to have
> rather large necks)? Back in my school days we did neck bridges (weighted
> if you really want a workout!), since then I haven't done any neck exercises
> nor do I feel the need to do them.


Hey, that's interesting!

I'd never even heard of them...neck bridges?? Funny name...I wonder
if these will work....
 >> Stay informed about: Great Machines (Namely, Lats!) 

"Prisoner at War" <prisoner_at_war.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1184186271.128502.144950@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 11, 5:00 pm, "Spammers_Should_Be_Shot" <NoS....RemoveThis@MyEmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > What ever happened to good old neck bridges? Though this guy
> > (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/sonnon10.htm) says there's a better
> > alternative. What do wrestlers and football players do (most tend to
have
> > rather large necks)? Back in my school days we did neck bridges
(weighted
> > if you really want a workout!), since then I haven't done any neck
exercises
> > nor do I feel the need to do them.
>
>
> Hey, that's interesting!
>
> I'd never even heard of them...neck bridges?? Funny name...I wonder
> if these will work....
>

If you do them just be REAL careful not to over do it (especially when
starting out). IMO it's very easy to pull a muscle/pinch a nerve in your
neck if you go "too heavy" too quick. Start slow and use your arms to make
sure the amount of weight your neck is supporting is easily manageable.
After a couple weeks (maybe more if your neck is real weak) you should be
able to do them without your arms and then months down the road do them
weighted. I know back in high school we had to do them for 2-3 minutes
(face down, roll "up" chin-to-chest, roll down to touch nose to ground,
touch left ear, touch right ear, then "roll over" so our back was to the
ground and we were facing the ceiling and repeat the up/down/left/right.
All this was done with only touching the ground with your head and feet, no
hands/arms/knees/etc.) and usually the whole procedure was repeated 2-3
times. If the coach was in an especially pissy mood we'd have to do then
with someone sitting on us!
 >> Stay informed about: Great Machines (Namely, Lats!) 

On Jul 11, 6:49 pm, "Spammers_Should_Be_Shot" <NoS....RemoveThis@MyEmail.com>
wrote:
> "Prisoner at War" <prisoner_at_....RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:1184186271.128502.144950@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Jul 11, 5:00 pm, "Spammers_Should_Be_Shot" <NoS....RemoveThis@MyEmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > What ever happened to good old neck bridges? Though this guy
> > > (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/sonnon10.htm) says there's a better
> > > alternative. What do wrestlers and football players do (most tend to
> have
> > > rather large necks)? Back in my school days we did neck bridges
> (weighted
> > > if you really want a workout!), since then I haven't done any neck
> exercises
> > > nor do I feel the need to do them.
>
> > Hey, that's interesting!
>
> > I'd never even heard of them...neck bridges?? Funny name...I wonder
> > if these will work....
>
> If you do them just be REAL careful not to over do it (especially when
> starting out). IMO it's very easy to pull a muscle/pinch a nerve in your
> neck if you go "too heavy" too quick. Start slow and use your arms to make
> sure the amount of weight your neck is supporting is easily manageable.
> After a couple weeks (maybe more if your neck is real weak) you should be
> able to do them without your arms and then months down the road do them
> weighted. I know back in high school we had to do them for 2-3 minutes
> (face down, roll "up" chin-to-chest, roll down to touch nose to ground,
> touch left ear, touch right ear, then "roll over" so our back was to the
> ground and we were facing the ceiling and repeat the up/down/left/right.
> All this was done with only touching the ground with your head and feet, no
> hands/arms/knees/etc.) and usually the whole procedure was repeated 2-3
> times. If the coach was in an especially pissy mood we'd have to do then
> with someone sitting on us!



Whoa -- thanks for the warning! I have neck and shoulder issues (last
strained something doing lateral raises, can you believe that --
lasted three days total), so that's part of the reason why I'm very
interested in neck strengthening. My posture's normally good, but
when at the keyboard I tend to hunch over and that affects things...I
hate office jobs....
 >> Stay informed about: Great Machines (Namely, Lats!) 

"Prisoner at War" <prisoner_at_war.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1184185743.525594.9240@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 11, 12:38 pm, "Steve Freides" <s....DeleteThis@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Keith Hobman has pointed out Internet sources for joint health
>> exercises
>> before - I don't have the links handy, I'm afraid.
>
> Hmm, I'll google around, then.
>
>> The basic principle is simple enough - move it or lose it. You
>> therefore try to put your joints through a full range of motion for
>> high
>> repetitions, on the theory that this is what's best for them.
>
> Huh? I move my neck around many times a day already...??

You don't move your neck through a full range of motion, though, which
is why it probably is some kind of "uncomfortable" (substitute another
word if you like) when you do things like turn all the way to one side
or the other. The idea of these exercises is that you attempt to use
the full range of motion in each plane, which is a much larger range of
motion than what you get sitting at your desk. Full range of motion is
the key here.

> Besides -- what about repetitive injury stuff like Carpal Tunnel
> Syndrome, only WRT the neck??

That's why the devil is in the details. It's possible to do these
things the wrong way and get yourself a nice overuse injury, I agree.
The concepts of lengthening your spine, opening joints, moving with
minimal muscle tension, etc. - these are what's important, and obviously
the book does a whole lot better job of explaining them than I do here.

