Deadlift by Pavel

On Fri, 19 Jan 2007, ee wrote:

> 1. Don't look down as you grasp the bar. Instead, keep your eyes on
> the ceiling.

Do KBers do special optic nerve-lengthening exercises to allow them to do
this?

> 2. Stand without the weight between every rep.

I've heard of people doing sets as sequences of singles before - i guess
this is that. Presumably, it shifts the exercise to work more like
singles, focusing more on limit strength and less on endurance or
mass-building.

> 3. Put the weight down quickly, nearly dropping it, to avoid injury and
> muscle build up.

Avoiding muscle build up is a pretty unorthodox goal for deadlifts. That
crazy Russian!

tom

--
One of the principal objects of theoretical research in my department
of knowledge is to find the point of view from which the subject appears
in its greatest simplicity. -- Josiah Willard Gibbs
 >> Stay informed about: Deadlift by Pavel 

In article <Pine.LNX.4.62.0701191742040.21070.RemoveThis@urchin.earth.li>,
Tom Anderson <twic.RemoveThis@urchin.earth.li> wrote:

> On Fri, 19 Jan 2007, ee wrote:
>
> > 1. Don't look down as you grasp the bar. Instead, keep your eyes on
> > the ceiling.
>
> Do KBers do special optic nerve-lengthening exercises to allow them to do
> this?

Actually there is little need to look down if you have positioned
yourself properly. But I think his idea is to keep the back flat through
proper head positioning.
>
> > 2. Stand without the weight between every rep.
>
> I've heard of people doing sets as sequences of singles before - i guess
> this is that. Presumably, it shifts the exercise to work more like
> singles, focusing more on limit strength and less on endurance or
> mass-building.

Hmmm. Yeah.
>
> > 3. Put the weight down quickly, nearly dropping it, to avoid injury and
> > muscle build up.
>
> Avoiding muscle build up is a pretty unorthodox goal for deadlifts. That
> crazy Russian!

Not to mention that putting weight down quickly will get you thrown out
of some gyms.

--
Keith
 >> Stay informed about: Deadlift by Pavel 

"ee" <ekurth.TakeThisOut@broadcom.com> wrote in message
news:1169229407.349837.305440@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
>
> Bully wrote:
>> In news:1169227529.265729.194180@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,
>> ee <ekurth.TakeThisOut@broadcom.com> typed:
>> > Hello,
>> >
>> > I recently read Pavel's "Power to the People" and started deadlifting.
>> > He has
>> > some interesting tips with regard to the lift and I wonder what others
>> > think of
>> > them.
>> >
>> > 1. Don't look down as you grasp the bar.
>>
>> You NEED to look down as you grasp the bar to ensure your grip is even.
>> If
>> he means don't look down as you lift the bar then he is correct & as long
>> as
>> you keep your head up, you can look whereever you like [although best not
>> to
>> try and look at the honey behind you!].
>>
>> > Instead, keep your eyes on
>> > the ceiling.
>> > 2. Stand without the weight between every rep.
>>
>> What, you have a rest between each rep. To what purpose?
>>
>> > 3. Put the weight down quickly, nearly dropping it, to avoid injury
>> > and muscle build up.
>>
>> WTF is muscle build up?
>>
>> >
>> > I don't see this advice echoed in other sources or in video so I
>> > wondered if others
>> > do it this way.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Eric
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bully
>> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>>
>> "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
>> the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
>
> Thanks for the response, Bully.
>
> Pavel says to reach down for the bar without looking at it, and if you
> wind up
> not gripping it evenly by a little bit, it's not a big deal.

That's just nuts. The other two rules you've cited are silly, IMHO, but the
idea that it doesn't matter if your grip is uneven on a deadlift is just
nuts.

ep
 >> Stay informed about: Deadlift by Pavel 

In news:1169227529.265729.194180@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,
ee <ekurth.DeleteThis@broadcom.com> typed:
> Hello,
>
> I recently read Pavel's "Power to the People" and started deadlifting.
> He has
> some interesting tips with regard to the lift and I wonder what others
> think of
> them.
>
> 1. Don't look down as you grasp the bar.

You NEED to look down as you grasp the bar to ensure your grip is even. If
he means don't look down as you lift the bar then he is correct & as long as
you keep your head up, you can look whereever you like [although best not to
try and look at the honey behind you!].

> Instead, keep your eyes on
> the ceiling.
> 2. Stand without the weight between every rep.

