Deadlifts and spinal load

In article ,
Bob Volkmer wrote:

> > So, I like deads because they work a significant number of muscle groups
> > in a single move.
> >
> > What moves could I substitute without putting additional weight on the
> > vertical spine?
> >
> > For substituting for squats, I'll just continue with the leg press since
> > it's no longer causing me any problems to use it. Granted, it's not
> > quite the same, but it's better than nothing. I'm going to be taking a
> > long look at cable moves since SMAC (the local hard core gym) has a
> > really complex cable rack that is good for many things.
> >
> > Their annual membership is more expensive than the city center, but
> > still affordable.
>
> From my ignorant knowledge, sumo stance deadlift? I do them after
> normal deadlifts, lower weight but they don't put the same stress on
> the lower back imo,
>
> Bob

Ok, I googled that and the stance is indeed totally different. Looks
like it works hips and upper back while mostly avoiding spine load.

He did say that deads would be ok if I kept the weight down and did not
try for heavy lifts. But he'd prefer it if I avoided them totally.

I like to lift heavy; I'm going to have to get over that...
--
Peace! Om

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive." -- Dalai Lama
 >> Stay informed about: Deadlifts and spinal load 

In article ,
Omelet wrote:

> I discussed going back to free weights with my Chiro' yesterday morning
> and getting away from the machines.
>
> He said he felt my spine was finally stable enough to do so as long as I
> was careful.
>
> I then asked about deadlifts.
>
> He feels they'd be a bad idea for me as I already have a significant
> amount of spinal compression in the lower part of my spine. The added
> weight load might make things worse.
>
> Same goes for squats.
>
> <sigh>
>
> So, I like deads because they work a significant number of muscle groups
> in a single move.
>
> What moves could I substitute without putting additional weight on the
> vertical spine?
>
> For substituting for squats, I'll just continue with the leg press since
> it's no longer causing me any problems to use it. Granted, it's not
> quite the same, but it's better than nothing. I'm going to be taking a
> long look at cable moves since SMAC (the local hard core gym) has a
> really complex cable rack that is good for many things.
>
> Their annual membership is more expensive than the city center, but
> still affordable.

Don't go too low or heavy on the leg press. The caveat would be to
ensure your pelvis doesn't 'tilt' at the bottom of the movement. This
puts sheer loads on the lumbar spine.

Another option - IMO a better one - is a hip-belt squat.

http://www.davedraper.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/PmWiki/HipBeltSquats
 >> Stay informed about: Deadlifts and spinal load 

In article ,
Omelet wrote:

> In article ,
> Bob Volkmer wrote:
>
> > > So, I like deads because they work a significant number of muscle groups
> > > in a single move.
> > >
> > > What moves could I substitute without putting additional weight on the
> > > vertical spine?
> > >
> > > For substituting for squats, I'll just continue with the leg press since
> > > it's no longer causing me any problems to use it. Granted, it's not
> > > quite the same, but it's better than nothing. I'm going to be taking a
> > > long look at cable moves since SMAC (the local hard core gym) has a
> > > really complex cable rack that is good for many things.
> > >
> > > Their annual membership is more expensive than the city center, but
> > > still affordable.
> >
> > From my ignorant knowledge, sumo stance deadlift? I do them after
> > normal deadlifts, lower weight but they don't put the same stress on
> > the lower back imo,
> >
> > Bob
>
> Ok, I googled that and the stance is indeed totally different. Looks
> like it works hips and upper back while mostly avoiding spine load.
>
> He did say that deads would be ok if I kept the weight down and did not
> try for heavy lifts. But he'd prefer it if I avoided them totally.
>
> I like to lift heavy; I'm going to have to get over that...

The sumo still loads the spine and causes compression. There is less
sheer force on the spine (if performed properly) and more load on the
hips and gluts.

I can sumo and conventional deadlift virtually the same weight, although
in competition I used a support suit for the sumo and didn't bother for
the conventional. Technique is far more critical for the sumo for
maximal loads. I would pull myself down to the bar and then focus on
driving my hips 'into' the bar - pushing the knees as wide as I could.
If performed right the bar would feel like it was popping off the floor
- even with 600+ on it. Then I would have to fight for the lockout,
which I found tougher.