>> Not only
>> does such practice teach your body that these ranges of motion are
>> OK,
>> but many joints self-lubricate very nicely when subjected to high
>> repetitions, and there is at least some evidence that joint surface
>> may
>> actually self-polish as a result of such practice. It certainly
>> seems
>> to break down some of the small deposits that can form in your
>> joints.
>
> How interesting...self-lubricate??

Yes. Google synovial fluid for a bit of reading on the subject, but the
idea is that these movements can help joints retain their current level
of health or even improve it. The basic program claims, as I understand
it, to retard the aging process of joints more than it claims to fix
anything, but I think, at least for someone like me, my joints, while
they may _feel_ old at times, really aren't in terrible condition, so
I'm doing what I can to stay healthy as long as possible in this regard.

> Are vetebrae joints?? 'Cause I have a hernia at L-7 or something,
> which means that the jelly is gone, there's no lubrication or
> cushioning, and somehow that's affected my nerve signals such that my
> legs (really, my ass) got no power and I can't run as fast as I used
> to....

The approach doesn't work everywhere on the body and it doesn't work for
everyone, and certainly is a joint is damaged past a certain point, then
you need to try not to use it rather than rehabilitate it. But the
lumbar spine is a whole other issue - most people advocate _not_ having
a very mobile lumbar spine, instead focusing on mobility in the hips,
shoulders, and elsewhere. BTW, I don't think there is an L-7, is there?
I thought they went up to 5 and then you're into the sacrum.

>> I base my exercises on Pavel's book, "Super Joints,"
>> seehttp://www.kbnj.com/sj.htm
>>
>> The book includes descriptions of several Russian joint health
>> programs,
>> and then proposes a set of 17 (I think, or a thereabouts) movements
>> to
>> be performed each morning, hitting all the major joints in the body.
>> I
>> do about 10 of them. The first is "3 plane neck" and it's turning
>> the
>> head side to side, looking straight up and straight down, and leaning
>> the head side to side (bring the ear towards the shoulder). I also
>> for
>> a fourth movement, a "chicken neck" kind of movement where you move
>> the
>> head straight forward and backwards.
>>
>> The devil is in the details for this stuff, IMHO - do it the wrong
>> way
>> and you can make things no better or even worse. There are basic
>> concepts which the book explains, about trying to elongate your neck
>> rather than just jam it into odd positions, for example.
>>
>> One formula that's given is that you should perform each movement for
>> as
>> many reps as you are years old, with the exception of problem joints,
>> in
>> which case you should perform more, into the hundreds of repetitions.
>> Since I'm 52, that's my guideline, 52 reps or more of everything.
>> There
>> are one or two for which I've found more isn't better for me so I do
>> less, and there are some for which I do a lot more. I also vary the
>> volume depending on my time and schedule as well as need, e.g., if I
>> only have a few minutes, I'll do less, or if I have a high-rep
>> workout
>> coming up involving the shoulders and hips, I won't do tons of those
>> that day.
>
> Sounds a bit like morning tai-chi! Hmmm....

What I do every morning, while it's mostly from things I learned from
reading "Super Joints", also includes some qigong (like tai chi), some
yoga, and even some things I learned in Tae Kwon Do (karate). It's all
good, the point is to know why you're doing each movement and perform it
paying attention to the right things. Just because there's no weight in
your hand doesn't mean moving your body requires any less attention to
form.

>> One very nice aspect of all this stuff is that it makes the perfect
>> warmup - the muscles get nicely used without lifting heavy weights,
>> and
>> when you're done you're ready either for your workout or just to do
>> whatever else you have scheduled but without feeling stiff and sore.
>
> Yup -- I should think so; I've noticed just that from stretching
> out...I actually sweat when doing stretches! Thanks again for the
> refs; I love homework!
>
>> You can learn to do a lot of this on your own. Consider, among other
>> reading, getting the Trigger Point Workbook - I got mine on amazon.
>> com.
>> A bit technical but an excellent guide to finding things that need to
>> be
>> massaged by showing trigger points, a list of spots you can try to
>> see
>> if they reduce symptoms of tightness and pain. The interesting thing
>> about Trigger Point is that the symptoms often aren't felt at the
>> trigger point, e.g., tighteness in the shoulders or neck can result
>> in
>> carpal tunnel like symptoms.
>
> Wow, thanks for the references. So interesting...just the other day I
> was scratching the sole of my right foot with my left hand and somehow
> I did it in such a way that my right hand got to tingling, between the
> thumb and index finger! And I was just wonder, right then and there,
> hmm, I wonder what other weird connections there are in the body....

Google Functional Movement Screening and you will find yet more good
things to investigate. This is my latest area of endeavor, basically
relearning/unlearning basic movement patterns to try and get rid of
compensations for weaknesses and old injuries - fascinating stuff.

>> Best of luck with the machines. I began my strength training by
>> working
>> out at a gym that had a full Cybex circuit, and after 2-3 years of
>> that,
>> I added deadlifts and gradually worked out of doing machines and into
>> free weights or bodyweight for everything, and I've never felt the
>> need
>> to go back to machines.
>
> Hmm, interesting. I went from calisthenics to freeweights to
> machines. I still love 'em all, though of course freeweights are my
> favorite.
>
> Thanks again for all your advice, Steve.

Hey, happy to be of some help.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com
 >> Stay informed about: Great Machines (Namely, Lats!)