What, you have a rest between each rep. To what purpose?

> 3. Put the weight down quickly, nearly dropping it, to avoid injury
> and muscle build up.

WTF is muscle build up?

>
> I don't see this advice echoed in other sources or in video so I
> wondered if others
> do it this way.
>
> Regards,
> Eric



--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
 >> Stay informed about: Deadlift by Pavel 

"ee" <ekurth.DeleteThis@broadcom.com> schreef:

> Pavel says to reach down for the bar without looking at it, and if you
> wind up not gripping it evenly by a little bit, it's not a big deal.

Excuse me?

> But your suggestion to look down and get centered is a lot more natural.

I would say.

Funny how that works, eh?

> He suggests standing between each rep so that your back doesn't tire
> quicker than anything else.

> The negative of the rep is often thought to add muscle bulk. Pavel's
> not so much into that. The wiry guys who weight a buck-fifty and pull
> 600 pounds in a deadlift are the people he respects the most.

Tyrone, the big black dude who is 320 pounds, who got a 30 year sentence,
also admires skinny white guys.

At least, those are the rumours.

--
Pete, The New & Improved Version

"Take your own advice: killfile. I took your advice on that subject BTW.
Your turn dude" -- Will Brink

"Problem is, I still see his/their posts 'cause
you respond to them, and that throws the balance of the universe of" -- Will
Brink
 >> Stay informed about: Deadlift by Pavel 

In news:1169229407.349837.305440@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com,
ee <ekurth DeleteThis @broadcom.com> typed:
> Bully wrote:
>> In news:1169227529.265729.194180@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,
>> ee <ekurth DeleteThis @broadcom.com> typed:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I recently read Pavel's "Power to the People" and started
>>> deadlifting. He has
>>> some interesting tips with regard to the lift and I wonder what
>>> others think of
>>> them.
>>>
>>> 1. Don't look down as you grasp the bar.
>>
>> You NEED to look down as you grasp the bar to ensure your grip is
>> even. If he means don't look down as you lift the bar then he is
>> correct & as long as you keep your head up, you can look whereever
>> you like [although best not to try and look at the honey behind
>> you!].
>>
>>> Instead, keep your eyes on
>>> the ceiling.
>>> 2. Stand without the weight between every rep.
>>
>> What, you have a rest between each rep. To what purpose?
>>
>>> 3. Put the weight down quickly, nearly dropping it, to avoid injury
>>> and muscle build up.
>>
>> WTF is muscle build up?
>>
>>>
>>> I don't see this advice echoed in other sources or in video so I
>>> wondered if others
>>> do it this way.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Eric
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bully
>> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>>
>> "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist
>> sees
>> the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
>
> Thanks for the response, Bully.
>
> Pavel says to reach down for the bar without looking at it, and if you
> wind up
> not gripping it evenly by a little bit, it's not a big deal.

Well, yes it is.

> But your
> suggestion to look down and get centered is a lot more natural.
>
> He suggests standing between each rep so that your back doesn't tire
> quicker than anything else.

It's a back exercise, right? So isn't the intention to work your back more
than anything else?

>
> The negative of the rep is often thought to add muscle bulk. Pavel's
> not so much into that. The wiry guys who weight a buck-fifty and pull
> 600 pounds in a deadlift are the people he respects the most.

Please name names!

>
> Eric



--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
 >> Stay informed about: Deadlift by Pavel 

"Bully" <bully19 RemoveThis @proteinbars.co.ok> schreef:

>> Pavel says to reach down for the bar without looking at it, and if you
>> wind up
>> not gripping it evenly by a little bit, it's not a big deal.

> Well, yes it is.

Olympic liftters often place their hands with millimeter accuracy.

Pavel is insane if he really said such a thing.

>> But your
>> suggestion to look down and get centered is a lot more natural.

>> He suggests standing between each rep so that your back doesn't tire
>> quicker than anything else.

> It's a back exercise, right? So isn't the intention to work your back more
> than anything else?

No comment.

>> The negative of the rep is often thought to add muscle bulk. Pavel's
>> not so much into that. The wiry guys who weight a buck-fifty and pull
>> 600 pounds in a deadlift are the people he respects the most.

> Please name names!

Yeah!

Tyrone recently bought a computer.