In the conventional i always felt if I could break it off the floor it
was going to go.

Anyhow - believe me your spine is loaded in the sumo. If the bar is
supported by the hands or shoulders the spine is loaded.

If I were you - belt squats relatively heavy after a suitable adaptation
period and relatively light front squats. If your back rounds at all the
front squat provides feedback.
 >> Stay informed about: Deadlifts and spinal load 

In article ,
Keith wrote:

> > For substituting for squats, I'll just continue with the leg press since
> > it's no longer causing me any problems to use it. Granted, it's not
> > quite the same, but it's better than nothing. I'm going to be taking a
> > long look at cable moves since SMAC (the local hard core gym) has a
> > really complex cable rack that is good for many things.
> >
> > Their annual membership is more expensive than the city center, but
> > still affordable.
>
> Don't go too low or heavy on the leg press. The caveat would be to
> ensure your pelvis doesn't 'tilt' at the bottom of the movement. This
> puts sheer loads on the lumbar spine.
>
> Another option - IMO a better one - is a hip-belt squat.
>
> http://www.davedraper.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/PmWiki/HipBeltSquats

Hm, I'd forgotten about that one. I've seen other guys at the (hard
core) gym doing those. A chain attached to a belt to hold plates.

Thanks!

The back rest on the current machine I am using at city center is
adjustable so I can keep the load off of the lumbar. So far, so good!
--
Peace! Om

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive." -- Dalai Lama
 >> Stay informed about: Deadlifts and spinal load 

In article ,
Keith wrote:

> In article ,
> Omelet wrote:
>
> > In article ,
> > Bob Volkmer wrote:
> >
> > > > So, I like deads because they work a significant number of muscle
> > > > groups
> > > > in a single move.
> > > >
> > > > What moves could I substitute without putting additional weight on the
> > > > vertical spine?
> > > >
> > > > For substituting for squats, I'll just continue with the leg press
> > > > since
> > > > it's no longer causing me any problems to use it. Granted, it's not
> > > > quite the same, but it's better than nothing. I'm going to be taking a
> > > > long look at cable moves since SMAC (the local hard core gym) has a
> > > > really complex cable rack that is good for many things.
> > > >
> > > > Their annual membership is more expensive than the city center, but
> > > > still affordable.
> > >
> > > From my ignorant knowledge, sumo stance deadlift? I do them after
> > > normal deadlifts, lower weight but they don't put the same stress on
> > > the lower back imo,
> > >
> > > Bob
> >
> > Ok, I googled that and the stance is indeed totally different. Looks
> > like it works hips and upper back while mostly avoiding spine load.
> >
> > He did say that deads would be ok if I kept the weight down and did not
> > try for heavy lifts. But he'd prefer it if I avoided them totally.
> >
> > I like to lift heavy; I'm going to have to get over that...
>
> The sumo still loads the spine and causes compression. There is less
> sheer force on the spine (if performed properly) and more load on the
> hips and gluts.

That's what it looked like in the videos. Only the top of the move is
going to load the spine somewhat.

The thing is, if you strengthen the muscles around any joint structure
(including the vertebrae) it should help to protect? Where does one
draw the compromise?

>
> I can sumo and conventional deadlift virtually the same weight, although
> in competition I used a support suit for the sumo and didn't bother for
> the conventional. Technique is far more critical for the sumo for
> maximal loads. I would pull myself down to the bar and then focus on
> driving my hips 'into' the bar - pushing the knees as wide as I could.
> If performed right the bar would feel like it was popping off the floor
> - even with 600+ on it. Then I would have to fight for the lockout,
> which I found tougher.
>
> In the conventional i always felt if I could break it off the floor it
> was going to go.
>
> Anyhow - believe me your spine is loaded in the sumo. If the bar is
> supported by the hands or shoulders the spine is loaded.
>
> If I were you - belt squats relatively heavy after a suitable adaptation
> period and relatively light front squats. If your back rounds at all the
> front squat provides feedback.

Thanks.

