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Proctologically Violated©
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External
Since: Nov 01, 2006
Posts: 123
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 5:12 pm
Post subject: DB clean&jerk, vs. bar
Archived from groups: misc>fitness>weights (more info?)
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First Q: I don't do real c&j's but modified:
Lift the bar *slowly* off the ground, to thigh level; "clean" the bar from
thigh to chest; then press up for light weights, jerk up for heavier.
What would you call this? Modified c&j? Wussy c&j? touchy back,
donchaknow...
OK....
Second Q: So, for people with touchy backs, wouldn't this be better to do
with db's, as the back could be kept much straighter?
And just as effective (if not moreso), from a training pov, requiring more
stabilization?
Pros/Cons?
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!
entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs |
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External
Since: Oct 29, 2005
Posts: 614
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:07 am
Post subject: Re: DB clean&jerk, vs. bar [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Dnia 2006-11-29 Proctologically Violated©® napisał(a):
> First Q: I don't do real c&j's but modified:
> Lift the bar *slowly* off the ground, to thigh level; "clean" the bar from
> thigh to chest; then press up for light weights, jerk up for heavier.
> What would you call this? Modified c&j? Wussy c&j? touchy back,
> donchaknow...
> OK....
>
> Second Q: So, for people with touchy backs, wouldn't this be better to do
> with db's, as the back could be kept much straighter?
I don't think so. Actually I think that to press dumbbells overhead it
takes more bend in the back than with a bar. One has to keep arms
perfectly vertical, which for many people with limited shoulder
flexibility would mean more arch in lumbar region of spine.
> And just as effective (if not moreso), from a training pov, requiring more
> stabilization?
> Pros/Cons?
There are two ways to C&J dumbbells. One is to "curl" dumbbells up
and start the jerk from a curl-like rack position. I see no advantages
here. With fixed weight dumbbells one is able to "stand" dumbbells on
their ends on ones shoulders, elbows high and out (I can find pictures,
if need be). Leg drive helps here more than with "curl' style and if
you are able to clean challenging weight fine, but the jerk is a problem,
this style might help.
Anyway, I'd use one-armed version of the movement. First pull is easy,
because you may use your free hand on corresponding knee for
assistance. Explosive part would be easier too, because you'll have to
clean less weight and still your free hand will help a little. Press
or jerk will be safer, because one doesn't need much flexibility with
only one arm overhead. A set of 5 C&J per side will definitely burn
more calories than a set of 5 barbell C&J. And here due to
asymmetrical load you'll actually do have some substantial stabilizer
activation; especially in your core, but also in your shoulder girdle,
due to higher weight per hand used.
Last but not least - one-armed lifting is great for bad backs. Really.
It's safe, yet productive. Ask Steve Freides.
--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R |
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Proctologically ViolatedC
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External
Since: Nov 01, 2006
Posts: 7
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:07 am
Post subject: Re: DB clean&jerk, vs. bar [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Very good points and insights.
Even w/o trying it yet, I can see that the one-armed version would be much
better for me.
Pseudo-kettlebells? 
There was a debate some time ago on mfm (and maybe here) whether single
large dbs were basically the same as kbs. Of course, the kb peeple said no,
but not entirely convincingly.
I'm sure there are diffs, but I doubt whether they would amount to much for
the generally fitness-minded person.
And actually, you just saved me a fair amount of cash, as now I don't have
to buy these big-assed dbs in pairs!
Is there a name for the barbell lift as I currently do it?
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!
entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs
"Andrzej Rosa" <bakters RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:eklotp$egs$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
> Dnia 2006-11-29 Proctologically Violated©® napisał(a):
>> First Q: I don't do real c&j's but modified:
>> Lift the bar *slowly* off the ground, to thigh level; "clean" the bar
>> from
>> thigh to chest; then press up for light weights, jerk up for heavier.
>> What would you call this? Modified c&j? Wussy c&j? touchy back,
>> donchaknow...
>> OK....
>>
>> Second Q: So, for people with touchy backs, wouldn't this be better to
>> do
>> with db's, as the back could be kept much straighter?
>
> I don't think so. Actually I think that to press dumbbells overhead it
> takes more bend in the back than with a bar. One has to keep arms
> perfectly vertical, which for many people with limited shoulder
> flexibility would mean more arch in lumbar region of spine.