--
Pete, The New & Improved Version

"Take your own advice: killfile. I took your advice on that subject BTW.
Your turn dude" -- Will Brink

"Problem is, I still see his/their posts 'cause
you respond to them, and that throws the balance of the universe of" -- Will
Brink
 >> Stay informed about: Deadlift by Pavel 

On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 17:38:56 -0000, "Bully"
<bully19.TakeThisOut@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>In news:1169227529.265729.194180@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,
>ee <ekurth.TakeThisOut@broadcom.com> typed:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I recently read Pavel's "Power to the People" and started deadlifting.
>> He has
>> some interesting tips with regard to the lift and I wonder what others
>> think of
>> them.
>>
>> 1. Don't look down as you grasp the bar.
>
>You NEED to look down as you grasp the bar to ensure your grip is even. If
>he means don't look down as you lift the bar then he is correct & as long as
>you keep your head up, you can look whereever you like [although best not to
>try and look at the honey behind you!].

Not really. Some of the best deadlifters use this technique and Pavel
isn't the first to advocate doing it. Actually, the important part
isn't gripping the bar without looking. It is dropping and grabbing
the bar as quickly as possible and starting the pull immediately.
There is no reason one couldn't watch the bar on the way down, grip,
pull into position and rip the bar up. You would then have the extra
step of pulling oneself into position though which may or may not
affect the stretch reflex.

Here's more information on the technique:
http://www.usapowerlifting.com/newsletter/29/coaching/coaching.html

>
>> Instead, keep your eyes on
>> the ceiling.
>> 2. Stand without the weight between every rep.
>
>What, you have a rest between each rep. To what purpose?

Here he is just being a moron.

>
>> 3. Put the weight down quickly, nearly dropping it, to avoid injury
>> and muscle build up.
>
>WTF is muscle build up?

Putting the weight down quickly after a 1RM, especially in
competition, is a good thing. Doing it between reps in training is
just stupid. Muscle build up is a good thing. Everything else being
equal, the guy with the most muscle gets laid more often.

>
>>
>> I don't see this advice echoed in other sources or in video so I
>> wondered if others
>> do it this way.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Eric
 >> Stay informed about: Deadlift by Pavel 

"Edna Pearl" <edna_pearl.RemoveThis@yahoo.BiteMeSpammer.com> wrote in message
news:Atcsh.128$p%6.3@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
> "ee" <ekurth.RemoveThis@broadcom.com> wrote in message
> news:1169229407.349837.305440@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> Bully wrote:
>>> In news:1169227529.265729.194180@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,
>>> ee <ekurth.RemoveThis@broadcom.com> typed:
>>> > Hello,
>>> >
>>> > I recently read Pavel's "Power to the People" and started
>>> > deadlifting.
>>> > He has
>>> > some interesting tips with regard to the lift and I wonder what
>>> > others
>>> > think of
>>> > them.
>>> >
>>> > 1. Don't look down as you grasp the bar.
>>>
>>> You NEED to look down as you grasp the bar to ensure your grip is
>>> even. If
>>> he means don't look down as you lift the bar then he is correct & as
>>> long as
>>> you keep your head up, you can look whereever you like [although
>>> best not to
>>> try and look at the honey behind you!].
>>>
>>> > Instead, keep your eyes on
>>> > the ceiling.
>>> > 2. Stand without the weight between every rep.
>>>
>>> What, you have a rest between each rep. To what purpose?
>>>
>>> > 3. Put the weight down quickly, nearly dropping it, to avoid
>>> > injury
>>> > and muscle build up.
>>>
>>> WTF is muscle build up?
>>>
>>> >
>>> > I don't see this advice echoed in other sources or in video so I
>>> > wondered if others
>>> > do it this way.
>>> >
>>> > Regards,
>>> > Eric
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Bully
>>> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>>>
>>> "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist
>>> sees
>>> the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
>>
>> Thanks for the response, Bully.
>>
>> Pavel says to reach down for the bar without looking at it, and if
>> you
>> wind up
>> not gripping it evenly by a little bit, it's not a big deal.
>
> That's just nuts. The other two rules you've cited are silly, IMHO,
> but the idea that it doesn't matter if your grip is uneven on a
> deadlift is just nuts.

No, it all really works fine, honest. I never look at the bar and have
been deadlifting for several years this way. I also always stand up
between reps - better for good form, better practice for a meet, and
better to avoid the negative which has increased potential for both
hypertrophy and injury, neither of which I'm interested in.