I'm just afraid that if I totally wimp out, it'll only hurt me in the
long run. I have to do _something_ to re-strengthen that structure.

Not doing anything will only make it weaker.
--
Peace! Om

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive." -- Dalai Lama
 >> Stay informed about: Deadlifts and spinal load 

Dnia 2008-12-24 Omelet napisa³(a):
> I discussed going back to free weights with my Chiro' yesterday morning
> and getting away from the machines.
>
> He said he felt my spine was finally stable enough to do so as long as I
> was careful.
>
> I then asked about deadlifts.
>
> He feels they'd be a bad idea for me as I already have a significant
> amount of spinal compression in the lower part of my spine. The added
> weight load might make things worse.
>
> Same goes for squats.
>
><sigh>
>
> So, I like deads because they work a significant number of muscle groups
> in a single move.
>
> What moves could I substitute without putting additional weight on the
> vertical spine?

I'd do stepups and glute-ham raises. Stepus are easy, but for GHR you
need either a machine or you need to be able to do natural GHRs somehow.
Unassisted natural GHRs are probably too challenging for most people, so
either figuring a way to assist them or learning how to do challenging
partials is in order.

One way to assist yourself is to use an ab wheel, dumbbells or a
barbell. In all of those the idea is that you hold onto something which
can roll on the floor, and use your abdominal muscles to help you on the
most difficult part of the move, that is at the lowest point.
Progressions should be straightforward to figure out, I think. The
technique for doing challenging partials is maybe less obvious. The
idea is that you lean forward some, then bend at the waist till you
touch the floor. The more you lean the more difficult move you are
doing. I can elaborate if you are interested, but I assure you that
natural GHRs will totally demolish your hams and glutes.

Of course I still think that one-armed deadlifts are a risk worth
taking, but that's up to you.

> For substituting for squats, I'll just continue with the leg press since
> it's no longer causing me any problems to use it. Granted, it's not
> quite the same, but it's better than nothing.

But worse than stepups. For example, where was the last time you had to
perform a move even remotely similar to a leg press IRL? But you do
stepups every time you need to carry something heavy upstairs.

[...]
--
Andrzej Rosa
 >> Stay informed about: Deadlifts and spinal load 

Dnia 2008-12-24 Omelet napisa³(a):
[...]
>> The sumo still loads the spine and causes compression. There is less
>> sheer force on the spine (if performed properly) and more load on the
>> hips and gluts.
>
> That's what it looked like in the videos. Only the top of the move is
> going to load the spine somewhat.
>
> The thing is, if you strengthen the muscles around any joint structure
> (including the vertebrae) it should help to protect? Where does one
> draw the compromise?

Well, you don't need much stabilizing when the load is equally
distributed on your left and right sides. Try to do windmills, like
Steve showed in one of his videos, and next day you'll find a lot of
funny muscles in strange places, all of them sore.

I mean, if it is better for you to forget about squats and deads (which
I think is the right decision), you still can train your spine stabilizing
muscles to your heart's content. Once I used mostly deadlifts to train my
spine, but although I could lift more weight than now (I guess), my
spine was not stronger than it is now. For example I was not able to do
round-back lifting. Now I can. I can lift casks and bags full of
corn from the floor with bent back (you have no choice here) and I
suffer no problems. Somehow one-armed lifts work even better than deads
and squats for me. I see no reason why they shouldn't for you too.

Seriously, get a kettlebell, heh? (Or at least throw some sand into a
bag and see what high rep swings do for you.)