>
>> And just as effective (if not moreso), from a training pov, requiring
>> more
>> stabilization?
>> Pros/Cons?
>
> There are two ways to C&J dumbbells. One is to "curl" dumbbells up
> and start the jerk from a curl-like rack position. I see no advantages
> here. With fixed weight dumbbells one is able to "stand" dumbbells on
> their ends on ones shoulders, elbows high and out (I can find pictures,
> if need be). Leg drive helps here more than with "curl' style and if
> you are able to clean challenging weight fine, but the jerk is a problem,
> this style might help.
>
> Anyway, I'd use one-armed version of the movement. First pull is easy,
> because you may use your free hand on corresponding knee for
> assistance. Explosive part would be easier too, because you'll have to
> clean less weight and still your free hand will help a little. Press
> or jerk will be safer, because one doesn't need much flexibility with
> only one arm overhead. A set of 5 C&J per side will definitely burn
> more calories than a set of 5 barbell C&J. And here due to
> asymmetrical load you'll actually do have some substantial stabilizer
> activation; especially in your core, but also in your shoulder girdle,
> due to higher weight per hand used.
>
> Last but not least - one-armed lifting is great for bad backs. Really.
> It's safe, yet productive. Ask Steve Freides.
>
> --
> Andrzej Rosa 1127R
> >> Stay informed about: DB clean&jerk, vs. bar |
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External
Since: Oct 04, 2006
Posts: 514
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:38 am
Post subject: Re: DB clean&jerk, vs. bar [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
> First Q: I don't do real c&j's but modified:
> Lift the bar *slowly* off the ground, to thigh level;
AKA deadlift.
> "clean" the bar from thigh to chest;
Reverse curl.
> then press up for light weights,
Push press.
> jerk up for heavier. What would you call this? Modified c&j? Wussy c&j?
> touchy back,
> donchaknow...
> OK....
>
> Second Q: So, for people with touchy backs,
What is a touchy back?
> wouldn't this be better
> to do with db's, as the back could be kept much straighter?
> And just as effective
Effective for what? Power, strength, hypertrophy?
> (if not moreso), from a training pov, requiring
> more stabilization?
> Pros/Cons?
--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss >> Stay informed about: DB clean&jerk, vs. bar |
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External
Since: Oct 29, 2005
Posts: 614
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:57 pm
Post subject: Re: DB clean&jerk, vs. bar [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Dnia 2006-11-30 Proctologically ViolatedCR napisał(a):
> Very good points and insights.
> Even w/o trying it yet, I can see that the one-armed version would be much
> better for me.
> Pseudo-kettlebells?
No. Kettlebells are worse, but with good coaching and persistance one
is able to do something of value with them too.
> There was a debate some time ago on mfm (and maybe here) whether single
> large dbs were basically the same as kbs. Of course, the kb peeple said no,
> but not entirely convincingly.
Dumbbells aren't the same. They tax your grip more, due to their tendency
to roll out of hand. They are more versatile, they are more
adjustable, they are way cheaper, they do not tear your hands into
shreds, they take less place.
> I'm sure there are diffs, but I doubt whether they would amount to much for
> the generally fitness-minded person.
They do. You won't be able to snatch a kettlebell without a lot of
training, for example. Dumbbell snatch is quite straightforward.
> And actually, you just saved me a fair amount of cash, as now I don't have
> to buy these big-assed dbs in pairs!
>
> Is there a name for the barbell lift as I currently do it?
Hang-clean and press or jerk, but I rather think that you do push-press
instead of jerk..
--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R >> Stay informed about: DB clean&jerk, vs. bar |
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Proctologically ViolatedC
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External
Since: Nov 01, 2006
Posts: 7
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:06 pm
Post subject: Re: DB clean&jerk, vs. bar [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ekmv17$c22$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
> Dnia 2006-11-30 Proctologically ViolatedCR napisał(a):
>> Very good points and insights.
>> Even w/o trying it yet, I can see that the one-armed version would be
>> much
>> better for me.
>> Pseudo-kettlebells?
>
> No. Kettlebells are worse, but with good coaching and persistance one
> is able to do something of value with them too.