I also "fall with the weight" as Pavel advocates, I don't drop the bar.
I do this in competition exactly as I do it in training, and I've never
been redlighted for this reason. As long as demonstrate you've in
control of the bar and the situation, you're OK.

If you look up, you're more likely to keep your back straighter, a very
good thing for "The People" who are getting started deadlifting. OTOH,
most experienced DL'ers (please note that I said most, and not "all")
will be able to pull more weight by starting their conventional DL
focused on the floor a couple of meters in front of them and not up. I
don't know all the kinesiology here but I believe it's been documented.
The tradeoff is that it's much easier to find yourself bending your
lower back the wrong way when you look slightly down to start instead of
more upwards.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com
 >> Stay informed about: Deadlift by Pavel 

"Steve Freides" <steve DeleteThis @fridayscomputer.com> wrote in message
news:51f8a5F1k17j6U1@mid.individual.net...
> "Edna Pearl" <edna_pearl DeleteThis @yahoo.BiteMeSpammer.com> wrote in message
> news:Atcsh.128$p%6.3@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>> "ee" <ekurth DeleteThis @broadcom.com> wrote in message
>> news:1169229407.349837.305440@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>> Bully wrote:
>>>> In news:1169227529.265729.194180@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,
>>>> ee <ekurth DeleteThis @broadcom.com> typed:
>>>> > Hello,
>>>> >
>>>> > I recently read Pavel's "Power to the People" and started
>>>> > deadlifting.
>>>> > He has
>>>> > some interesting tips with regard to the lift and I wonder what
>>>> > others
>>>> > think of
>>>> > them.
>>>> >
>>>> > 1. Don't look down as you grasp the bar.
>>>>
>>>> You NEED to look down as you grasp the bar to ensure your grip is even.
>>>> If
>>>> he means don't look down as you lift the bar then he is correct & as
>>>> long as
>>>> you keep your head up, you can look whereever you like [although best
>>>> not to
>>>> try and look at the honey behind you!].
>>>>
>>>> > Instead, keep your eyes on
>>>> > the ceiling.
>>>> > 2. Stand without the weight between every rep.
>>>>
>>>> What, you have a rest between each rep. To what purpose?
>>>>
>>>> > 3. Put the weight down quickly, nearly dropping it, to avoid injury
>>>> > and muscle build up.
>>>>
>>>> WTF is muscle build up?
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> > I don't see this advice echoed in other sources or in video so I
>>>> > wondered if others
>>>> > do it this way.
>>>> >
>>>> > Regards,
>>>> > Eric
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Bully
>>>> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>>>>
>>>> "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
>>>> the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
>>>
>>> Thanks for the response, Bully.
>>>
>>> Pavel says to reach down for the bar without looking at it, and if you
>>> wind up
>>> not gripping it evenly by a little bit, it's not a big deal.
>>
>> That's just nuts. The other two rules you've cited are silly, IMHO, but
>> the idea that it doesn't matter if your grip is uneven on a deadlift is
>> just nuts.
>
> No, it all really works fine, honest. I never look at the bar and have
> been deadlifting for several years this way. I also always stand up
> between reps - better for good form, better practice for a meet, and
> better to avoid the negative which has increased potential for both
> hypertrophy and injury, neither of which I'm interested in.
>
> I also "fall with the weight" as Pavel advocates, I don't drop the bar. I
> do this in competition exactly as I do it in training, and I've never been
> redlighted for this reason. As long as demonstrate you've in control of
> the bar and the situation, you're OK.
>
> If you look up, you're more likely to keep your back straighter, a very
> good thing for "The People" who are getting started deadlifting. OTOH,
> most experienced DL'ers (please note that I said most, and not "all") will
> be able to pull more weight by starting their conventional DL focused on
> the floor a couple of meters in front of them and not up. I don't know
> all the kinesiology here but I believe it's been documented. The tradeoff
> is that it's much easier to find yourself bending your lower back the
> wrong way when you look slightly down to start instead of more upwards.

Steve, I'm not debating the fact that it's a good idea to keep your eyes up,
and thus your head erect, *while* you're deadlifting. As you say, of
course, obviously, looking up makes it harder to arch and thus injure your
back while you're deadlifting.