--
Andrzej Rosa
 >> Stay informed about: Deadlifts and spinal load 

"Omelet" wrote in message

>I discussed going back to free weights with my Chiro' yesterday morning
> and getting away from the machines.
>
> He said he felt my spine was finally stable enough to do so as long as I
> was careful.
>
> I then asked about deadlifts.
>
> He feels they'd be a bad idea for me as I already have a significant
> amount of spinal compression in the lower part of my spine. The added
> weight load might make things worse.
>
> Same goes for squats.
>
> <sigh>
>
> So, I like deads because they work a significant number of muscle groups
> in a single move.
>
> What moves could I substitute without putting additional weight on the
> vertical spine?
>
> For substituting for squats, I'll just continue with the leg press since
> it's no longer causing me any problems to use it. Granted, it's not
> quite the same, but it's better than nothing. I'm going to be taking a
> long look at cable moves since SMAC (the local hard core gym) has a
> really complex cable rack that is good for many things.
>
> Their annual membership is more expensive than the city center, but
> still affordable.
> --
> Peace! Om
>
The leg press might not be so good, even if you don't notice immediate
problems. Stuart McGill has done a lot of good work on spinal loading, I was
just re-reading his interviews on T-nation and looking at his site.
www.backfitpro.com
 >> Stay informed about: Deadlifts and spinal load 

"Omelet" wrote in message

>I discussed going back to free weights with my Chiro' yesterday morning
> and getting away from the machines.
>
> He said he felt my spine was finally stable enough to do so as long as
> I
> was careful.
>
> I then asked about deadlifts.
>
> He feels they'd be a bad idea for me as I already have a significant
> amount of spinal compression in the lower part of my spine. The added
> weight load might make things worse.
>
> Same goes for squats.
>
> <sigh>
>
> So, I like deads because they work a significant number of muscle
> groups
> in a single move.

I think your doctor is misguided. Yes, your spine is compressed, but
the amount of time that your spine is loaded during a deadlift is but a
few seconds, and the purpose is to strength your spine. Try a very
simple strategy - hang from a chinup bar or otherwise unload your spine
between sets of deadlifts, a simple but effective way to deal with the
spinal loading.

The whole discussion of loading is a bit too simple. In any deadlift,
you are supporting the load, but there are greater shear forces during
conventional than during sumo, IMHO. But the adage, "what doesn't kill
you makes you stronger" is just as true for deadlifts as it is for
anything else. Find an appropriate weight and rep range for yourself
and deadlift. My only caution is you should keep your sets short, even
doing them as I do, effectively just singles strung together on short
rest. For each rep, reset completely, get your posture exactly how you
want it, perform the lift, and then take a couple of deep breaths before
the next one.

> What moves could I substitute without putting additional weight on the
> vertical spine?
>
> For substituting for squats, I'll just continue with the leg press
> since
> it's no longer causing me any problems to use it. Granted, it's not
> quite the same, but it's better than nothing. I'm going to be taking
> a
> long look at cable moves since SMAC (the local hard core gym) has a
> really complex cable rack that is good for many things.

Please, please, please do not do leg presses. That is a lift that does
place a lot of the wrong kind of load on the spine.

Andrzej has put forth a lot of good ideas for you in this thread - use
some of them. Try, e.g., overhead squats, starting with just a
broomstick - a great way to build stability, and a fantastic lift that,
while it demands a lot of concentration, will do good things for just
about any body.

If I had to pick a single movement to keep my back working well, it
would be the kettlebell swing - nothing else is quite like it. Other
choices would include the kettlebell snatch and the barbell deadlift.

Merry Christmas.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com


> Their annual membership is more expensive than the city center, but
> still affordable.
> --
> Peace! Om
>
> "Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them
> humanity cannot survive." -- Dalai Lama
 >> Stay informed about: Deadlifts and spinal load 

In article ,
Andrzej Rosa wrote:

> Dnia 2008-12-24 Omelet napisa³(a):
> > I discussed going back to free weights with my Chiro' yesterday morning
> > and getting away from the machines.
> >
> > He said he felt my spine was finally stable enough to do so as long as I
> > was careful.
> >
> > I then asked about deadlifts.
> >
> > He feels they'd be a bad idea for me as I already have a significant
> > amount of spinal compression in the lower part of my spine. The added
> > weight load might make things worse.
> >
> > Same goes for squats.
> >
> ><sigh>
> >
> > So, I like deads because they work a significant number of muscle groups
> > in a single move.
> >
> > What moves could I substitute without putting additional weight on the
> > vertical spine?
>
> I'd do stepups and glute-ham raises. Stepus are easy, but for GHR you
> need either a machine or you need to be able to do natural GHRs somehow.
> Unassisted natural GHRs are probably too challenging for most people, so
> either figuring a way to assist them or learning how to do challenging
> partials is in order.