>
>> There was a debate some time ago on mfm (and maybe here) whether single
>> large dbs were basically the same as kbs. Of course, the kb peeple said
>> no,
>> but not entirely convincingly.
>
> Dumbbells aren't the same. They tax your grip more, due to their tendency
> to roll out of hand. They are more versatile, they are more
> adjustable, they are way cheaper, they do not tear your hands into
> shreds, they take less place.
>
>> I'm sure there are diffs, but I doubt whether they would amount to much
>> for
>> the generally fitness-minded person.
>
> They do. You won't be able to snatch a kettlebell without a lot of
> training, for example. Dumbbell snatch is quite straightforward.
By diffs, I meant benefits. I'm guessing that for the average person,
they'd probably be better off w/ dbs than kbs, for the reasons you mentioned
above. Straightforward = good.
>
>> And actually, you just saved me a fair amount of cash, as now I don't
>> have
>> to buy these big-assed dbs in pairs!
>>
>> Is there a name for the barbell lift as I currently do it?
>
> Hang-clean and press or jerk, but I rather think that you do push-press
> instead of jerk..
Well, half-assed jerks Much more difficult than it looks. Fun, tho.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!
entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs
>
> --
> Andrzej Rosa 1127R
> >> Stay informed about: DB clean&jerk, vs. bar |
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External
Since: Oct 29, 2005
Posts: 614
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:49 pm
Post subject: Re: DB clean&jerk, vs. bar [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Dnia 2006-11-30 Proctologically ViolatedCR napisał(a):
>
>> Hang-clean and press or jerk, but I rather think that you do push-press
>> instead of jerk..
>
> Well, half-assed jerks Much more difficult than it looks. Fun, tho.
If you dip under the bar, they are jerks of sorts. If you just use
your leg drive, but do no dip, then they are push presses of sorts.
Best luck with whatever version you choose to use.
--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R >> Stay informed about: DB clean&jerk, vs. bar |
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Proctologically ViolatedC
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External
Since: Nov 01, 2006
Posts: 7
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:49 pm
Post subject: Re: DB clean&jerk, vs. bar [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
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"Andrzej Rosa" <bakters.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:eknn5a$aca$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
> Dnia 2006-11-30 Proctologically ViolatedCR napisał(a):
>>
>>> Hang-clean and press or jerk, but I rather think that you do push-press
>>> instead of jerk..
>>
>> Well, half-assed jerks Much more difficult than it looks. Fun, tho.
>
> If you dip under the bar, they are jerks of sorts. If you just use
> your leg drive, but do no dip, then they are push presses of sorts.
>
> Best luck with whatever version you choose to use.
Actually, I do all three, as fatigue dictates.
All your observations are very helpful, tho.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!
entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs
>
> --
> Andrzej Rosa 1127R
> >> Stay informed about: DB clean&jerk, vs. bar |
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External
Since: Nov 14, 2006
Posts: 30
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:03 am
Post subject: Re: DB clean&jerk, vs. bar [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
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Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
> First Q: I don't do real c&j's but modified:
> Lift the bar *slowly* off the ground, to thigh level; "clean" the bar from
> thigh to chest; then press up for light weights, jerk up for heavier.
> What would you call this? Modified c&j? Wussy c&j? touchy back,
> donchaknow...
> OK....
If you're squatting under to receive the clean, it's a clean; if you're
not doing the full squat under, it's a power clean. If you're
pressing, it's a press; if you're jerking, it's a jerk. No, really,
I'm being serious.
So you would be doing a power clean and press (I'm thinking you're
probably not doing a full squat clean), or a power clean and jerk.
> Second Q: So, for people with touchy backs, wouldn't this be better to do
> with db's, as the back could be kept much straighter?
The back is "straight" during a bb clean, too, meaning spine should be
neutral throughout the movement. I think what you're trying to say is
there is less hip extension required by using db instead of bb. The
answer, of course, is it depends ($1 to Lyle).
> And just as effective (if not moreso), from a training pov, requiring more
> stabilization?
> Pros/Cons?
I don't thinnk it would be more or less effective, just different.
Pros, even greater coordination required. Cons, inability to rack the
db on the delts can make it hard on the wrists. I'm sure there are
more, but that's all I have the inclination to come up with. 
ps >> Stay informed about: DB clean&jerk, vs. bar |
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