What I'm taking issue with is the notion that, as the OP said Pavel says, is
that you should not look down at the bar *before* you start the lift because
it's "no big deal" if your grip is uneven. First, I cannot fathom why it
would do any harm whatsoever to look down at the bar *before* you deadlift.
Second, it can definitely be a very big deal if you *start* lifting with the
bar significantly off-center. Looking down at the bar to position yourself
*before* you lift can help prevent you from injuring yourself by trying to
lift a heavy bar off-center *during* your lift.

For example, (1) I look down at the bar to position myself *before* I
deadlift, (2) then I look dead ahead while I mentally check my posture, (3)
then keep I my eyes dead ahead *while* I deadlift. The idea that I should
skip step (1), as the OP says Pavel recommends, is asinine.

ep
 >> Stay informed about: Deadlift by Pavel 

"John Hanson" <jhanson.TakeThisOut@northernlinks.com> wrote in message
news:i6p4r25n53actfktee1sn21h2r3v09k3l2@4ax.com...
> Actually, the important part
> isn't gripping the bar without looking. It is dropping and grabbing
> the bar as quickly as possible and starting the pull immediately.

Now, *that* makes sense.

> There is no reason one couldn't watch the bar on the way down, grip,
> pull into position and rip the bar up. You would then have the extra
> step of pulling oneself into position though which may or may not
> affect the stretch reflex.
>
> Here's more information on the technique:
> http://www.usapowerlifting.com/newsletter/29/coaching/coaching.html

I notice that the writer does not forbid looking down as the OP suggested
Pavel does, and the writer does not suggest that "it's no big" deal you grab
the bar off-center. On the contrary, the writer notes that it takes
practice to learn to grab the bar perfectly but quickly (in the penultimate
paragraph).

ep
 >> Stay informed about: Deadlift by Pavel 

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 14:31:17 -0600, "Edna Pearl"
<edna_pearl.DeleteThis@yahoo.BiteMeSpammer.com> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>"John Hanson" <jhanson.DeleteThis@northernlinks.com> wrote in message
>news:i6p4r25n53actfktee1sn21h2r3v09k3l2@4ax.com...
>> Actually, the important part
>> isn't gripping the bar without looking. It is dropping and grabbing
>> the bar as quickly as possible and starting the pull immediately.
>
>Now, *that* makes sense.
>
>> There is no reason one couldn't watch the bar on the way down, grip,
>> pull into position and rip the bar up. You would then have the extra
>> step of pulling oneself into position though which may or may not
>> affect the stretch reflex.
>>
>> Here's more information on the technique:
>> http://www.usapowerlifting.com/newsletter/29/coaching/coaching.html
>
>I notice that the writer does not forbid looking down as the OP suggested
>Pavel does, and the writer does not suggest that "it's no big" deal you grab
>the bar off-center. On the contrary, the writer notes that it takes
>practice to learn to grab the bar perfectly but quickly (in the penultimate
>paragraph).
>
It should also be noted that the writer is the coach for the US
women's team and the personal coach of Priscilla Ribic, the best drug
free woman powerlifter in the world.
 >> Stay informed about: Deadlift by Pavel 

Tom Anderson <twic RemoveThis @urchin.earth.li> wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Jan 2007, ee wrote:

>> 1. Don't look down as you grasp the bar. Instead, keep your eyes on
>> the ceiling.

> Do KBers do special optic nerve-lengthening exercises to allow them to do
> this?

You could always tie bits of string or tape on the bar, so you could
feel instead of looking. If accuracy matters than that method would be
more accurate than looking, because you could do it by measurement.

>> 2. Stand without the weight between every rep.

> I've heard of people doing sets as sequences of singles before - i guess
> this is that. Presumably, it shifts the exercise to work more like
> singles, focusing more on limit strength and less on endurance or
> mass-building.

It also gives the discs a breather of a ROM without load to recover
from the compression load, which could reduce the risks of disc
injury.

>> 3. Put the weight down quickly, nearly dropping it, to avoid injury and
>> muscle build up.

> Avoiding muscle build up is a pretty unorthodox goal for deadlifts. That
> crazy Russian!

He specifically wants to develop the most efficient muscle, not the
largest muscle. He's into performance, not appearance, and being able
to lift the same weight with smaller muscles, even if they take longer
to develop, means you'll have a higher performance on body weight
exercises, running, etc.. He comes from more of a martial arts
tradition than competitive weight lifting or body building.

--
Chris Malcolm cam RemoveThis @infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
 >> Stay informed about: Deadlift by Pavel