Ok, I looked at those, it looks like a similar move to hamstring curls.

>
> One way to assist yourself is to use an ab wheel, dumbbells or a
> barbell. In all of those the idea is that you hold onto something which
> can roll on the floor, and use your abdominal muscles to help you on the
> most difficult part of the move, that is at the lowest point.
> Progressions should be straightforward to figure out, I think. The
> technique for doing challenging partials is maybe less obvious. The
> idea is that you lean forward some, then bend at the waist till you
> touch the floor. The more you lean the more difficult move you are
> doing. I can elaborate if you are interested, but I assure you that
> natural GHRs will totally demolish your hams and glutes.

I can believe it.

>
> Of course I still think that one-armed deadlifts are a risk worth
> taking, but that's up to you.

Let me think about that, and discuss them with the Chiro'.

>
> > For substituting for squats, I'll just continue with the leg press since
> > it's no longer causing me any problems to use it. Granted, it's not
> > quite the same, but it's better than nothing.
>
> But worse than stepups. For example, where was the last time you had to
> perform a move even remotely similar to a leg press IRL? But you do
> stepups every time you need to carry something heavy upstairs.
>
> [...]

Well, I know that if I increase the weight enough, I really feel them
and get a nice set of DOMS from doing them.

Not that DOMS mean anything...
--
Peace! Om

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive." -- Dalai Lama
 >> Stay informed about: Deadlifts and spinal load 

In article ,
Andrzej Rosa wrote:

> Dnia 2008-12-24 Omelet napisa³(a):
> [...]
> >> The sumo still loads the spine and causes compression. There is less
> >> sheer force on the spine (if performed properly) and more load on the
> >> hips and gluts.
> >
> > That's what it looked like in the videos. Only the top of the move is
> > going to load the spine somewhat.
> >
> > The thing is, if you strengthen the muscles around any joint structure
> > (including the vertebrae) it should help to protect? Where does one
> > draw the compromise?
>
> Well, you don't need much stabilizing when the load is equally
> distributed on your left and right sides. Try to do windmills, like
> Steve showed in one of his videos, and next day you'll find a lot of
> funny muscles in strange places, all of them sore.

I'll have to look at that, thanks.

>
> I mean, if it is better for you to forget about squats and deads (which
> I think is the right decision),

I'm glad you agree.

> you still can train your spine stabilizing
> muscles to your heart's content. Once I used mostly deadlifts to train my
> spine, but although I could lift more weight than now (I guess), my
> spine was not stronger than it is now. For example I was not able to do
> round-back lifting. Now I can. I can lift casks and bags full of
> corn from the floor with bent back (you have no choice here) and I
> suffer no problems. Somehow one-armed lifts work even better than deads
> and squats for me. I see no reason why they shouldn't for you too.
>
> Seriously, get a kettlebell, heh? (Or at least throw some sand into a
> bag and see what high rep swings do for you.)

I have a set of hex dumbells at home. Is a kettle bell really any
different?
--
Peace! Om

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive." -- Dalai Lama
 >> Stay informed about: Deadlifts and spinal load 

In article ,
"ATP*" wrote:

> The leg press might not be so good, even if you don't notice immediate
> problems. Stuart McGill has done a lot of good work on spinal loading, I was
> just re-reading his interviews on T-nation and looking at his site.
> www.backfitpro.com

Thanks for the reminder of that link.
--
Peace! Om

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive." -- Dalai Lama
 >> Stay informed about: Deadlifts and spinal load 

In article ,
"ATP*" wrote:

> The leg press might not be so good, even if you don't notice immediate
> problems. Stuart McGill has done a lot of good work on spinal loading, I was
> just re-reading his interviews on T-nation and looking at his site.
> www.backfitpro.com

I just wish that the ONLY problem was the degenerated lumbar.
The scoliosis causing the pelvic tilt (that might not be able to be
corrected at my age) seems to be the biggest problem It just throws
everything out of balance...

That's the big thing is trying to work around that.
--
Peace! Om

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive." -- Dalai Lama
 >> Stay informed about: Deadlifts and spinal load